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Tama Suki
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Like so many other things, they’re fine if used in moderation... and even then, only if the gesture in question is very on point with what you want to say. Otherwise, and to communicate effectively on a variety of topics, you’d have to have a half billion of them active for an ample enough ’vocabulary’ (and even so it still feels like a conceited difficulty—like that Star Trek TNG episode where an alien race is only capable of talking convolutedly thru metaphors alluding to each & every single concept they want to express during an otherwise normal conversation). In point of fact, most gesturebators I’ve seen manage to both use an ungodly number of them (and not all that simple or direct, which makes it annoying to filter out all the noise that comes with each), and still restrict themselves to the few topics of conversation they happen to have a moderately relevant gesture for.

So no, I don’t use many, nor go to places like the typical clubs where it’s all a constant gesturefest exactly as strident yet devoid of substance as a politician’s speech.

Edited by Ren Toxx
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11 minutes ago, Ren Toxx said:

Like so many other things, they’re fine if used in moderation... and even then, only if the gesture in question is very on point with what you want to say. Otherwise, and to communicate effectively on a variety of topics, you’d have to have a half billion of them active for an ample enough ’vocabulary’ (and even so it still feels like a conceited difficulty—like that Star Trek TNG episode where an alien race is only capable of talking convolutedly thru metaphors alluding to each & every single concept they want to express during an otherwise normal conversation). In point of fact, most gesturebators I’ve seen manage to both use an ungodly number of them (and not all that simple or direct, which makes it annoying to filter out all the noise that comes with each), and still restrict themselves to the few topics of conversation they happen to have a moderately relevant gesture for.

So no, I don’t use many, nor go to places like the typical clubs where it’s all a constant gesturefest exactly as strident yet devoid of substance as a politician’s speech.

I just wanted to quote this to quote this: "as strident yet devoid of substance as a politician's speech" <----that's great. But I also find a large portion of gestures severely limiting in SL in terms of conveying nuance and tone. It could be, @Tama Sukithat I simply don't have as much experience or as broad a base of gestures to draw from as you do, but my own experience has been similar to Ren's

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5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The only gestures I find useful in any way for SL are APPLAUSE gestures for live performances.  Other than that, I find them somewhat childish and attention-seeking.  How about using words...that convey a message...like an adult.  

 

 

NO.jpg.7526e8a20124967e2114d6deb7588e30.jpg

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Isn’t there something new on the roadmap related to this? Camera based avatar expressiveness? Not sure if it will be a new form of gestures.I hope it means having everyone’s camera zooming into your avatar when you are making a gesture and then zooming back out once it’s done. Maybe even a separate window popping up and showing the avatar emoting.

I’ve seen this in games before and it helps bring your attention to the person making the gesture. Otherwise you’d never notice it because no one has their camera zoomed in on people all the time.

Of course, there should be an option to turn the feature off for those who don’t like it.

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4 hours ago, Tama Suki said:

I express myself mostly with gestures.
Don't you like gestures?
I'll use a gesture to apologize for using gestures.

I hate hate hate gestures! If you can't convey in actual words what you think about something, then I want nothing to do with you. The ONLY gesture I EVER use is applause at a live singer event. I find them childish and immature. End of discussion....

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I have about:
15 for different ways of greeting
10+ to thank
15/20 to laugh
20+ to express approval and as many to express disapproval and to express different shades of mood
4+ for AFK and 4+ for I'M BACK
8 different types of YAY
20+ for use in combat situations
10+ to express different shades of love and friendship
5 to express discomfort towards the LAG
8 for the BYE BYE
4 to announce the LOG OFF accompanied by two or three that I release immediately after and that I know will be listened to when I am now disconnected.
And more or less 20 of purely aesthetic use that acquire a profound contextual signifier depending on the context. precisely. Immersive sounds certainly accompanied by the significant movement of the body that fade from fart to the gentle sound of celestial bells. Of course, all gestures can be significantly used in different contexts making them acquire different signifiers.
All these are well cataloged and believe it or not I remember them all instinctively and use them with a quick "gesture" of the finger on the keyboard.
In Second Life I was born in a Japanese sim. Maybe I was lucky to have this cultural imprinting that developed in me.
[[[for the record @BranScanlon age and experience in Second Life is measured in this way. The gestures are acquired over the years and become a language only after having been experimented in many different situations interpolated with many different people, they perfectly represent the acquisition of experience, perhaps they are the best telltale sign]]]

Edit:

However, I never use terribly vulgar or too loud gestures.
Those can only be useful in combat but still I consider them noob stuff of very little value.

Edited by Tama Suki
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I'm sure there can be situations in which gestures come in handy, but in the year I've spent in SL I've only ever seen them used obnoxiously or spammed at clubs. I wouldn't mind them on their own if they were text/animation based (and the text was non-spammy) because those are basically just emotes that can be found in almost any game now :P but the majority of gestures I've seen in the wild are really spammy texts in local chat, or super obnoxious loud sounds.

Which, to me personally, there's a time and place for everything. If you're goofing off with friends and just being silly, then sure use all the meme sounds, farts, and creepy laughs. But if you're out in public around other people and using them? It feels similar to when you see adults being loud and obnoxious IRL in public, disrupting the peace and embarrassing themselves, probably being filmed to post on YouTube so we can all cringe.

As long as you aren't running around spamming fart noises at shopping malls or when people are trying to have actual conversation, then sure have fun. But it's kind of immature and annoying to use them outside of goofing off with your friends, in my opinion.

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43 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Isn’t there something new on the roadmap related to this? Camera based avatar expressiveness? Not sure if it will be a new form of gestures.I hope it means having everyone’s camera zooming into your avatar when you are making a gesture and then zooming back out once it’s done. Maybe even a separate window popping up and showing the avatar emoting.

I’ve seen this in games before and it helps bring your attention to the person making the gesture. Otherwise you’d never notice it because no one has their camera zoomed in on people all the time.

Of course, there should be an option to turn the feature off for those who don’t like it.

I look at reality in SL from at least three meters away, from myself and from others. I rarely place my camera in the face of an avatar I do it sometimes to observe the craftsmanship from which it came out.
I think this is a very common experience.
I don't quite understand what you are talking about then. However it is a very interesting thing.

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2 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

The only gestures I find useful in any way for SL are APPLAUSE gestures for live performances.  Other than that, I find them somewhat childish and attention-seeking.  How about using words...that convey a message...like an adult.  

 

 

But be obsessed with the whole marketing apparatus regarding the appearance of your avatar.
Don't you think that the school of gestures can have equal dignity?

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45 minutes ago, Tama Suki said:

[... long list...]
4 to announce the LOG OFF accompanied by two or three that I release immediately after and that I know will be listened to when I am now disconnected.
[... long list...]

Airport.jpg.5789680e5c64a8223036dcaa342a5674.jpg

Sorry, couldn’t resist.

 

Seriously though, Tama, think about it: in here you use normal words and, as far as I can (or prefer to) see, they’re not pre-written, then copy-pasted phrases. It’d be exceedingly difficult to put together thoughts that way—again, without a lot of ‘noise’ from things that weren’t actually germane to the topic.

Even the (relative) timesaving of using pre-recorded anything instead of writing it manually, is offset by this... having to concatenate half-relevant snippets of expression, to end up conveying your exact thoughts. I believe I honestly end up writing a single line of chat much faster than I would finding ten gestures that, put together, sort of ‘give the gist’ of it.

 

Not to mention, it just makes it easier for others to understand you. We all speak the same language and, taking in stride what you said about experience in SL, actual normal text happens to be equally understandable to new players. I see no reason to exclude them from the conversation; quite the contrary, I’d rather make it especially easy for them 😉

Edited by Ren Toxx
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18 minutes ago, Ren Toxx said:

Airport.jpg.5789680e5c64a8223036dcaa342a5674.jpg

Sorry, couldn’t resist.

 

Seriously though, Tama, think about it: in here you use normal words and, as far as I can (or prefer to) see, they’re not pre-written, then copy-pasted phrases. It’d be exceedingly difficult to put together thoughts that way—again, without a lot of ‘noise’ from things that weren’t actually germane to the topic.

Even the (relative) timesaving of using pre-recorded anything instead of writing it manually, is offset by this... having to concatenate half-relevant snippets of expression, to end up conveying your exact thoughts. I believe I honestly end up writing a single line of chat much faster than I would finding ten gestures that, put together, sort of ‘give the gist’ of it.

 

Not to mention, it just makes it easier for others to understand you. We all speak the same language and, taking in stride what you said about experience in SL, actual normal text happens to be equally understandable to new players. I see no reason to exclude them from the conversation; quite the contrary, I’d rather make it especially easy for them 😉

 

Schermata 2021-12-31 alle 17.50.42.png

Edited by Tama Suki
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I could "quote reply" the exquisitely erudite @Ren Toxx again (and seriously "concatenate" WHAT a word) but that will get annoying I'm sure so I just want to say some of the following springs from some of the ideas she's raised, and any other questions and statements below are purely my own fault.

@Tama Suki - I want to keep following this along in a good faith argument, if possible. Because there is quite a bit of merit to what you're saying in terms of the manufacturing of language. It does not need to be exceptionally complex (and you've shown a remarkable list of gestures at your disposal) it does not need to contain all the shadings of emotion and vibrance that we come to expect of a language qua language.

But it DOES need to perform one essential function. It needs to communicate. Every language set (Or well, every human interaction to be fair) requires two parts - a sender and a receiver. Communication breaks down when one or the other cannot grasp the message being conveyed.

So now I need to ask the meta question - what are you trying to say by not saying? What is the message you would like to convey in it? That communication is possible without the need for verbiage? That pastiche can become the new form of dialogue?

Because I feel there is something here meta that you are wanting to say. I'd love to know your thoughts on it.

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18 minutes ago, BranScanlon said:

I could "quote reply" the exquisitely erudite @Ren Toxx again (and seriously "concatenate" WHAT a word) but that will get annoying I'm sure so I just want to say some of the following springs from some of the ideas she's raised, and any other questions and statements below are purely my own fault.

@Tama Suki - I want to keep following this along in a good faith argument, if possible. Because there is quite a bit of merit to what you're saying in terms of the manufacturing of language. It does not need to be exceptionally complex (and you've shown a remarkable list of gestures at your disposal) it does not need to contain all the shadings of emotion and vibrance that we come to expect of a language qua language.

But it DOES need to perform one essential function. It needs to communicate. Every language set (Or well, every human interaction to be fair) requires two parts - a sender and a receiver. Communication breaks down when one or the other cannot grasp the message being conveyed.

So now I need to ask the meta question - what are you trying to say by not saying? What is the message you would like to convey in it? That communication is possible without the need for verbiage? That pastiche can become the new form of dialogue?

Because I feel there is something here meta that you are wanting to say. I'd love to know your thoughts on it.

My dear friend.
To our great misfortune we have been used to perceiving the world as a small courtyard and instead it is immensely larger than what we have been taught.
Language is also very defective in our mother tongue, whatever language it is.
I consider Second Life an opportunity to express my feelings without necessarily having to comply with imposed rules.
There is a certain form of rudimentary freedom that I admire a lot here.
Without wanting to offend I am not very interested in what many authoritative accounts here write.
I walk my way.

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9 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

next to "hey, sex now" the fastest way to get on my, and quite some others, mute list.

Thanks for the usual effective and original contribution.
I would just like to ask not to put it personally and to intervene only in a profitable way for everyone.
It has happened recently that many highly authoritative contributions have been deleted as irrelevant.
I wouldn't want anyone to think that I report. Never made a single one in my life on this forum as some think.

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1 minute ago, Tama Suki said:

My dear friend.
To our great misfortune we have been used to perceiving the world as a small courtyard and instead it is immensely larger than what we have been taught.
Language is also very defective in our mother tongue, whatever language it is.
I consider Second Life an opportunity to express my feelings without necessarily having to comply with imposed rules.
There is a certain form of rudimentary freedom that I admire a lot here.
Without wanting to offend I am not very interested in what many authoritative accounts here write.
I walk my way.

Gorgeous. I think I understand now. Thank you for the honest response. I have to admire a de-constructuralist view of semiotics even when I personally don't agree with them philosophically, and so I completely appreciate the way you walk. There will always be problems when your aesthetics and worldview bump up against another, but I'm sure that by now you are aware of those issues.

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20 minutes ago, BranScanlon said:

Gorgeous. I think I understand now. Thank you for the honest response. I have to admire a de-constructuralist view of semiotics even when I personally don't agree with them philosophically, and so I completely appreciate the way you walk. There will always be problems when your aesthetics and worldview bump up against another, but I'm sure that by now you are aware of those issues.

I believe that the kind of issues I have encountered so far are irrelevant because in the context in which we find ourselves at this moment they can only be referred to the selfishness of some who unfortunately are educated to live in a very limited bubble of awareness.
Of course it goes without saying that I am not referring to you.

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28 minutes ago, Tama Suki said:

Thanks for the usual effective and original contribution.
I would just like to ask not to put it personally and to intervene only in a profitable way for everyone.
It has happened recently that many highly authoritative contributions have been deleted as irrelevant.
I wouldn't want anyone to think that I report. Never made a single one in my life on this forum as some think.

You post on a forum, if you don't like responses that don't fit in your way of thinking, isn't my problem. Get used to it, there's nothing wrong with my reply.

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2 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

You post on a forum, if you don't like responses that don't fit in your way of thinking, isn't my problem. Get used to it, there's nothing wrong with my reply.

According to the rules of this forum, personal disputes should be resolved in a private chat if possible. It is not profitable for anyone to pollute posts with negative attitudes.
I would kindly ask you to desist.
I would also consider this as an opportunity to meet inworld and exchange our views in a sandbox leaving this space free from intoxication and poor quality content.

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