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What I see ruining the SL economy


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8 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Capitalism isn't that, however. For one, it is regulated so that cheap, shoddy, and dangerous merchandise that harms the customer is outlawed.

...

 

Out in RL, the main 'other factor' is political interest, mostly political bribery.  And it is this that drives regulation, not an altruistic notion of quality.  As in 'I protect your kids, so you will vote for me', and 'I can't protect your kids, because company X pays my election expenses'.

This is why I think SL is quite a pure form of capitalism.  Sorry I don't have time for the rest of your post.

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56 minutes ago, Anna Nova said:

Out in RL, the main 'other factor' is political interest, mostly political bribery.  And it is this that drives regulation, not an altruistic notion of quality.  As in 'I protect your kids, so you will vote for me', and 'I can't protect your kids, because company X pays my election expenses'.

This is why I think SL is quite a pure form of capitalism.  Sorry I don't have time for the rest of your post.

So how does the exposure and prosecution of Theranos, for example, ever take place under your theory of capitalism. 

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On 1/19/2022 at 2:58 PM, Sid Nagy said:

That is what I'm looking for ever since I went over to mesh clothing,
A few good fitting suits. Not the ones that only look good when using a certain pose. Not the ones in gorilla style or sloppy wear, but with style as in style.
Haven't really found one yet to my liking.

You could try Lux Aeterna or L&C.

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On 1/19/2022 at 3:41 PM, MoiraKathleen said:

I think the flooded market of creators all thinking they all should be able to make a RL living from SL is a big part of the problem why creators may not have the level of sales they want, and why events and sales are so popular from the creator side of the equation.  Events and sales are a way for new or smaller creators to try and get some visibility and customers.

I also think that the sales are not contributing to the decline of SL.  If anything, it's the opposite - the weekend sales allow for new accounts to be able to dip their toes in getting clothing, furnishings, etc., without a large spending outlay initially before they've decided how involved they want to be here.

If you're not enjoying creating the things that you create, and running your store, then creation might not be the thing you should be doing here.  There are many ventures that people take up in SL not because it makes them any money (or might not even break even financially) but because it is something that they really enjoy doing.  I would hope that creators are also creating because it is something that they enjoy.   

Most events or sales I attend are because a creator whose group I belong to has sent out a notice about something they have at the event or sale.  If it looks interesting, I may go take a look, and while I'm there I often do take a quick look at other booths at the event.  Probably the only event that I consistently attend every year and at least take a peek at all the booths is the Fantasy Faire, and that's mainly because I like doing the associated quest.  

However, shopping is not the main reason I am in SL.  I've spent larger amounts of lindens buying mainland parcels and houses than on clothes or furnishings (and probably more on furnishings and landscape items than on clothes).  After the mad rush the first year or two to buy things just because I thought they might be useful someday, I've reached the point where I'd be fine if I never bought any more clothes or furnishings.  So, when I buy something now, it's because it's something that I've given some thought to and am pretty sure I will end up wearing or using it.  I no longer shop just to shop, even from events or weekend sales.

 

But you can't stop people from thinking -- and hoping -- they will make a living from SL, and at the end of the day, why shouldn't they? As I said before, this will have to be part of the Metaverse eventually or it can't grow.

I totally get that there is this theory of the Metaverse that it should be "for fun" or it should be "for aesthetics and art" or it should be "for me and my friends to socialize." But it's a bigger concept than that, where millions of people will be inhabiting a virtualized world that will be partly digital twins of real life and partly fantasy realms.

You seem to imply that there is something inherently virtuous about a world where no one can make a living, or where only altruistic commune members do arts and crafts for the good of the commune, or philanthropists generously support the worthy. In short, a Renaissance Faire.

But there's no inherent virtue in a society that cannot sustain a significant number of its members somehow. SL actually has a very diverse and robust economy compared to the hunter-gatherer economies of World of Warcraft where people have to mine gold or make mods to the game and sell them outside of the game illegally. In SL, the economy is legal, and there are all kinds of ways of entering it, from working lowly jobs as bouncers or rentals agents or strippers, to working as land managers to photographers to event managers to more skilled work as designers and scripters -- it's unlike anything in the history of games and worlds. It is more like Etsy and Amazon for third party sellers, and that's a good thing. Likely at this time in SL's history, it supports more people actually making a living in RL than at any time before. A few people making millions as land barons or as top hair designers, as in SL's "Golden Age" -- and their demise -- can't obscure the fact that all kinds of people have businesses large and small making clothing, furniture, and pets. If it doesn't totally cover their RL expenses, it covers some or at the very least it offsets the sometimes considerable expenses of the virtual world (if you do things like buy a mesh body for 4000L which is US $16, hardly a day's groceries.)

If you reached your personal level of satiation as many of us oldbies have who feel no need to buy ourselves new clothes or furniture or pots and pans (and are actually like that in RL, too), that isn't a total description of the world where younger generations/newbies come in and buy all kinds of things we think are a waste of money -- if in RL, yet another i-phone or tablet or exercise bike, and if in SL, a mesh body and an airplane. But that's not a model of a viable world or even a description of the world we have -- that everyone is supposed to consume furiously and then reach a state of Zen and live on an ashram with prim hair and flexi robes into old age, and that this is a virtue. As I mentioned to the vlogger who posted a YouTube saying she was getting out of the rat race and the events frenzy and craziness and not even shopping much any more, the fact that her "farewell" video had a list of elaborate style notions right down to the lipstick meant that she would likely continue at least personal shopping, she noted that she had 20 mesh heads. 20!

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1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

But you can't stop people from thinking -- and hoping -- they will make a living from SL, and at the end of the day, why shouldn't they?

I have no problem with people thinking and hoping they will make a living from SL.   Nor do I have a problem with them doing so, whether they do it as a hobby or as a more serious endeavor to actually try to make a living from SL.  If that's their dream and they have the skills to do so, more power to them.       

What I had a problem with (and what I was responding to) was the attitude of the OP of this particular thread complaining about the flooded market and 50L weekend sales and how it made them question what they were receiving in return for the amount of time they were spending creating items.   

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12 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Well, you can adopt that position for now, but it's not one that is sustainable long-term.

The Metaverse *will* get built, just like the Internet got built, in spite of some people and some companies and some countries.

If it ever comes to a Metaverse, then it will be another cup of tea indeed. But we were talking about SL and its economy in this thread. And I know one thing for sure if there will be a Metaverse it will not be based on SL and all its design flaws. LL might be one of the players, if they turn out to be flexible enough, but SL has totally no chance.
If a Metaverse wants to succeed, it has to be based on completely other principles and software concepts  than SL. But that is something far outside the discussion in this thread IMHO.

 

Edited by Sid Nagy
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11 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So how does the exposure and prosecution of Theranos, for example, ever take place under your theory of capitalism. 

I don't really know, I'm not an American and don't follow things there very closely.

Edited by Anna Nova
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10 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

If it ever comes to a Metaverse, then it will be another cup of tea indeed. But we were talking about SL and its economy in this thread. And I know one thing for sure if there will be a Metaverse it will not be based on SL and all its design flaws. LL might be one of the players, if they turn out to be flexible enough, but SL has totally no chance.
If a Metaverse wants to succeed, it has to be based on completely other principles and software concepts  than SL. But that is something far outside the discussion in this thread IMHO.

 

It's not, though. There isn't a single other world that has anything approaching the diversity, flexibility -- and reality -- of this economy. Worlds where you spend a fortune buying a map location of a digital twin in RL isn't comparable. Games where you buy lootboxes isn't comparable. So this is it. This is the prototype and it's important as a model. Right now LL intervenes to keep the cost of the Linden dollar down through printing money, and keeps the cost of land down by recycling abandoned land increasingly fast and adding Bellisseria tracts speedily. That takes its toll on the economy overall as well. 

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I don't see how the lower prices effect the economy. If anything it keeps the wheel rolling. Most of these cheap priced items are past releases that initially were much more. More often than not the creator has already recouped what they spent in time (assuming they invested some in advertising and marketing) before an item is released for some discount such as FLF or the weekend deals. Where literally any amount the creator makes from it is just bonus anyways + they bring views for other items at their store that are full price.

Edited by Finite
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2 hours ago, Finite said:

Most of these cheap priced items are past releases that initially were much more.

I've bought stuff full price at a store only to find it on FLF the next week. 😛 I stopped buying any fullprice items at stores that were regularly doing this. In contrast, I know of a store that offers sales on it's new releases, plus a limited design freebie - this is one of the few shops I still visit regularly and will buy fullprice items. 

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4 hours ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

That perception easily manipulated by people like me, advertising agencies with a staff of psychologists to understand and take emotional and financial advantage of people's irrational desires. ;)

Yes, of course.  I never said otherwise.

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On 1/19/2022 at 2:58 PM, Sid Nagy said:

That is what I'm looking for ever since I went over to mesh clothing,
A few good fitting suits. Not the ones that only look good when using a certain pose. Not the ones in gorilla style or sloppy wear, but with style as in style.
Haven't really found one yet to my liking.

Hoorenbeek and Deadwool are the two best male suit designers by far. Deadwool is pricier and Hoorenbeek tends to offer a lot more options, but both are top of the line.

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On 1/19/2022 at 2:58 PM, Sid Nagy said:

That is what I'm looking for ever since I went over to mesh clothing,
A few good fitting suits. Not the ones that only look good when using a certain pose. Not the ones in gorilla style or sloppy wear, but with style as in style.
Haven't really found one yet to my liking.

42 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

Hoorenbeek and Deadwool are the two best male suit designers by far. Deadwool is pricier and Hoorenbeek tends to offer a lot more options, but both are top of the line.

Just don't expect Cris to recommend a good maker of men's pants.

He wouldn't know.

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On 1/19/2022 at 11:46 AM, rocksBoxer said:

Sorry folks, but this is how the world works; from life-saving meds to makeup, you get what you pay for, and progress comes out of the reward. Ladies, do you buy the dollar store makeup? Hell no, so why would you do the same to your avatar.

Two incorrect assumptions here. Generic medicines are highly regulated and effectively the same as the brand-name ones, despite being a fraction of the price. And the "dollar store makeup" here is rather like high end makeup that's been heavily discounted to make way for new releases. A more accurate way to phrase the question, then: "Do you prefer paying more for the same results?"

The answer is no.

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SL creation is a playground, a primer for the knock down, drag-out world of RL e-commerce.
Survival of the fittest & smartest.
Smartest meaning the most devoted to quality/product longevity and being able to prove it..
Fittest meaning prepared to tackle armies of low paid workers head on with technology 
and innovation. (with respect to mother earth and nature).

Precisely why I gave up creating for SL.
The tech I needed {mesh} was not available at the time.

Edited by Maryanne Solo
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On 1/19/2022 at 5:46 AM, rocksBoxer said:

Let us start with people claiming, "No way can I buy anything over 75L, I just do not have it," with your Maitreya body and the current tending mesh 5k head while living in the weekly RP rental.
Honestly, I left for years and returned to a flooded market and 50L weekends. The value to spend 40 plus hours in a week crafting in z brush and blender, scripting for hours creating HUDs for options is just not worth it. There is no fix to the decline of Secondlife if it continues on this course. Sorry folks, but this is how the world works; from life-saving meds to makeup, you get what you pay for, and progress comes out of the reward. Ladies, do you buy the dollar store makeup? Hell no, so why would you do the same to your avatar.
You can hate on me all you like, but that is my opinion.

 

 

Second Life would be better off without people trying to make a RL living here. You know where the door is, don’t let it hit you on the way out.

And like you said, “You can hate on me all you like, but that is my opinion.”

This was not the intent of Second Life, the intent was a place to have fun. I was told by one creator as she closed her store as mesh was taking over, I started creating for fun, its not fun any longer.

And the abomination that the clothing market now with so many different bodies that need to be independently rigged for, its sickening.

If you would like to know what is killing Second Life, its the exorbitantly high prices, people will just pack up and leave rather than put out that much money because “that’s not fun”.

 

I was wondering why my PayPal account was getting bigger rather than smaller as it did in the past as I add my monthly spending money, then I realized my spending on clothing has tapered off considerably. But with an inventory of almost 100K, well I can live on what I have for years and never purchase another article of clothing again, but when the prices come down something new and pretty will be a pleasant change, even fun again.

If you don’t like the work to create, then move along, you will not be missed. There are creators that like Second Life and are not actively trying to kill it!

Reminds me of a story, something about a bird and some kind of egg, don’t remember exactly.

 

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I don't think L$50 items are destroying SL. There may certainly be too many events going on, but my grievance with them is that they are always for women's clothes. It is so hard to find anything else for any other kind of avatar. But if I do find something and it's on sale, there's a good chance I'm buying it on principle, and that's money in the creator's pocket. It's not much, but impulse purchases are a quick money maker, and L$50 is very easy to part with on a lark.

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Total lack of support?

I spent some L$ to buy stuff a few big makers, like a certain dance machine company who raves about their own customer support, had delivery failures and an automated "We have your L$ for this nocopy item, a CSR will be with you shortly to send the product as it can't be redelivered." several months and three support tickets ago.

They got me for 300 L$, and lost about 40k L$ in sales.

I spend, probably a lot more than I should, but when I have hobby scripters respond on a 10 L$ item instantly and big companies who sell hundred *dollar* products ignore their customers it makes me a bit wary of trusting them to hold up their end of things on any purchase I can't just eat if it turns out to be a bust.

Also, for the love of the gods...

Stop with the fatpack bonuses that are visible in the single color demo and then not in the product. If you're going to cut an item up into dozens of little annoying nomod HUD textured things at least do a good job of representing what is being purchased. Being able to change the color of a zipper is *not* worth 1500 L$ per item on a three piece set I only want in black.

And, if you're selling furniture not clothes...

Always make it copy/mod.

Edited by NanashiNyx
Grammar
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I have actually been enjoying some of these events and sales recently. I managed to pick up a few nice things for 50L$ and that. I think earning lindens isn't easy for everyone but I must say I think seeing all these shopping events going off is really lovely. There are really nice clothes and things you can get in the sales. Having said that I have also been able to pick up a lot of decent freebies and things for 1L$ a few times. Also I do find that those stores that have been generous with giving gifts and cheap stuff. I do often go back to visiting those stores later on and then I spend quite a bit once I have the lindens to spend.

I think the shopping events do make secondlife really interesting and to those store owners who are generous with giving out stuff cheap and gifts. I don't ever forget those good generous designers and stores. So definitely keep those events going. Looking forward to doing more shopping.

 

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