What I see ruining the SL economy

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

16 minutes ago, Hunny Bunny said:

Would it not be easier if someone followed a "dead link" to have a way to report it as such?

Maybe report the link in a review or PM the owner in world?

As for shopping --- I rarely go as a couple times I went to a shop to see a pretty dress I was interested in (via a notice in one of the groups) only to find out it's in one of those stupid conveyor systems and it's # is not even visible yet. Miepon or something I think.

[Syo Emerald]

7 hours ago, rocksBoxer said:

The value to spend 40 plus hours in a week crafting in z brush and blender, scripting for hours creating HUDs for options is just not worth it.

Then don't do it. Whats your issue?

7 hours ago, rocksBoxer said:

you get what you pay for

I got a damn cool collage of pictures today for 0 L$. And by the way: Judgeing a product by its price alone is for stupid people.

[Katherine Heartsong]

"You get what you pay for?" In SL? Not sure what you mean.

As others have pointed out I've seen great clothing for 250L with a full range of colours that fit amazing and look even better at one shop, and similar styles at another well-known brand that would set me back L2500 for a fat-pack with 6 fewer colours. It varies widely. Most creators outside the big names aren't in it for the money, we do it for the joy of creating or the smile it brings to our customers, and sometimes offer amazing value for money. 

I just spent 3 hours of my RL morning scratching out a new abstract piece of art for my gallery that is a one-off (sold one time) and that will sell for L350, the equivalent of about CDN$2. You get a one-off piece of my art, and I get $2. I love that, but I am rather nuts. Not sure how that fits into your OP.

PS. And there's no such thing as a "free market", that's simply an economist's wet dream. Someone always sets rules for markets historically, and perfect information (to make the best/most rationale buying decision as a consumer) is not in the seller's interest to ever disclose. I've spent much of my career in the field of making you desire and buy stuff you do not need, and it has nothing to do with information .. it's all about manipulation, lying by omission, and understanding your emotional cravings.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Katherine Heartsong

[Ayashe Ninetails]

18 minutes ago, Tarani Tempest said:

TBH my best sales in the last year, were sets I made for Fantasy and Cyberpunk Event/Fairs.  I also adore making stuff for those types of events, because it is fun for me.  That they sell well , is icing on the cake.

These are my favorite events to shop at, as well! I always manage to find something new I've never heard of before that leads to even more purchases (for example, finding gorgeous BOM skins for a mermaid tail at We Love Roleplay - wait, there's a BOM mermaid tail? Runs out to price said BOM mermaid tail...saves up to buy said BOM mermaid tail...returns to event weeks later to purchase the BOM skin). I just don't have that same experience shopping at the more mainstream events (weekend sales are different - I do shop those). For the big, sim-crashing events though, very rarely do I buy anything and almost never does it lead to additional purchases.

 

[Syo Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

"You get what you pay for?" In SL? Not sure what you mean.

Its not even true in RL. Prices contain much more than pure effort of work and ressources. Paying more for brand products is a thing. Paying more, because something is supposed to be a luxury version item. Paying more, because a company has additional cost factors or just wants a larger profit... its everywhere from food in the supermarket to obscure hobby items.

[Hunny Bunny]

14 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Maybe report the link in a review or PM the owner in world?

Make it difficult and people won't do it.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

3 minutes ago, Hunny Bunny said:

Make it difficult and people won't do it.

Another option I thought after I slammed the submit button would to put a "bad link" thing under the in world shop location slurl.

[Hunny Bunny]

9 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Another option I thought after I slammed the submit button would to put a "bad link" thing under the in world shop location slurl.

Much better solution I think. 🙂

[Krystina Ferraris]

18 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

Its not even true in RL. Prices contain much more than pure effort of work and ressources. Paying more for brand products is a thing. Paying more, because something is supposed to be a luxury version item. Paying more, because a company has additional cost factors or just wants a larger profit... its everywhere from food in the supermarket to obscure hobby items.

Exactly, same goes for paying less for a product because it’s made in sweat shops or without any regards for the welfare of those making it or by torturing animals.

[Sid Nagy]

2 hours ago, Leahndra said:

 formal (especially for men, i think there are only 3 good formal outfits?) ... i would buy it all

That is what I'm looking for ever since I went over to mesh clothing,
A few good fitting suits. Not the ones that only look good when using a certain pose. Not the ones in gorilla style or sloppy wear, but with style as in style.
Haven't really found one yet to my liking.

[Hunny Bunny]

2 minutes ago, Krystina Ferraris said:

paying less for a product because it’s made in sweat shops

A lot of really expensive and high end items are made in those sweat shops too.

[Krystina Ferraris]

2 minutes ago, Hunny Bunny said:

A lot of really expensive and high end items are made in those sweat shops too.

Yes and some also use real fur which is no excuse, on any item.

Mine wasn’t a mutually exclusive statement, was just an additional thought to Syo’s comment.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Krystina Ferraris

[LittleMe Jewell]

15 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

That is what I'm looking for ever since I went over to mesh clothing,
A few good fitting suits. Not the ones that only look good when using a certain pose. Not the ones in gorilla style or sloppy wear, but with style as in style.
Haven't really found one yet to my liking.

Peruse Skell's blog:  https://virtualbloke.com/

And maybe ping @Cristiano Midnight - I know he has a nice suit or two.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

And here I am wishing I could clone myself so I could keep up with my to do list.

[MoiraKathleen]

8 hours ago, rocksBoxer said:

Let us start with people claiming, "No way can I buy anything over 75L, I just do not have it," with your Maitreya body and the current tending mesh 5k head while living in the weekly RP rental.
Honestly, I left for years and returned to a flooded market and 50L weekends. The value to spend 40 plus hours in a week crafting in z brush and blender, scripting for hours creating HUDs for options is just not worth it. There is no fix to the decline of Secondlife if it continues on this course. Sorry folks, but this is how the world works; from life-saving meds to makeup, you get what you pay for, and progress comes out of the reward. Ladies, do you buy the dollar store makeup? Hell no, so why would you do the same to your avatar.
You can hate on me all you like, but that is my opinion.

 

I think the flooded market of creators all thinking they all should be able to make a RL living from SL is a big part of the problem why creators may not have the level of sales they want, and why events and sales are so popular from the creator side of the equation.  Events and sales are a way for new or smaller creators to try and get some visibility and customers.

I also think that the sales are not contributing to the decline of SL.  If anything, it's the opposite - the weekend sales allow for new accounts to be able to dip their toes in getting clothing, furnishings, etc., without a large spending outlay initially before they've decided how involved they want to be here.

If you're not enjoying creating the things that you create, and running your store, then creation might not be the thing you should be doing here.  There are many ventures that people take up in SL not because it makes them any money (or might not even break even financially) but because it is something that they really enjoy doing.  I would hope that creators are also creating because it is something that they enjoy.   

Most events or sales I attend are because a creator whose group I belong to has sent out a notice about something they have at the event or sale.  If it looks interesting, I may go take a look, and while I'm there I often do take a quick look at other booths at the event.  Probably the only event that I consistently attend every year and at least take a peek at all the booths is the Fantasy Faire, and that's mainly because I like doing the associated quest.  

However, shopping is not the main reason I am in SL.  I've spent larger amounts of lindens buying mainland parcels and houses than on clothes or furnishings (and probably more on furnishings and landscape items than on clothes).  After the mad rush the first year or two to buy things just because I thought they might be useful someday, I've reached the point where I'd be fine if I never bought any more clothes or furnishings.  So, when I buy something now, it's because it's something that I've given some thought to and am pretty sure I will end up wearing or using it.  I no longer shop just to shop, even from events or weekend sales.

 

[Wilma Philbin]

I've found many creators on events on Seraphim.  It means I go to the inworld or marketplace store to shop and pay full price. I think taking part in the events is a good way for creators that offer quality to reach new customers. It's not easy for us customers to find the good creators either.

[Maitimo]

9 hours ago, rocksBoxer said:

Ladies, do you buy the dollar store makeup? 

 

Yes actually I do, (well, actually mostly fatpacks at Glamorize, which tend to be priced at L$1 per colour, so I might pay L$20 or more for a pack but thats a lot of colours. I wear them on my free gift mesh head.

 

 

[Aiyumei]

9 hours ago, Hunny Bunny said:

A lot of really expensive and high end items are made in those sweat shops too.

Apple phones and Nike's shoes are great example for that. Key components for making mobile phones are dug out from the ground by kids with sticks, let that sink in.

 

7 hours ago, Wilma Philbin said:

I've found many creators on events on Seraphim.  It means I go to the inworld or marketplace store to shop and pay full price

Me too, I've found many creators through all the weekend sales events which I know happily shop from at full price.

For those who are unhappy with the market tendencies now get used to it. Thats how economics work, people's need change and so do markets. There are probably more people nowadays who can't afford to spend as much as they used to and for that stores and creators adapt and change to meet their needs, even if that would mean changing their whole business model and having 400 events 
Imagine having to go through 400 or at least 10 events inworld one by one? Total waste of time, right? That's where Seraphim steps in, it gives us the ability to check every ongoing event that interests with few clicks and when something catches our eye, they also provide us with direct link to visit the event/store and buy what we want. Yes there are mistakes with SLurls at times but that's due to the people factor, we're not flawless.

I don't know about everyone here who complains or is happy about the changes in the markets, but ever since more and more sales events begun happening I found myself spending A LOT more than I used to in the past. I don't see how that can be bad for the creators. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Aiyumei

[Akane Nacht]

11 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

All of this. The Seraphim-style mainstream shopping experience is one thing, but if you're looking for clothing/accessories outside of that (*raises hand furiously*), these events and sales will barely offer you very much. If a designer wants to charge more than the flood of typical 50L-75L event/weekend sales allow, they could enter the goth, punk, unisex/nonbinary, fantasy, cyberpunk, athleisure, vintage, boho, grunge, glam rock, techwear, formal/black tie, business wear, cosplay, 1920s, rockabilly, etc. etc. etc. fashion markets and make a killing. Primarily because of me - I need ALL of this in my life. Please, take my money. Thank you. 😂

 

Indeed! I'd open my wallet for greater variety of Indian fashion, historical Chinese and Mongolian outfits, Eastern European traditional dress, historically accurate medieval wear, etc etc. I know there are designers for some of this but selection is tiny. I was so happy to find one non-regal hanfu once, and it was only 50L and took a lot of searching. Compare with the kimono market- there are hundreds (and I think I bought half of them). If any designers are reading this, money awaits... 😊

[Anna Nova]

The wonderful thing about capitalism is that it works.  (well so long as the misgoverment prevents monopolies etc., from forming)

In SL we have a particularly pure form of capitalism with almost full laissez-faire.  It is not surprising that those who can't compete start moaning.  Nobody ever said that a Capitalist Society is a fun place to compete if you aren't one of the winners.

In Capitalism, a winner is defined as someone who has gotten customers and kept them while making a profit.  Please note the words Customers, and Kept them. This is what Marketing is all about.

So if you are complaining, it's because your marketing is crap.  NB  Marketing is not about publicity per se, but mostly about reputation.

(there is no charge for this wisdom, I give it to you for free, to enhance mine)

[Ayashe Ninetails]

8 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

Indeed! I'd open my wallet for greater variety of Indian fashion, historical Chinese and Mongolian outfits, Eastern European traditional dress, historically accurate medieval wear, etc etc. I know there are designers for some of this but selection is tiny. I was so happy to find one non-regal hanfu once, and it was only 50L and took a lot of searching. Compare with the kimono market- there are hundreds (and I think I bought half of them). If any designers are reading this, money awaits... 😊

Very much agree with this, too!

"If any designers are reading this, money awaits..." - I feel like we need a new thread for all of these great ideas and this should be the title, lol.

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 hours ago, Anna Nova said:

In Capitalism, a winner is defined as someone who has gotten customers and kept them while making a profit.  Please note the words Customers, and Kept them. This is what Marketing is all about.

Note also the complete absence of the word "quality."

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/19/2022 at 9:12 AM, Sid Nagy said:

SL is NOT created for people to make a RL living out of it.  It is only a POSSIBILITY to do so, some try, a few succeed.
Many don't and are a merchant/creator more or less as a roleplayer, a hobbyist.
The fun of creating is their main goal. Getting some L$ out of it a sign of appreciation.
They are like the endless number of club owners, dj's, hosts, dancers etc. and they all know that their business is a money sink and accept that.
The time spend to create/work in SL would bring in a lot more money when spend with burger flipping at McD or as a news paper boy in RL.
Breaking even on SL tier/rent and some pocket money to spend in SL is the dreamed target for most of us.

There is NO ENTITLEMENT that you can make a living out of SL. (Except for the people at LL of course.)
So don't tell others how to do their business or not. Find your way in the jungle and if the outcome doesn't suit you, don't be a merchant or creator in SL.

Enjoying SL to the max as a consumer costs money, just like almost every hobby, but there should be no need to leave half your RL salary in SL only to cater creators and merchants who think they need to make their RL income here.

 

Well, you can adopt that position for now, but it's not one that is sustainable long-term.

The Metaverse *will* get built, just like the Internet got built, in spite of some people and some companies and some countries.

So eventually it will have to devise ways for people to make a living online, unless by that time there are only a few big super rich platforms with highly skilled and highly paid workers -- like the Renaissance era in the Middle Ages -- and the rest of the people are starving peasants, perhaps kept alive by heavy taxation or philanthropy -- or not.

So that means some people will do their old jobs in medicine or education, for example, which have been moved online due to the pandemic, and more and more apps and affordances will be created to virtualize their jobs and make them work better. But other people will make their livings in the virtual world itself, or around it. They will either make all the stuff that sustains virtualization, all the technology, hardware, software on those big platforms -- or they will make stuff for the world itself. So the more diversity and more entrees into the economy there are, the better. SL is the first experiment in this. The Lindens claim the GDP is $650 million. They don't say how much of that goes to tier and how much is cashed out. I would suspect probably more than half goes to tier, and maybe a quarter is cashed out, maybe a lot less.

So you can natter on about jungles and social Darwinism and so on but it's more than fine to figure out how people CAN make a living in not just a game and not just a sandbox world but real life that has been virtualized, and not only due to the pandemic, but due to climate change, forest fires, floods, wars, terrorism, etc.

Few people go around whining that they have "left half their RL salary" to Netflix or Starbucks -- they spent $6 or $4. They don't mind paying entertainment costs and unnecessary food costs for fun and relaxation.  But that's exactly what they spend in SL when they spend $1500L or $1000L. So I see no reason to begrudge creators in SL that, where a painting can cost 1000L and a skin 1500. Let's say the average salary is $2000. Where is anyone leaving "half their salary" in SL? How can you spend US $1000 a month -- half your salary needed for food and shelter? It's pretty hard to do. The people who *do* spend that in SL on say, a recent Blake Sea parcel of 2048 m2, have it to spend, in RL and SL. They are at the top of a tiny apex. But that's not what is required to buy a mesh body or clothes or accessories. That figure is more like US $50. And that figure people will spend in RL on entertainment.

[Prokofy Neva]

14 hours ago, Anna Nova said:

The wonderful thing about capitalism is that it works.  (well so long as the misgoverment prevents monopolies etc., from forming)

In SL we have a particularly pure form of capitalism with almost full laissez-faire.  It is not surprising that those who can't compete start moaning.  Nobody ever said that a Capitalist Society is a fun place to compete if you aren't one of the winners.

In Capitalism, a winner is defined as someone who has gotten customers and kept them while making a profit.  Please note the words Customers, and Kept them. This is what Marketing is all about.

So if you are complaining, it's because your marketing is crap.  NB  Marketing is not about publicity per se, but mostly about reputation.

(there is no charge for this wisdom, I give it to you for free, to enhance mine)

Capitalism isn't that, however. For one, it is regulated so that cheap, shoddy, and dangerous merchandise that harms the customer is outlawed.

But what you don't seem to concede is levels of quality and levels of expense in a diverse economy. There are economies in SL of people who put out items from the library, and buy DFS items and home-made items from their friends that are little better than the library. They have a right to be in that poor and cheap niche of the economy just as much as you have the right to be in an expensive and skilled one. The point is that to be sustainable, an economy needs the 99 cents store and Bonwit Teller. Oh, except Bonwit Teller went out of business. Was that due to "poor marketing" or somehow a poor location on 5th Avenue? No, of course not. There are more complex reasons for why companies like that went out of business and aren't only related to Donald Trump. Amazon ate their lunch; NYC's poor transportation lessened foot traffic; the decline of safety and sanitation; lots of things. These aren't all unrelated to SL, as Search being broken is like the subway running poorly in NYC or not at all (branches were closed due to rampant COVID among subway workers.)

In SL, you don't have to have this harsh and rigid notion of capitalism as "getting and keeping customers and making a profit". You can have *commerce* that is more socialized, that is about making something because you like creating; someone buys it to support you; you use the proceeds to buy a new outfit. That is still capitalism in some form and the profits aren't measured in the same balance sheet, just like the proceeds from a yard sale or a church bake sale don't always add up to real support.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 1/19/2022 at 2:26 PM, Katherine Heartsong said:

"You get what you pay for?" In SL? Not sure what you mean.

As others have pointed out I've seen great clothing for 250L with a full range of colours that fit amazing and look even better at one shop, and similar styles at another well-known brand that would set me back L2500 for a fat-pack with 6 fewer colours. It varies widely. Most creators outside the big names aren't in it for the money, we do it for the joy of creating or the smile it brings to our customers, and sometimes offer amazing value for money. 

I just spent 3 hours of my RL morning scratching out a new abstract piece of art for my gallery that is a one-off (sold one time) and that will sell for L350, the equivalent of about CDN$2. You get a one-off piece of my art, and I get $2. I love that, but I am rather nuts. Not sure how that fits into your OP.

PS. And there's no such thing as a "free market", that's simply an economist's wet dream. Someone always sets rules for markets historically, and perfect information (to make the best/most rationale buying decision as a consumer) is not in the seller's interest to ever disclose. I've spent much of my career in the field of making you desire and buy stuff you do not need, and it has nothing to do with information .. it's all about manipulation, lying by omission, and understanding your emotional cravings.

You could make limited editions of the "one-off", say, 20 copies, and achieve the same thing, really, and have more income.