LL should make simpler looking starter avatars

[Bree Giffen]

We bring up starter avatars from time to time and it's often suggested to make a starter avatar that competes with all the resident made mesh bodies and heads. I suggest that LL make a less-detailed but stylized cartoonish avatar which would be useful for several reasons.

First, it won't compete with the resident created avatars. By looking at the past history of starter avatars we can see that LL has never tried to compete and a new simple avatar would continue with that decision. The entire eco-system for these new avatars would not compete with the eco system of the current.

Second, there will be a one to one comparison between SL and other metaverse-type platforms which have simple stylized avatars. LL can also market SL with these new avatars and blend in with the other metaverse offerings. However, people would still see complex avatars in-world and switch to them if they want to. The choice is there.

Third, a new resident can differentiate themselves from long-time SL residents. People want to be the new thing and not simply join an existing trend. The new avatars would enable this desire built-in to the human brain. Everyone wants to have their own unique generation.

Fourth, some people outside of SL may actually prefer a simpler avatar and SL's current look may be pushing them away. A simpler avatar would help onboarding by making avatar customization easier to learn. It may also work with retention as people may never have to switch to the complex and confusing eco system of our current avatars.

Fifth, LL needs something unique that sets it's avatar apart and makes creators want to make things for it. We see how creators will support a new body when they come out but no one ever supports LL's current avatars because they are in the same vein as resident made avatars but just not as good. 

Sixth, the new avatars won't be sexy and won't bring up old complaints about SL being just about sex. As new people come into SL and start showing it to others, or making videos, the overall look of simpler avatars will appeal to a younger audiences, more prudish audiences, corporate audiences, and just the general population that doesn't want to jump into an avatar that has sexual connotations.

An older resident may not like new avatars for themselves and may not like seeing new residents coming in but we should be willing to accept that in our large SL world we can exist with people who look different if it helps our virtual world thrive and grow.

[Rowan Amore]

16 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Sixth, the new avatars won't be sexy and won't bring up old complaints about SL being just about sex.

When has this ever stopped a new resident from hitting the free sex places first?

[Syo Emerald]

 

20 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

First, it won't compete with the resident created avatars. By looking at the past history of starter avatars we can see that LL has never tried to compete and a new simple avatar would continue with that decision. The entire eco-system for these new avatars would not compete with the eco system of the current.

No starter avatar ever has competed with resident created avatars. We do not need simplistic starter avatars to archieve, what is already reality. So this isn't an argument for new starter avatars, its a highlight why it might be wasted ressources to create them. Also what makes you think there will be an "eco-system" for these avatars?

22 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Second, there will be a one to one comparison between SL and other metaverse-type platforms which have simple stylized avatars.

And... thats positiv how?

23 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Third, a new resident can differentiate themselves from long-time SL residents. People want to be the new thing and not simply join an existing trend. The new avatars would enable this desire built-in to the human brain. Everyone wants to have their own unique generation

Yeah, they will differentiate themself by looking like newbies. Who actually wants that label? Having your own expression by an individually created avatar is not "a trend" to join. Its simply what humans want. Hard no on the built-in desire to be "Girl-next-door No. 29865" forever. I have also yet to witness people identify themself as part of a generation or group based on what starter avatars they picked when creating their account. Or am I they only one, who never had a defining conversation about starting as that blond haired chick with the pleated skirt?

30 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Fifth, LL needs something unique that sets it's avatar apart

You just claimed it would be positive for SL to look like every other metaverse project out there, by presenting oversimplified avatars. Pick one.

31 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Sixth, the new avatars won't be sexy and won't bring up old complaints about SL being just about sex.

Please, please show me a "sexy" starter avatar! 🤣 The controvery around sex and SL never stemmed from the starter avatars, but from the resident created content inworld and the simple fact that LL made the choice to allow sexual content instead of trying to be "advertiser friendly". So new starter avatars would change absolutly nothing.

[Bree Giffen]

40 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

No starter avatar ever has competed with resident created avatars. We do not need simplistic starter avatars to achieve, what is already reality. So this isn't an argument for new starter avatars, its a highlight why it might be wasted resources to create them. Also what makes you think there will be an "eco-system" for these avatars?

1. That's the opinion an established resident and not an outsider. I'm trying to think from the perspective of someone not like ourselves. That's how I get my ideas. If you build it they will come or rather if SL builds it and gets behind it the eco-system will grow. It won't be fast. It never is.

43 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

And... that's positive how?

2. It's positive because people will see similarities. When you look at metaverse offerings and SL there is a big difference. Trends are a big thing in marketing. This will widen SL's appeal but it's not simply about joining a trend as I've explained in my other points.

48 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

Yeah, they will differentiate themselves by looking like newbies. Who actually wants that label? Having your own expression by an individually created avatar is not "a trend" to join. Its simply what humans want. Hard no on the built-in desire to be "Girl-next-door No. 29865" forever. I have also yet to witness people identify themselves as part of a generation or group based on what starter avatars they picked when creating their account. Or am I they only one, who never had a defining conversation about starting as that blond haired chick with the pleated skirt?

3. You're thinking the worse case scenario. You're thinking of the mistake LL made to compete with resident made avatars. This is different. The difference is the key.

 4. So you agree with this point, right? 😀 

50 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

You just claimed it would be positive for SL to look like every other metaverse project out there, by presenting oversimplified avatars. Pick one.

5. To clarify I was bringing up two different things. The new avatars are unique within SL compared to current SL avatars. They are similar to other metaverse projects.

53 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

Please, please show me a "sexy" starter avatar! 🤣 The controversy around sex and SL never stemmed from the starter avatars, but from the resident created content inworld and the simple fact that LL made the choice to allow sexual content instead of trying to be "advertiser friendly". So new starter avatars would change absolutely nothing.

6. You're right. The current starter avatars aren't sexy but they share the same design as resident made avatars which are sexy. The correlation is there. My idea of new avatar would break that correlation.

[Orwar]

1 hour ago, Syo Emerald said:

Please, please show me a "sexy" starter avatar! 🤣

[Ajay McDowwll]

One of the biggest issues faced by new residents to SL is avatar customization; I know this from extensive socialization with people new to SL, as well as folks who tried it once and decided to nope on out because the learning curve was just too high.  That's also one of the biggest draws a virtual world has to retaining residents.  I'm active in SL, Sinespace, and a few other virtual platforms, and I can guarantee you that if I can't customize my avatar to an aesthetic that pleases me, I won't be spending much time in that particular virtual space.

If anything, the Lab should have mesh avatars available that are more comparable to the popular mesh bodies on the grid -- both in form and customization methods -- which would enable new residents to learn how to customize their avatars to the current state of most people on the grid rather than giving them a system avatar that many just give up on and leave, never to return.

I recently created a new alt to see what onboarding is now like in SL, and although the experience was improved from my last alt's creation, one thing that's missing for new avatars is information about how HUDs work, how most residents end up customizing their avatars, what alpha layers are, why you use them... I mean, you learn to walk, cam, go into mouselook, how to buy things, how to talk, but the serious work of current avatar creation isn't even touched upon because all of those products are only available commercially rather than being included as part of the "starter package".  There was no information about changing your avatar's skin, none about changing hair, none about actually changing an entire outfit, going from no clothing to alpha layers and the attendant mesh clothing pieces afterward... y'all, this is basic stuff every other virtual world offers, and meanwhile new resident tutorials for those entering the grid barely touch on them, if they do at all.

All this to say, I don't think a more simplistic, cartoonish starter avatar is at all the solution that is needed. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Ajay McDowwll
Wording.

[Alwin Alcott]

2 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

I suggest that LL make a less-detailed but stylized cartoonish avatar which would be useful for several reasons.

good... we'll stll recognize all noobs without checking their profiles

[Syo Emerald]

38 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

1. That's the opinion an established resident and not an outsider. I'm trying to think from the perspective of someone not like ourselves. That's how I get my ideas. If you build it they will come or rather if SL builds it and gets behind it the eco-system will grow. It won't be fast. It never is.

But we are still... people, not aliens. Why should new residents not want to customize their avatars and upgrade their visual apperance to their desire? That would be a first time in SLs history. The other issue is, that an eco-system will only form, if there is money to be made and that is only the case, if established residents would drop their current bodies and heads in favor of whatever LL puts out... and I'm not seeing that happening. LL is not without talent, but I simply don't see them out-compeating the existing brands.

44 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

2. It's positive because people will see similarities. When you look at metaverse offerings and SL there is a big difference. Trends are a big thing in marketing. This will widen SL's appeal but it's not simply about joining a trend as I've explained in my other points.

What do you mean by that (people will see similarities)? What people? The metaverse people? My question is, if the type of person who likes stuff like Zuckerbergs metaverse video will have a positive impact, if they come to SL. The whole metaverse is currently a trend/hype. I don't see how its not.

46 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

3. You're thinking the worse case scenario. You're thinking of the mistake LL made to compete with resident made avatars. This is different. The difference is the key.

You are contradicting yourself again. Now you are saying LL made a mistake by compeating with the resident made avatars, but just a bit above you claimed that this is the way.

50 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

4. So you agree with this point, right? 😀 

Only in part. I can obviously not exclude that some people will like super simplistic avatars, but if they are currently driven away by avatar complexity, they still will be (even with those avatars), because the world outside of their simplistic-starter-avatar-bubble does not conform to what they have experianced so far.

54 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

6. You're right. The current starter avatars aren't sexy but they share the same design as resident made avatars which are sexy. The correlation is there. My idea of new avatar would break that correlation.

That is still not where the sex controversy comes from. Nobody thinks about the avatars in those conversations and articles. They look at Second Life as a world and its content. Wii Sports avatars won't change that.

[Alwin Alcott]

3 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

 I can obviously not exclude that some people will like super simplistic avatars,

in general people don't like "simplified" ... as if they can't handle the real thing.

"we" oldies, remember how great the "simplified" viewer was received......

[animats]

"Hey, look, a default. Loser!" - Fortnite insult, middle school level.

My usual comment on starter avatars is that sticking anybody with 70s Disco Guy with Radio is cruelty to new users. At least start them with Boy Next Door. Randomize the shirt color and pattern a bit. New users who don't make an explicit choice should get a neutral avatar. One that doesn't have an implicit role or personality. Starting people with jeans and a T-shirt is not a bad choice.

The common female starter avatar, Woman with Big Floppy Hat and Purse with Small Yappy Dog, isn't bad. But it does imply a role - luxury tourist.

Edited January 23, 2022 by animats
Used Markdown in non-Markdown forum.

[Blaise Glendevon]

I actually like the most recent wave of starter avatars, and think LL should make BOM gloves and socks so you could use the skins on mesh bodies. 

[Rowan Amore]

[Gilgamesh Alpha]

I want these back as starter avs. I know you can find them in the library but they should be on the starter avatar menu.

[Bree Giffen]

6 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

But we are still... people, not aliens. Why should new residents not want to customize their avatars and upgrade their visual appearance to their desire? That would be a first time in SLs history. The other issue is, that an eco-system will only form, if there is money to be made and that is only the case, if established residents would drop their current bodies and heads in favor of whatever LL puts out... and I'm not seeing that happening. LL is not without talent, but I simply don't see them out-competing the existing brands.

1.a. Never said that new residents would not be able to upgrade their appearance. They can upgrade the new simplified avatar or get a regular SL mesh avatar. As for creating an eco-system for the simplified avatar this requires more effort on SL's part. They have to make it look good but full-featured enough and somehow incentivize creating clothing/etc for it. Look at the current starter avatars. How well has LL provided ongoing support for them? Nothing. LL will have to step up their game with the new simplified avatar.

6 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

What do you mean by that (people will see similarities)? What people? The metaverse people? My question is, if the type of person who likes stuff like Zuckerbergs metaverse video will have a positive impact, if they come to SL. The whole metaverse is currently a trend/hype. I don't see how its not.

2.a. Yes, anyone who has just learned about the metaverse. It may be hype but every single game out there has simpler avatars from Roblox, Horizons, Fortnite, Minecraft, etc. You may not see it but everyone else, who is not in SL, does.

6 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

You are contradicting yourself again. Now you are saying LL made a mistake by competing with the resident made avatars, but just a bit above you claimed that this is the way.

3.a. Not contradicting  at all. LL made a mistake with their current avatars versus resident made avatars. The new simplified avatar will not compete versus resident made avatars because they are different.

6 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

Only in part. I can obviously not exclude that some people will like super simplistic avatars, but if they are currently driven away by avatar complexity, they still will be (even with those avatars), because the world outside of their simplistic-starter-avatar-bubble does not conform to what they have experienced so far.

4.a. I'm thinking that people may choose to stay with the simplified avatar. Possibly, they may stay with it their entire time in SL. I once helped a new resident with fixing up her avatar and she set her shape to be extremely skinny like a stick figure. I tried to help her with new shapes but she told me, 'Thanks but I like shape that I have now'. It took a while for me to realize that some people will want a look that is different from everything you expect them to want.

6 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

That is still not where the sex controversy comes from. Nobody thinks about the avatars in those conversations and articles. They look at Second Life as a world and its content. Wii Sports avatars won't change that.

6.a. Okay. I think I understand. The sex controversy issue may not be solved with a simplified avatar. However, if you think I was suggesting Wii sports avatars, you're idea of a simplified avatar is way different from what I am thinking. 

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

My only issue with the starters avatars is that you can't even mix and match clothing between the styles.  You are stuck with what you have.  It might be nice if you could modify what they are to be taller, skinnier. or to fit some free mesh item you picked up or even to have the ability to use an alpha.  I don't think they need to look better.  SL wants people to spend some money, but letting people practice some dressing and body slider skills wouldn't hurt.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Cinnamon Mistwood

[JeromFranzic]

2 hours ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

My only issue with the starters avatars is that you can't even mix and match clothing between the styles.  You are stuck with what you have.  It might be nice if you could modify what they are to be taller, skinnier. or to fit some free mesh item you picked up or even to have the ability to use an alpha.  I don't think they need to look better.  SL wants people to spend some money, but letting people practice some dressing and body slider skills wouldn't hurt.

Totally. When I started with SL back in April, 2021 playing around with the sliders to change my appearance was quite bewildering. I persisted anyway because I am used to dealing with fine grained details from other apps. But for the average user who simply wants to explore a bit before making a relatively serious enough commitment to stay on as I have... yeah, this comment is spot on. (Lump that with other technical issues like FPS, third party viewers, rezzing etc... still amazing that SL continues to thrive but could use more improvements to the overall experience to attract new users.)

[MillyWH]

At one point there were "new" starter avatars that were created by in world designers - they are still in the folders- Adam & Eve, Renegade, Nylon Outfitters -- etc but they are just in the generic names of "gamer girl" or "girl next door" . 

 

The vehicle avatars are still in there as Vehitars.

 

I'm still not sure how you envision these simpler avatars to look like or perform.

 

I agree that I wish the clothes on the mesh avatars was in parts and easier to use and mix and match . 

[Ellith Blackwood]

😮 They should make all starter avatars wear random uniforms. Fast food worker, gas/petrol station attendant, firefighter, barista, etc. That way they can just be the random npcs that we already treat them as, until they truly join the world of the upgraded and glamorous. 😂🙃

[Mollymews]

13 hours ago, Ajay McDowwll said:

.. the Lab should have mesh avatars available that are more comparable to the popular mesh bodies on the grid -- ... in ... customization methods -- which would enable new residents to learn how to customize their avatars ...

 

this pretty much. A basic BOM mesh avatar (male and female versions) which allows the new person to mix n match their outfit

at the moment we can select a whole avatar appearance with Complete Avatars

what I think would be good is that there is a further dropdown selector on the dialog which shows the other assets that can be worn with the selected Complete Avatar.  Like different skins, eyes, hair, tops, bottoms, shoes, etc made for the selected starter avatar

[Conifer Dada]

I think LL should update the system avatar body.  With a bit of updating and a few extra sliders they'd be fine. I still happily use a system avatar, despite the known  shortcomings. 

An update of the system 'classic' avatar would include: -

Minor improvements to their mesh in certain areas, e.g hands, feet, shoulders, etc. while preserving the alignment of existing skin textures.

Some extra sliders allowing one to adjust basic stance of avatar before adding an AO, to raise or lower the knees in relation to leg length, to texture left and right arms and feet separately, and maybe even to 'bento-ize' the system avatar.

Then the starter avatars could be offered with a set of full-perms clothing complete with templates and the same for mesh hair.  

This would encourage creativity which would enhance the SL experience for a lot of people.

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Conifer Dada

[colleen Criss]

13 hours ago, Gilgamesh Alpha said:

I want these back as starter avs. I know you can find them in the library but they should be on the starter avatar menu.

I liked the little box bot avatar too.

[colleen Criss]

17 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

But we are still... people, not aliens. Why should new residents not want to customize their avatars and upgrade their visual apperance to their desire? That would be a first time in SLs history. The other issue is, that an eco-system will only form, if there is money to be made and that is only the case, if established residents would drop their current bodies and heads in favor of whatever LL puts out... and I'm not seeing that happening. LL is not without talent, but I simply don't see them out-compeating the existing brands.

 

Some people who sign up for SL want to be aliens not *human* . Not everyone signs into SL for *sex* either.

[Syo Emerald]

2 minutes ago, colleen Criss said:

Some people who sign up for SL want to be aliens not *human* . Not everyone signs into SL for *sex* either.

I talked about the person infront of the keyboard. And... I didn't even mention sex? I'm confused what that has to do with my comment.

[colleen Criss]

1 minute ago, Syo Emerald said:

I talked about the person infront of the keyboard. And... I didn't even mention sex? I'm confused what that has to do with my comment.

I am sorry I quoted the wrong person.

[Blaise Glendevon]

6 hours ago, Mollymews said:

this pretty much. A basic BOM mesh avatar (male and female versions) which allows the new person to mix n match their outfit

You'll still be stuck with the problem of the people who wear those off-brand "free" mesh avatars. Nobody makes clothes for them. Nobody makes skins for them. Will designers want to sink time into rigging for a population of people who won't even buy a mesh body? Sounds like they'd take a loss there, honestly.