Recommending Male Mesh Bodies...

[Orion Pastorelli]

So lately, I often find myself helping other men update to mesh bodies and heads. Some of these people are new to SL and others are old-timers who never took the plunge into mesh. When helping them decide on a mesh body, I often take them to the stores to get DEMOs of the top bodies. (Signature Gianni, Belleza Jake & Legacy)

I try to explain the pros and cons of each body, but often what ends up happening they ask me which one I would get.

Full disclosure:

I hate the geometry of the Signature Gianni body, I own it, but never wear it. I fully acknowledge, however,  its popularity and massive third-party support.

I loved Belleza Jake back in the day and just put up with the neck and hand issues. 

These days, I am all about the Legacy body and just work around its limitations like I did with Belleza, because it just looks so damn good.

Since the Jake was updated to v.3 and put on sale (L$ 1,500), it's the body I recommend. I tell them, at this point in time, it's the best value:  Looks way better than Gianni nude and has comparable third-party support.

What do you guys think? Am I doing right by these folks?

[Echelon Alcott]

I concur with your assessment and recommendation, Orion.

At the current price points, IMHO Jake is a bargain. With the latest Belleza update, Jake's neck issue has been addressed and it supports BOM. And Jake is well supported by clothing designers.

I use both Gianni and Jake. I personally like Jake because I can have more muscular legs using it. Even with the sliders at 100, Gianni's legs leave a bit to be desired for my taste.

One might argue that Legacy is superior compared to Jake, but my perception is that there are not enough benefits to justify the price difference between Legacy (L$5000) and Jake (L$1500).

[Marianne Little]

Is Legacy cheaper inworld? I found the price on the Marketplace is 5500.

And is Belleza still sold for 1500L? After so long time? I would not hesitate to recommend it. It is a bit tricky to find how to turn om BoM, but after that is done, it is easy.

I think the reason so many buy Gianni, is because men want those exaggerated  upper arms. Many men think they look great. And Gianni has been the "safe" to recommend in many years, due to Belleza's snail speed in updates.

So if we recommend Belleza and they buy Gianni instead, it is because Belleza did not give them the shoulders and upper arms they wanted.

[Isaac Ashton]

I own Gianni, Geralt and Jake, among others, but I mainly use Gianni. Probably because I'm used to its hud, etc. and I have a broader choice of clothes, even though some designers seem to turn away from Gianni. I'm probably just too lazy right now to make a complete move to another mesh body and fine tune my shape again for a better fit. Updating my looks with some new mesh heads already takes enough of my time.

Geralt is OK but somehow I never quite liked its look. As for Jake, I only got it recently because of the sale but I've only used it so far to grab some clothes I liked which weren't available for Gianni.

[Echelon Alcott]

2 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Is Legacy cheaper inworld? I found the price on the Marketplace is 5500.

Yes, it is L$5000 inworld.

2 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

And is Belleza still sold for 1500L? After so long time?

Yes, it is still on sale at L$1500.

[Carina Heartsong]

Legacy Athletic or Classic, you can't go wrong. Pair with a Lelutka head. I have found way more skin/shape options for this combo than any other. Clothing can be tricky but most designers of male clothing have come round to Legacy. So, if a guy asks me, this where I steer them. I have never liked Gianni or Jake (even updated). This is just my personal preference as far as guys' body types go. I tend to like in SL what I like in RL. 

[Maitimo]

18 hours ago, Orion Pastorelli said:

Since the Jake was updated to v.3 and put on sale (L$ 1,500), it's the body I recommend. I tell them, at this point in time, it's the best value:  Looks way better than Gianni nude and has comparable third-party support.

What do you guys think? Am I doing right by these folks?

I would agree with recommending Jake right now. A third party hand AO is still required but with the body price so low it's still a bargain (and these days, most people have bento animations in their regular AO anyway). Even at full price, Jake is still L$1000 cheaper than Gianni and L$2000 cheaper than Legacy.

I would not recommend Legacy at all because of it's excessive price, over-the-top complexity and dreadful business practises.

Signature Geralt is still my favourite for the way it looks, but there is so little clothing support for it. That said, if someone really likes Geralt better than Jake I'd say go for it; some clothes made for Jake will fit Geralt close enough (with use of alphas).

Edited January 6, 2022 by Maitimo

[Marigold Devin]

Just now, Maitimo said:

I would agree with recommending Jake right now. A third party hand AO is still required but with the body price so low it's still a bargain (and these days, most people have bento animations in their regular AO anyway). Even at full price, Jake is still L$1000 cheaper than Gianni and L$2000 cheaper than Legacy.

Signature Geralt is still my favourite for the way it looks, but there is so little clothing support for it. That said, if someone really likes Geralt better than Jake I'd say go for it; some clothes made for Jake will fit Geralt close enough (with use of alphas).

I would always take your recommendations. Your avatars always look unique and very good. 

[Alwin Alcott]

i would never ever recommend the legacy aka tmp for their past. Do i forgive their greed? Yes, but won't get a dime from me anymore in al eternity.

It's a bit harder to choose between Gianni and Jake,  both have their pro and contra's. My choice is mostly based on the use of the hud, i like the Jake more and easier.
One of me also has the Geralt .. but never really sticked on me and also gave him Jake after the price change.

[Echelon Alcott]

16 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

i would never ever recommend the legacy aka tmp for their past. Do i forgive their greed? Yes, but won't get a dime from me anymore in al eternity.

For the benefit of those ones who were not around when it happened, what is the back story around Legacy and TMP? I was away from SL for 8 years, so no idea what happened.

[Blaise Glendevon]

2 hours ago, Echelon Alcott said:

For the benefit of those ones who were not around when it happened, what is the back story around Legacy and TMP? I was away from SL for 8 years, so no idea what happened.

They sold the original TMP body at a price much higher than their nearest competitors (a rework of that body is now available as a group gift in their store) as a Beta, but never made any real improvements to it. All the TMP/Legacy/Meshbody HUDs work on an outside-of-SL server, so if they decide to kill the product or go out of business, your $5K body no longer works. The original TMP body is no longer functional for the people who did purchase it, and they now decry any connection to the brand TMP.  They have claimed the words "Mesh body" as the brand name Meshbody, ostensibly to confuse the search results when a new SL user googles the term. [Edited, because I forgot] The old TMP store wouldn't let you just pay for what you wanted. You had to buy store credit in increments of $L500 and then if you didn't use the whole amount, you just had random store credit that you had to top-up again to finish using. Lots of people had unfulfilled credits when TMP closed.

Just a whole lot of shady stuff. Though, for all their criticism, theirs was the first really smart mesh body launch. They partnered with (I assume paid) the top designers to rig and release exclusives for the body and have vendors in their stores. More body makers should take that hint. I actually bought the women's Legacy on Black Friday a few years ago and think it's super cute, but it's not my daily driver body. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Blaise Glendevon

[Blaise Glendevon]

Double post.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Blaise Glendevon

[Echelon Alcott]

1 hour ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

They sold the original TMP body at a price much higher than their nearest competitors (a rework of that body is now available as a group gift in their store) as a Beta, but never made any real improvements to it. All the TMP/Legacy/Meshbody HUDs work on an outside-of-SL server, so if they decide to kill the product or go out of business, your $5K body no longer works. The original TMP body is no longer functional for the people who did purchase it, and they now decry any connection to the brand TMP.  They have claimed the words "Mesh body" as the brand name Meshbody, ostensibly to confuse the search results when a new SL user googles the term. [Edited, because I forgot] The old TMP store wouldn't let you just pay for what you wanted. You had to buy store credit in increments of $L500 and then if you didn't use the whole amount, you just had random store credit that you had to top-up again to finish using. Lots of people had unfulfilled credits when TMP closed.

Just a whole lot of shady stuff. Though, for all their criticism, theirs was the first really smart mesh body launch. They partnered with (I assume paid) the top designers to rig and release exclusives for the body and have vendors in their stores. More body makers should take that hint. I actually bought the women's Legacy on Black Friday a few years ago and think it's super cute, but it's not my daily driver body. 

Thanks for sharing. I agree it sounds like very poor business practices, intended solely for their own benefit without consideration or respect for the customers. The fact that they try to distance/dissociate themselves from the original TMP and pretend to not have any responsibility is despicable. And it seems like they have not changed, still charging a much higher price for their mesh body compared to the competition.

Are their HUDs the only ones (compared to Belleza and Signature) that work on an outside-of-SL server and can be killed at any moment? If so, then it is an even stronger reason to not recommend them.

[Blaise Glendevon]

2 minutes ago, Echelon Alcott said:

 

Are their HUDs the only ones (compared to Belleza and Signature) that work on an outside-of-SL server and can be killed at any moment?

I don't know if any other body makers are using an off the grid hud, but they have already shown a willingness to brick bodies. So that does have to go into your decision making metrics.

[Nick0678]

2 hours ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

They sold the original TMP body at a price much higher than their nearest competitors (a rework of that body is now available as a group gift in their store) as a Beta, but never made any real improvements to it. All the TMP/Legacy/Meshbody HUDs work on an outside-of-SL server, so if they decide to kill the product or go out of business, your $5K body no longer works....

Nah never again TMP . If they decide to turn off their servers everything is lost.

**Of course the same policy applies for Linden Lab/Second Life, undoubtedly in the future a lot of folks will freak out once it stops making enough money and LL will have to pull the plug.

(photo: Home PS4 online world, expired 2015)

Edited January 7, 2022 by Nick0678

[LilNosferatu]

6 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

Nah never again TMP . If they decide to turn off their servers everything is lost.

**Of course the same policy applies for Linden Lab/Second Life, undoubtedly in the future a lot of folks will freak out once it stops making enough money and LL will have to pull the plug.

(photo: Home PS4 online world, expired 2015)

Maaaaan that's so sad, I forgot about PS Home... ;--; I didn't play it too much but it was fun when I didn't really wanna play anything else. I heard how everyone just met up and hung out together in the final moments.

[Claireschen Hesten]

2 hours ago, Echelon Alcott said:

Are their HUDs the only ones (compared to Belleza and Signature) that work on an outside-of-SL server and can be killed at any moment? If so, then it is an even stronger reason to not recommend them.

TMP/Lagacy is the only body/head brand i know of that relies on an external server. any "appliers" for their bodies/heads (TMP used to do heads too) had to be on their server and sold as an "installer" the only place i've ever seen TMP installers was at Redgrave skins. To TMP's credit their in house clothing was really nicely done and eventually made free just the HUD based shopping process to get them was a pain in the ar*e and all the textures are on their server which you can't access on the classic body HUD if you only ever had the free TMP body. unlike all the other mesh bodies on the market the high aka Ouch women's foot shape wasn't included with the body you had to pay extra

[StarlanderGoods]

On 1/5/2022 at 2:34 PM, Orion Pastorelli said:

So lately, I often find myself helping other men update to mesh bodies and heads. Some of these people are new to SL and others are old-timers who never took the plunge into mesh. When helping them decide on a mesh body, I often take them to the stores to get DEMOs of the top bodies. (Signature Gianni, Belleza Jake & Legacy)

I try to explain the pros and cons of each body, but often what ends up happening they ask me which one I would get.

Full disclosure:

I hate the geometry of the Signature Gianni body, I own it, but never wear it. I fully acknowledge, however,  its popularity and massive third-party support.

I loved Belleza Jake back in the day and just put up with the neck and hand issues. 

These days, I am all about the Legacy body and just work around its limitations like I did with Belleza, because it just looks so damn good.

Since the Jake was updated to v.3 and put on sale (L$ 1,500), it's the body I recommend. I tell them, at this point in time, it's the best value:  Looks way better than Gianni nude and has comparable third-party support.

What do you guys think? Am I doing right by these folks?

Legacy Athletic, if you dont mind the price and a neck line, or the new Kario, wich is very similar in shape to the Legacy Athletic body and 1000 L$ cheaper.  And no, the Kario is not a bodybuilder body, if you use fit with a regular skin, it is pretty flexible.

Gianni has a lot of support, but it is a bit limited in how much you can edit it. If you are going for short and cute, Gianni is probably the best choice, I cant give my opinion on Belleza Jake, because I only demoed it for a bit.

[Marianne Little]

To build a bit on the TMP bodies, another shady part of the model was that they sold different versions, gradually increasing in price. And if memory serves me right, only the top priced had alpha cuts, the most important part of a body. Especially since rigging of clothes was not totally stellar from other sellers. So, to have tattoo layers (the step under in price) and an alpha hud, you had to pay 10 000 L! 😒

It is some years ago, so I am not 100% sure about the heads. Was it different prices there too? And was they 10 000 or "only" 5000? This was before Bento and BoM, so it wasn't possible to customize the shape of it as today, and no animations or expressions besides closed and slightly parted mouth.

Anyway, I had the most expensive body on three avatars and a head on two. This was when I was in good health and worked a lot in RL, so I have no need to complain about what I spent. Money spent is money spent.

It was annoying as f*** to shop clothes and shoes there too. TMP's own clothes was well made and had a great fit, but I had to pay the HUD and shop via the HUD. It was slow and the HUD took almost all the screen with small images of the clothes, to compare with the sale posters. We could not pay vendors directly, it was no normal vendors! And the HUD took fixed amounts that was hard to match up with the prices on clothes and shoes. I am sure I had some small amount of §L on their HUD's when they closed down. But many customers with §L?

And still, the look of their (old and) new bodies is good, I credit them for that.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Marianne Little

[Alwin Alcott]

14 hours ago, Echelon Alcott said:

Thanks for sharing.

and not to skip : no support at all.. first time around there were some helpers ( mostly "just" residents help residents" .. but that devaluated fast, last years of the brand ... tottally none)

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

And if memory serves me right, only the top priced had alpha cuts,

They had either the free version when they started or the paid for beta version which was 5000L.  The paid for version did have alpha cuts and layers.  

[Catrie]

54 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

To build a bit on the TMP bodies, another shady part of the model was that they sold different versions, gradually increasing in price. And if memory serves me right, only the top priced had alpha cuts, the most important part of a body. Especially since rigging of clothes was not totally stellar from other sellers. So, to have tattoo layers (the step under in price) and an alpha hud, you had to pay 10 000 L!

My memory is fuzzy (plus I don't shop for mens' bodies), so I did some asking around and digging.  According to Skell and the wayback machine,  Only the Men's L$10k body had the Alpha HUD, not the 5k version. 

Per the MeshBodyAddict's page (thanks, wayback machine)
"You need to buy the Deluxe body to get the Alpha HUD, and trust me, you’ll need that HUD. This body is built with it’s skeleton a bit ‘off’ from the system skeleton, so standard mesh pokes through the neck, arms and butt areas."

It's in the Dislikes section here.

Hope that helps. 😁

Edited January 7, 2022 by Catrie

[Rowan Amore]

15 minutes ago, Catrie said:

Only the Men's L$10k body had the Alpha HUD. 

The Deluxe TMP body was only 5000L.  The heads were the same price.

[LunaRavencroft]

Rather I have a male or female body, it always leads back to Legacy for me, now. As a creator, I have to make use of male and female avatars, to know what works for what, after all.

[Orion Pastorelli]

Thanks so much to everyone for your replies thus far!  I feel a lot more secure about my recommendation. As it stands, I have identified three primary criteria when recommending a male mesh body to a new user:

1. Price

2. Ease of Use

3. Third-Party Support

 

On 1/5/2022 at 1:18 PM, Echelon Alcott said:

One might argue that Legacy is superior compared to Jake, but my perception is that there are not enough benefits to justify the price difference between Legacy (L$5000) and Jake (L$1500).

That is my thinking as well. Someone who is new to SL and / or Mesh Bodies probably shouldn't invest that heavily at first.  I hope that Belleza decides to keep the Jake body at L$ 1,500. At that price point, it really does function as a great introduction to the landscape of mesh bodies for male avatars.

 

On 1/6/2022 at 6:41 AM, Maitimo said:

I would agree with recommending Jake right now. A third party hand AO is still required but with the body price so low it's still a bargain (and these days, most people have bento animations in their regular AO anyway). Even at full price, Jake is still L$1000 cheaper than Gianni and L$2000 cheaper than Legacy.

Agreed. To echo @Echelon Alcott The price point is primary reason I recommend it. And I am glad you brought up the point about the hands. Even after the v.3 update, there are still animation issues with the hands. I always stress that the Belleza Jake body HAS to be paired with either a Bento AO or a Bento Hand Animator.

 

18 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

i would never ever recommend the legacy aka tmp for their past. Do i forgive their greed? Yes, but won't get a dime from me anymore in al eternity.

It's a bit harder to choose between Gianni and Jake,  both have their pro and contra's. My choice is mostly based on the use of the hud, i like the Jake more and easier.
One of me also has the Geralt .. but never really sticked on me and also gave him Jake after the price change.

In my opinion, the history of "The Shops," the store behind the old "The Mesh Project" (TMP) mesh bodies and heads and the new "Legacy" mesh bodies, is often brought up without a lot of nuance.  I don't want to get to deep into it, because I think it's beyond the scope of this reply. To be brief, while I whole-heartedly agree with a lot of the criticism that The Shops get, there are important details that often get obscured by strong opinions.

To your second point, "Ease of Use," is so very important; specially for a new user. The new BOM version of the Belleza Jake body is so easy to use, you just throw it on, no need to activate BOM. In addition, the HUD is pretty straight forward as well.

 

10 hours ago, StarlanderGoods said:

Legacy Athletic, if you dont mind the price and a neck line, or the new Kario, wich is very similar in shape to the Legacy Athletic body and 1000 L$ cheaper.  And no, the Kario is not a bodybuilder body, if you use fit with a regular skin, it is pretty flexible.

Gianni has a lot of support, but it is a bit limited in how much you can edit it. If you are going for short and cute, Gianni is probably the best choice, I cant give my opinion on Belleza Jake, because I only demoed it for a bit.

I've personally never had any neck issues with the male Legacy bodies.

As for the new Kario body, I am unfamiliar with it. I do want to get the DEMO and see what it can do. At this point in time, however, I would not recommend it to new user because of its current lack of third-party support. But who knows, this may change in the future.