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PIOF Required for content creation


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When mesh arrives so will the two-tier SL.  Residents without PIOF (Payment Info On File) will be banned from uploading meshes.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh_Upload_Enablement

So that's me boycotting any mesh-based products then, since I have no means of paying LL anything.

Until now the only thing you needed PIOF for was renting mainland from LL.  What'll be next?

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Next?  Ideally, restricting all content uploads to users with a registered and verifiable RL identity (for which PIOF is LL's best current proxy).

Actually (as discussed across the street at greater length), some of us would much prefer that uploads not be restricted but that initiating transfers of anything -- even notecards -- be limited to such RL-registered accounts. 

Probably obviously, transfer restrictions are getting at risks beyond IP infringement, which the upload limitations presumably target exclusively.

The reason these came with Mesh, I think, is the widespread expectation that bootlegged models from across the Internet will flood into SL the moment Mesh is available on the Main grid.  That expectation isn't unjustified:  On the Mesh beta sims, I've seen (way) more ripped models than original work.  So, if LL didn't do something to control that, there'd be a much more compelling reason to boycott Mesh products.

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Qwalyphi Korpov wrote:

It's unclear from the write up how the policy achieves it's objective via payment info.

It will serve to hamper the activities of people who use a succession of throwaway alts to put ripped content up for sale at firesale prices on the marketplace on a Friday and can normally expect to enjoy a couple of days' unjustified income before anything much happens.   At least they won't be able to do it with mesh.

And it also provides a disincentive in that LL will have some RL names and addresses to give to Turbosquid's lawyers when they phone up asking whose life they should make difficult for a bit.

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Qie Niangao wrote:

Next?  Ideally, restricting all content uploads to users with a registered and verifiable RL identity (for which PIOF is LL's best current proxy).


Again, I will more than likely ruffle feathers but that's just the Juris Doctorate coming out and always focused on threats and liability.  I could not agree with you more. Being in the Adult Content business, both RL and here, I have a serious concern about the images that are sitting on Linden Labs asset servers.

Should some form of Child Pornography end up there, Linden Labs could potentially have ALL their asset servers confiscated and impounded.  Given the anonymity of this world, I see where there could be no recourse or cooperation granted to the FBI, DoD and others in a matter of content trafficking.

However, this being said, I have been opposed to free accounts since the day the announced them and have seen what has become of Second Life since then since it was little more than a marketing move to boost numbers and attract corporate interest. Which as we all know, that corporate interest has all but dissipated.

 

 

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@ Peter - you are incorrect, you need a Premium account to "own" mainland, PIOF means "payment info on file", which means merely supplying the information, but not necessarily using it. And fear not, for those unable use payment info, someone will offer an upload service for a small fee.

As far as tiers within SL, we have many, and have had them for a while.  For example, you need not only payment info on file, but payment info used before you can cash out via the Lindex exchange.  The premium account mentioned above has several benefits only available to to that level.  Concierge membership (own half a sim or more), and even higher tiers exist.

* If you want to make and sell items without upload charges, you can.  3D models are stored as .dae files, which are nothing but formatted XML text.  You can copy the text to a notecard (or several if its a large model) and sell that along with the textures.  The buyer then does the upload after copying it back to their PC and saving as a .dae extension

* If you just want to build for fun, there will likely be freely available models, the way there are freely available megaprims, donated by people.

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DanielRavenNest Noe wrote:

@ Peter - you are incorrect, you need a Premium account to "own" mainland, PIOF means "payment info on file", which means merely supplying the information, but not necessarily using it. And fear not, for those unable use payment info, someone will offer an upload service for a small fee.

As far as tiers within SL, we have many, and have had them for a while.

  • To buy a premium account you need to have PIOF.  Therefore you need to have PIOF to rent from LL.  Since you must pay tier all the time you never 'own' it.
  • Getting someone else to upload my work is what I'm intending
  • There have never been any blocks on anyone making or doing anything in SL, except renting from LL, since free accounts
  • Upload fees are not the same as requiring PIOF.  I have made millions of L$, and spent most of them again since I can't cash-out
  • The copy of my passport LL insisted upon for age-verification should be sufficient
  • Or are LL saying they don't care about paedophiles, etc. - only about IP

However, it seems I am the only on here in favour of free accounts/

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I am perfectly ok with the arrangement LL is going with. In fact, it's pretty much exactly what I proposed way back when mesh was still private beta with a nondisclosure agreement so I'm happy to see they've shown some very good sense.

Ideally there'd be no restrictions whatsoever, however there has to be something in place to prevent people from anonymously uploading IP infringing content and as sculpt/texture/sound uploads show the honour system simply doesn't cut it.

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:
  • Or are LL saying they don't care about paedophiles, etc. - only about IP


Wow, what?Making absurd comments isn't helping your argument here.


PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

However, it seems I am the only on here in favour of free accounts/

Making incorrect comments isn't helping your argument any, either. You don't have to pay for a "Payment Info on File" account. They're free.

 

 

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so the difference will be between completely anonymous accounts and one potentially costing a miximum of 2.50$US (the minimum Lindex purchase...

the idea is not to stop people from uploading stolen content, it's to provide a means to pursue them when that does happen.

sorry, not seeing a problem there.... unfortunately I don't think it's going to slow down most organized content teft.

 

and you are wrong... NPIOF accounts already have reduced support option, and in fact for quite a while they didn't even have forum access.

 

like Qie, I'd like to see even more limits, although I don't think anything as drastic as the inability to transfer anything is necessary.

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Mesh makers online already complain that theft will happen. If this will slow theft or make it possible to track it, I don't see a problem. Especially at first, mesh will be expensive, and a prime target for thieves. Also there are pre made mesh models that other people online are worried will be illegally imported into Second Life.

As long as NPIOF accounts can still shop and buy things and still create with the basic square prims, I don't see a problem. And it isn't as if they can't just sign up with PIOF if they wanted to, right? Doesn't everyone have a credit card these days?

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Melita Magic wrote:

Doesn't everyone have a credit card these days?

No.  I can't even get a bank account that'd let me verify a paypal account.  I actually have about twice as much money in SL at the moment as I do in RL.

@ Penny - I do take your points though.  My paedophile comment was addressed at a an even dafter post earlier saying this would help stop child porn (!?).  My comment about free accounts was just wrong, apologies.

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I can easily see how this is restrictive to new people getting into content making, will make people think twice about even getting into SL when they're at the early stage before they've realized its better to pay your way through some things.

But I can also see that not doing it would easily land SL into serious legal hot water with some 3D companies that are bigger and have better lawyers and more IP to protect.

They will still have those lawsuits, but this gets them out of the path of the bullet and puts the illegal uploaders right in the path. LL's will likely get served with a very big and nasty lawsuit early into mesh - and with this change they can silently give the other party the name of the violator and none of us wull have to hear of it or risk losing our entire grid to pay legal fees brought about by one jerk.

So... in the mix of things, probably for the best, albeit frustrating in what it will do to curtail some new content creators.

I'm assuming they banking of the low chance of a good 3D modeller being the sort unwilling to pay for 3D content. Any good modeller is probably already making money hand over fist on Renderosity, and selling some sculpties here - and those people are unlikely to balk at this.

Any good 3D modeller not yet here, is likewise probably already making money at Daz3d, Renderosity, 3D cafe, or somewhere like that - and will not balk at a potential new market.

Its only the peple brand new to modelling in 3D that will balk - but they won't be ready to upload any meshes yet anyway. It takes a few years to get good at 3D modelling...

 

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Nice summary Pussycat, I'm happy (and pleasantly surprised) to see this is the way Linden Lab has decided to enable mesh.

Can't wait to do my tutorial/test thing.....

We shouldn't worry as to not attract more content creators to SL anyways, there is already so many... With proper promotion of SL, there should be a ratio of like 10/1 (or better) number of content users to content creators here.... reason why we should see that ratio is most people do not want to spend time developing 3d assets/environments, most people would prefer to consume entertainment.

So we see Linden Lab is now focused on making SL more appealing to this mainstream consumer.

As SL grows we will see it mature into a fuller world, not such a one-sided community :matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:

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Regardless of the principle involved here, non-USA residents have a problem with the mechanism for PIOF. I was both Premium and PIOF until SL handed their payment collection over to a gambling house; subsequent events reported on these forums and others have persuaded me to revert to Basic and remove my payment info until SL demonstrates considerably more competence and trustworthiness in this area.

I'd like SL to provide a non-USA payment system which actually works well for at least 6 months (without it refusing legitimate payments, causing the banning of innocent residents and deletion of their inventory, leaking personal data or being acknowledged by SL themselves as a Beta-test using live data) before I go back to PIOF.

It's a simple matter of confidence. I don't currently trust SL with a payment system which, for non-USA users, is  actually a gambling company located in a tiny British colony (Gibraltar)., which would appear to have a) (allegedly) already leaked user's information to it's related companies for spam purposes, and b) required users to send them photocopies of both sides of their credit card before they'll take their money.

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Arkady Arkright wrote:

Regardless of the principle involved here, non-USA residents have a problem with the mechanism for PIOF
.
I was both Premium and PIOF until SL handed their payment collection over to a gambling house; subsequent events reported on these forums and others have persuaded me to revert to Basic and remove my payment info until SL demonstrates considerably more competence and trustworthiness in this area.

I'd like SL to provide a non-USA payment system which actually works well for at least 6 months (without it refusing legitimate payments, causing the banning of innocent residents and deletion of their inventory, leaking personal data or being acknowledged by SL themselves as a Beta-test using live data) before I go back to PIOF.

It's a simple matter of confidence. I don't currently trust SL with a payment system which, for non-USA users, is  actually a gambling company located in a tiny British colony (Gibraltar)., which would appear to have
a
) (allegedly) already leaked
user's information to it's related companies for spam purposes, and
b
) required users to send them photocopies of both sides of their credit card before they'll take their money.

Since Dragonfishtech.com, the payment handlers, are subject to EU data protection law and EU gaming regulation,as are their owners, 888.com (who are a UK company), and many of their customers  -- e.g. Littlewoods Pools, a name that will mean something to Brits, if to no one else  -- they're subject to a much tighter compliance regime with their data handling than is LL or most other US companies, and have considerably more to lose if things go wrong.    If something goes wrong, both Dragonfish and Littlewoods are subject to criminal prosecution in Gibraltar and the UK respectively, as are senior managers in both companies, and risk losing their business altogether because they'd be putting their gambling licenses at risk by breaking data protection law.    I'm pretty certain, too, that Dragonfishtech have considerably more experience, because of the nature of their business, in dealing with online fraud attempts.

The fact that LL has chosen them doesn't really tell me much.   However, the fact that, for example, Littlewoods and Racing Post use them gives me a great deal of confidence because I know they'll have had to do the necessary due diligence checks.   

If I did the pools I would be far less worried about giving Littlewoods' appointed agent my credit card details than was I about giving my details to an unregulated American company like LL, because I know there are robust legal protections in place in the EU (which includes Gib) to protect me, and because I know Littlewoods have a great deal to lose if their agents foul up.

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Since Dragonfishtech.com, the payment handlers, are subject to EU data protection law and EU gaming regulation,as are their owners, 888.com (who are a UK company), and many of their customers  -- e.g. Littlewoods Pools, a name that will mean something to Brits, if to no one else  -- they're subject to a much tighter compliance regime with their data handling than is LL or most other US companies, and have considerably more to lose if things go wrong.  


Thanks Innula, I wasn't aware of that. I'd still like to see it run for 6 months without problems before I trust it, though...

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

 e.g. Littlewoods Pools, a name that will mean something to Brits, if to no one else  -- 


Well, Brits above a certain age anyway!

Apparently, it's just called "The Football Pools" since 2007 after they merged with two other companies, and are now only offered online.

I do remember 'The Pools Man' coming round to collect our money when I was a little kid though.

Random, irrelevant factoid! :smileyvery-happy:

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Innula Zenovka wrote:


Arkady Arkright wrote:

It's a simple matter of confidence. I don't currently trust SL with a payment system which, for non-USA users, is  actually a gambling company located in a tiny British colony (Gibraltar)., which would appear to have
a
) (allegedly) already leaked
user's information to it's related companies for spam purposes, and
b
) required users to send them photocopies of both sides of their credit card before they'll take their money.


Since Dragonfishtech.com, the payment handlers, are subject to EU data protection law and EU gaming regulation,as are their owners, 888.com (who are a UK company), and many of their customers  -- e.g. Littlewoods Pools, a name that will mean something to Brits, if to no one else  -- they're subject to a much tighter compliance regime with their data handling than is LL or most other US companies, and have considerably more to lose if things go wrong.    If something goes wrong, both Dragonfish and Littlewoods are subject to criminal prosecution in Gibraltar and the UK respectively, as are senior managers in both companies, and risk losing their business altogether because they'd be putting their gambling licenses at risk by breaking data protection law.    I'm pretty certain, too, that Dragonfishtech have considerably more experience, because of the nature of their business, in dealing with online fraud attempts.

LLs handed their money system off to some people in the EU?

If you ask me, that's a darned good thing. The US financial system is so corrupt it sends Russian mobsters and Chinese politicians crying for the police... Business in the US has -zero- accountability. You only get criminally prosecuted if you forget to pay off whoever's running Congress that year.

 

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PIOF for content creation mesh upload is a damn good idea. It's pretty dumb letting people with NPIOF upload, build and sell anything.

If you're NPIOF you should have limited rights in SL and should just be a virtual resident

PIOF should be a must for anybody uploading mesh, or anything , and taking part in Sl commerce.

It's amazing that Linden Lab allow NPIOF residents to build and sell at all. They are not accountable for their actions and some of them are thieves, copybotters and cause more trouble than they're worth

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Constance Flux wrote:

It's amazing that Linden Lab allow NPIOF residents to build and sell at all. They are not accountable for their actions and some of them are thieves, copybotters and cause more trouble than they're worth

Almost everyone is NPIOF when they start, of course, and, while building and scripting were two of the main things that got me hooked on SL, I had no idea how to do either when I started, let alone that I'd enjoy doing them, and I'm not sure I like the idea of having to be PIOF in order to particpate in two core activities of SL.   To sell stuff in the marketplace, yes, but not simply to be able to build stuff or pass it to friends.

 

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Like the UN and the Euro are stellar? 

Can we go for long in this forum without some gratuitous America-bashing? Ever?


Pussycat Catnap wrote:


LLs handed their money system off to some people in the EU?

If you ask me, that's a darned good thing. The US financial system is so corrupt it sends Russian mobsters and Chinese politicians crying for the police... Business in the US has -zero- accountability. You only get criminally prosecuted if you forget to pay off whoever's running Congress that year.

 



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Constance Flux wrote:

It's amazing that Linden Lab allow NPIOF residents to build and sell at all.

I see no reason at all why *everyone* should not be allowed to build. If only PIOF people were allowed to build, then a great many builders and sellers, maybe even most of them, would never have got started. *Everyone* should have the ability to build.

Selling, both in SL and in the marketplace, is another matter though. On first thought, I would be in favour of restricting the ability to sell to those who have indentified themselves and can be legally pursued - PIOF's, for instance. I haven't thought through the idea of restricting all transfers to indentifiable people, so I don't yet have an opinion about that.

It seems to me that restricting the ability to upload meshes to those who are indentifiable is a very good thing, but is only one step in the right direction.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 I haven't thought through the idea of restricting all transfers to indentifiable people, so I don't yet have an opinion about that.


NPIOF Resident:  Hi, sorry to bother you, but I bought a low prim widget in your shop out of my earnings as a dancer in a club here, and it doesn't seem to work.

Merchant.   That's OK, since it's transfer -- just send it back to me, and I'll send you a replacement.

NPIOF Resident:  Ah... that may present a problem..

 

 

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