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This "fatpack" madness should be stopped...


Faly Breen
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(JUST a small word before, i duno if im "right" to put such topic in this channel since i duno, this is my first post here so im sorry if im wrong in this channel!)

I dont wanna begin to talk around to long about the topic but go with a sample and try to make it understandable:

Since some years, it feels like creators create X variations from one dress and, to keep the sample simple, it mostly is just the color.

To STAY simple, lets go with a full dress for females here. Said dress can be bought in red, blue, green and yellow - at least if you want one of those colors.

BUT what if you want, as sample, the dress in black or white..or both? Than, you mostly end up that you have to pay for a fatpack because the creator doesnt sell those alone.

 

I know this might sound like nitpicking but nowadays a lot people dont sell their stuff moddable anymore and to already high prices and than "basically" forcing you to buy a fatpack for the "color" you want seems like an very unfair play here. Im not talking about "special color/textures only made for me", im mean plain simple textured color differances. I mean, again, why do i need to pay for the fatpack if i only wanted the color BLACK/WHITE and no other? I dont want violet, i dont want dark green, i dont want the fatpack but just the Black/White version, thats all.

 

Here a small last addition. I could proof a lot samples here viva pictures but i dont think i wanna nameshame people here so i sure cant show pictures of stores/creators without basicly "shaming" them, i guess its understandable somewhat but even without pictures im sure people understand what im talking about...

 

EDIT: i made this a bit more clear in a sample in a later comment you can read here:

 

Edited by Faly Breen
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I think there is a difference between a Fat Pack and an item which comes with a texture/colour hud for basically the same price you would pay for one item.  I agree it is annoying to have to buy a full fat pack to get one colour you want that is not offered separately.  Personally I do not think that is fair but a lot of creators do that.  Fat packs as a rule are expensive, can be upwards of 500 L or more.  As a shopper I will usually pass on those.  That is one of the reasons as a creator I include many textures or colour change choices on a hud and sell it for somewhere between 250 L and 350 L because I would pay that much to get the option of more choices.  I do not sell separates anymore (some of my older stuff I did) because I feel to pay for a single would cost almost as much as the item with a hud, 

But there are many opinions about this.  That is mine.  I guess I am trying to work on some sort of middle ground.

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I totally agree and many stores lose my business because I simply won't buy it at all then. Now, they may not care because other's are paying for the fatpacks but I rarely will buy a fatpack. Unless it's a pant/top/boot combo.  If it's a simple dress I may want one or two colors and if I can't buy those I will move on to a store that I can.  TBH, clothes really are not that unique here where you can't find something similar in the color you want. Even when I have broke down and bought a fatpack I still rarely wear the other colors unless going to a theme event or something like that.

Edited by Sam1 Bellisserian
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It all depends on the store.  I WILL not, as the OP described, be forced to buy a pack in order to get black or white.  ISON does a.great job with his packs.  Or you can buy basic singles.  I wish more.stores followed his model.

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42 minutes ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

I think there is a difference between a Fat Pack and an item which comes with a texture/colour hud for basically the same price you would pay for one item.  I agree it is annoying to have to buy a full fat pack to get one colour you want that is not offered separately.  Personally I do not think that is fair but a lot of creators do that.  Fat packs as a rule are expensive, can be upwards of 500 L or more.  As a shopper I will usually pass on those.  That is one of the reasons as a creator I include many textures or colour change choices on a hud and sell it for somewhere between 250 L and 350 L because I would pay that much to get the option of more choices.  I do not sell separates anymore (some of my older stuff I did) because I feel to pay for a single would cost almost as much as the item with a hud, 

But there are many opinions about this.  That is mine.  I guess I am trying to work on some sort of middle ground.

this is something i agree there as well. if you make a hud already with "all" the colors its ok if the item is already a bit more expensive because you put even more work behind it for said color hud - but if i sell already, to go back to my sample, color variations of said dress then why not all OR a full fatpack. As i said, it basicly feels like youre getting forced if you want a color which a creator doesnt sell by itself to buy the fatpack...which is just unfair to do and not really costumer friendly.

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   I very seldom buy fatpacks. I used to, and occasionally still do if it's reasonably priced (say, x3 the price of the single colour product, with x12 the colours, and there's actually more than 2 interesting colour options). And whilst I strongly dislike them and wish they'd just stop (or include a modifiable version along with the UV and bake maps so I could do anything I wanted with it without being scripted to Hell and back - but I reckon that ain't going mainstream any time soon), I rather do enjoy SL being a free market with some regulation (gachas being shot down was a win for the SL consumer - that some creators immediately went to do those boring queue-machines where they incentivise you to still buy x20 something to get the one thing you want without having to wait 2 hours and risking someone else swooping in to snatch it, is just spitting us in the face). 

   LL banning fatpacks wouldn't end up well for anyone, I reckon.

   LL enforcing that everything is modifiable (with exceptions for things like scripts) I probably could get behind (although without the UV maps you can't do much fun with it anyway, unless you're ready to reverse-engineer the textures so that you can then put whatever patches or patterns you want on it). Just imagine how many clothes and accessories you would actually start considering getting, as you could now do something about that appalling excuse for materials that so many creators seem to be completely incapable of understanding. 

   And don't give me that 'creative concept' argument wherein a creator should get to dictate exactly how their products are used and exhibited by others. People buy Rolls Royce cars and slap Star Wars stickers on 'em. Tacky as it may be, they bought it; it's their car (although people who get pink Rolls Royce cars probably should be shipped off to a desolate island and be exiled from civilized society - for the greater good of all!). 

   Imagine if <insert big brand store with nice clothes here> did that. Imagine if you could take that rather plain-looking one-colour top and put a print on it. It would even open up a whole new market for people who can't mesh or rig to create texture packs for others' clothes; there are quite a few folks that actually make decent products out of fullperms. And, for the <big brand store> owner, that'd mean that anyone who wants to get that texture pack with the pretty cartoon zebras on it would first have to purchase your product. Win-win, no? As for people looking garbage and making people avoid a store because they don't want to look like that - I mean I know a lot of people who'll inspect or scan people with something cool that I might want to get for myself, but I never heard of anyone doing that to find out where an ugly T-shirt came out of in order to avoid that place.

   ... /rant. 

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the problem is just basicly as i said already

 

If i as creator offer an item with "just" different colors, i should sell all colors solo and not just "some" and make the rest of them available in a fatpack.

Important here is: im talking only about color texture differances - not special textures like pictures or motives which i can see can sure still be used in a fatpack.

I mean think about that for a moment if someone would do that in real life - it would be a rip off.

like, if i want just ONE black jeans and only a black jeans the creator tells me "oh you can buy them but you have to literally buy all other 20+ different colors as well"... Just why? I just wanted ONE freaking black jeans, not 20+ other different colors i literally just have to buy with them which i will never ever use in the first place nor wanted anyway.

Again, its costumer unfriendly and makes no sense to do that other than creating a virtual lock with the knowledge that people exactly want this colors the most and, again, basically forcing them to buy a fatpack they dont want to buy in the first place but HAVE to because you can ONLY get those colors in said fatpack.

this is something LL should prevent. If the quallity is literally equal but "just" a different color, the creators should have 2 opinions: either sell them all solo AND a fatpack or JUST in a fatpack. everything else feels like, as i said, an unfair and unfriendly thing to use or do (as it was seen in my RL sample).

Edited by Faly Breen
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26 minutes ago, Orwar said:

I probably could get behind (although without the UV maps you can't do much fun with it anyway, unless you're ready to reverse-engineer the textures so that you can then put whatever patches or patterns you want on it). Just imagine how many clothes and accessories you would actually start considering getting, as you could now do something about that appalling excuse for materials that so many creators seem to be completely incapable of understanding. 

They do sell blank (templates) for those who want to put their own designs on them.  Granted the templates are expensive in some cases and not a lot around, but that is one way you could be sure to get what you want.  And yes there is a reason for no mod for most clothing items,  after putting hours of work into something  a creator does not want to see it totally borked and messed up by someone else...  just saying.  If you want things your way either buy only what you like as is, or buy a template and paste what you want on the maps.

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6 minutes ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

And yes there is a reason for no mod for most clothing items,  after putting hours of work into something  a creator does not want to see it totally borked and messed up by someone else...  just saying.

38 minutes ago, Orwar said:

And don't give me that 'creative concept' argument wherein a creator should get to dictate exactly how their products are used and exhibited by others. People buy Rolls Royce cars and slap Star Wars stickers on 'em. Tacky as it may be, they bought it; it's their car

   So if I buy a Nike T-shirt and used a textile pen to write 'I like trains' on it, what, I've defaced it in such a way that it should be illegal for me to wear it?

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There are a few simple templates for standard items.

There's Robin Wood's free T-shirt template. This gives you a blank T-shirt you can texture. You need Photoshop or GIMP to do this, because you start from a multi-layered image and change one or two of the layers. Most avatars can wear these T-shirts. Get that and practice a bit.

There are other places which sell templates for more complex garments. Search for "second life clothing templates".

In Second Life,  there is ready to wear clothing, often not too expensive and often not copyable or not transferable. Then there are kits for creators. Those usually cost more, but usually come with permissions that let you copy and resell items built with the kit. You're looking for a product aimed at creators.

This works kind of like real life.

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3 hours ago, animats said:

There are a few simple templates for standard items.

There's Robin Wood's free T-shirt template. This gives you a blank T-shirt you can texture. You need Photoshop or GIMP to do this, because you start from a multi-layered image and change one or two of the layers. Most avatars can wear these T-shirts. Get that and practice a bit.

There are other places which sell templates for more complex garments. Search for "second life clothing templates".

In Second Life,  there is ready to wear clothing, often not too expensive and often not copyable or not transferable. Then there are kits for creators. Those usually cost more, but usually come with permissions that let you copy and resell items built with the kit. You're looking for a product aimed at creators.

This works kind of like real life.

im not looking for alternatives here. Its the fact that creators do this on a regular base and this should not be defended in any kind. as i already said in my other comment, if i wanna buy myself a black shirt, i only wanna buy myself a black shirt and wanna also be able to buy said black shirt, not getting forced to buy a fatpack.

Edited by Faly Breen
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Apart from very plain t-shirts, I can't imagine myself wearing all the colours in a fat-pack of anything. I would get bored seeing the same item over and over. What seems reasonable, is that it would be cheaper to buy the fat-pack than buy the items I might wear separately.
If someone feels the need to have every colour, then that doesn't feel like a fashion choice, it's looks like more of a collector impulse.
I do know that the actual choice of colours is a big influence in my choice of retailer, some are much better than others.

Maybe this is just me, but if I can't imagine a selection of clothes which would fit into a regular RL wardrobe then it's hard for me to warm to the items. I can get attached to my one pair of brown boots, but the idea of having fifteen different colours boggles my mind.
I do make hud based fatpack exceptions for those creators who I really like, and who make this offer very good value, and who do not offer singles..this is just their normal way of selling.
In this case I might just wear one colour and ignore the rest, and not have my inventory cluttered up with unwanted items.

If a creator does only offer basic colours in an expensive fatpack then that landmark goes in the trash. I would rather support another shop.

The fun for me is in creating a working wardrobe, within a chosen colour palette, and making it feel real.
I know that is not true for others, that making fashion pics is their joy, but even then, nobody likes to feel cheated or manipulated.
 

Edited by Raspberry Crystal
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i have the same issue in RL

like i go to the haberdashery counter in the department store and show them a button that needs replacing. And they go sure we have that, and get out a pack of 12 buttons and say: that be $6 please. And I go: I only want one. Can I just have one please, I am happy to pay $1 for it, like twice as much. And they go: nah! $6 or nothing. And I think: blinking robbers! They probably killing whales and destroying the planet as well with all their wastefulness !! S I go nah! back to them, and sew any old button I find at home on instead.  Sometimes people notice and go hey! you have an odd button on you. And I go: I know! I am saving the planet. And they go: waaah! And I go: nevermind is a long story!

and don't let me get started on what happens when I go to the craft counter and want to buy just the pink crayon because my one has been all used up. And the shopkeeper person goes nah! sorry! whole box of assorted colours or nothing. They probably illegally drill for oil in baby seal birthing habitats as well these people !!

😺

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

i have the same issue in RL

like i go to the haberdashery counter in the department store and show them a button that needs replacing. And they go sure we have that, and get out a pack of 12 buttons and say: that be $6 please. And I go: I only want one. Can I just have one please, I am happy to pay $1 for it, like twice as much. And they go: nah! $6 or nothing. And I think: blinking robbers! They probably killing whales and destroying the planet as well with all their wastefulness !! S I go nah! back to them, and sew any old button I find at home on instead.  Sometimes people notice and go hey! you have an odd button on you. And I go: I know! I am saving the planet. And they go: waaah! And I go: nevermind is a long story!

and don't let me get started on what happens when I go to the craft counter and want to buy just the pink crayon because my one has been all used up. And the shopkeeper person goes nah! sorry! whole box of assorted colours or nothing. They probably illegally drill for oil in baby seal birthing habitats as well these people !!

😺

 

 

You need a haberdashery which functions like an old fashioned hardware shop! No pre-packaging, you could buy nails / screws / fittings by weight and these were sold in a paper bag :)

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8 minutes ago, Raspberry Crystal said:

You need a haberdashery which functions like an old fashioned hardware shop! No pre-packaging, you could buy nails / screws / fittings by weight and these were sold in a paper bag :)

i would like to have shops nearby me where I could just get the exact amount I wanted.  Is all big box stores by me now.  Everything comes in packs in these stores, and I never use them all. Sometimes I can give the rest away to other people, but not as often as I would like

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That is why the term exclusive exists. You pay extra but you get something special for it. If you don't like it simply skip and go ahead. Every creator is free to determine the business model of their products, that's standard for any business regardless of it's type.

As for why many creators choose to make their products unmodifiable is pretty clear. No one enjoys other tampering with their creations after they put in hours of work to make them. Not to mention how many outfits out there get ripped off, if you tend to keep close eye on the regular sales events, you will notice as the time goes by that there are one and the same outfits sold by dozen of different creators that are just retextured.

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18 hours ago, Faly Breen said:

this is something LL should prevent

No, LL should stay out of it.  WE  as consumers could prevent this if no one purchased from these stores and dropped a notecard on the owner explaining why.

Edited by Rowan Amore
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4 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

they are FREE to do so, as you are FREE to NOT buy it that way. There is no need at all to make such things regulated by official rules. 

solved.

 

of course, right now, they are free to do so because there is nothing which holds them of this limit. as i said, and you said, i dont need to buy their product if i want only a black one out of a full pack but getting forced to buy all or nothing - and, again, this is my problem i have: this "all or nothing" and the fact that they are just color differances. I cant say, as i said in my rl sample, be like "i sell the colors red, blue and green solo and if you want another color you have to buy them all". Sure i can look for alternatives (and srsly mostly do) but that "mostly" will not change the mind of the said creator because, think, we are talking about the human mind here, do you really think everyone "cares" about this "problem"? i mean look at you as sample, you think its srsly solved if ONE (me) of how many people would not buy the creators product? As if, man, as if.

3 hours ago, Aiyumei said:

That is why the term exclusive exists. You pay extra but you get something special for it. If you don't like it simply skip and go ahead. Every creator is free to determine the business model of their products, that's standard for any business regardless of it's type.

As for why many creators choose to make their products unmodifiable is pretty clear. No one enjoys other tampering with their creations after they put in hours of work to make them. Not to mention how many outfits out there get ripped off, if you tend to keep close eye on the regular sales events, you will notice as the time goes by that there are one and the same outfits sold by dozen of different creators that are just retextured.

and in that case you go for "color" excusives? I mean im glad already gachas doesnt exist, just to leave the hint on the road here but again, we are still talking about simple textured colors and not any sprinkly sparkly effect. And than again: even if you go with the therm exclusive, said products doesnt have anything special or different OTHER than the color from the ones which get sold solo and you be like now "black has to be exclusive"? Kinda still a dickish move to make and literally doesnt add any kind of work from the creators side if they either go with a "either sell all or only fatpack" system. There is also a reason why "exclusives" are hated in a lot areas anyways (RL and SL wise) because of that but thats not the point here. As i said, the point is putting 2-5 colors on sale solo and putting the colors people really want behind a paylock, into a fatpack.

33 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

No, LL should say out of it.  WE has consumers could prevent this if no one purchased from these stores and dropped a notecard on the owner explaining why.

Sorry but we saw how far creators go. As i hinted, just remember how far gachas got out of hand and right now people use the fatpack excuse as...well, excuse to sell something "exclusive". I think LL should srsly put a rule up for that, as i already said some comments before and, again, we are still talking about the human mind and one guy will sadly not change a thing...sad but true.

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16 minutes ago, Faly Breen said:

 

Sorry but we saw how far creators go. As i hinted, just remember how far gachas got out of hand and right now people use the fatpack excuse as...well, excuse to sell something "exclusive". I think LL should srsly put a rule up for that, as i already said some comments before and, again, we are still talking about the human mind and one guy will sadly not change a thing...sad but true.

Gachas weren't banned because 'creators got out of hand'.  I have every right to sell my creations for whatever price I would like and in any configuration as long as the buyer knows what they get.

I can make a dress and put it out for sale at 1,000,000L.  No mod, no copy.  Copy, no mod.  No copy, no transfer.  All kinds of ways because IT'S ALLOWED.  

You, as consumer have the right NOT to purchase it.    No one is being forced to purchase a fatpack...of anything...period.

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37 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Gachas weren't banned because 'creators got out of hand'.  I have every right to sell my creations for whatever price I would like and in any configuration as long as the buyer knows what they get.

I can make a dress and put it out for sale at 1,000,000L.  No mod, no copy.  Copy, no mod.  No copy, no transfer.  All kinds of ways because IT'S ALLOWED.  

You, as consumer have the right NOT to purchase it.    No one is being forced to purchase a fatpack...of anything...period.

of course not but as i said and as it is right now, creators sell just some colors solo and put the ones which "most people want" into a fatpack and ONLY in a fatpack which is the stupid thing to do with literally no other excuse than "being that kind of creator".

 

I dont "have to" buy the pack if i go with an alternative but if i want "just this one color", i basicly get forced to take the fatpack or nothing (and this is the problem). as said in my main post i can show a lot samples here but it wuld be nameshaming.

Edited by Faly Breen
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6 minutes ago, Faly Breen said:

forced to take the fatpack

This is where your argument falls apart.  You are not forced to buy anything, ever.   Walk away.  I have never purchased a pack to get the ONE color I wanted.  That's kinda foolish, IMO.  If enough people refuse to purchase, perhaps they will change their business model.  LL forcing people into a set way of selling?   Yeah, no. 

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50 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

This is where your argument falls apart.  You are not forced to buy anything, ever.   Walk away.

again, only to stay with the sample here, if i want THIS "one dress" in "this one color i want" than there is no other opinion to buy the fatpack because its (the color you want) not sold alone. This is the problem.

Edited by Faly Breen
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