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Does gender matter?


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Just now, Maitimo said:

If the preferences of those people are "Your avatar's gender must match your RL gender" then I simply find different people to hang out with.

Right. Sometimes "respecting their prefences" means mute and move on, and you'll both be happier that way.

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A long time ago I met an avatar who owned one of those very interesting sandboxes where many creatives get together and share their experiments.
He told me it doesn't matter what you look like in SL.
But he also told me that according to him the way you behave in SL must be pretty much the same way you behave in RL.
Of course in real life I would never start screaming gestures or dressing up as a woman (I'm a man in RL) and walking around quietly (also because it wouldn't be a good show for others unless I shave and lose 2 hours to put on make-up first to leave the house).
However, I think you can't go beyond the fact of representing yourself here, even if you play a role-playing character.

Edited by Tama Suki
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On 12/20/2021 at 6:30 PM, Tama Suki said:

Do you think it is right to always represent yourself to everyone as a woman even if you are not in reality?

Of course. You can present your avatar however you wish. However, there's a caveat, while it doesn't matter to me, or to most people who have responded here, I find that inworld, to a great many residents (especially those who are relatively new to SL) it does matter a great deal. I have two female alts, and these days I tend to spend more time on them than I do on my main account and nearly everyone they meet (well, every male at least) demands to know whether I'm female in RL.   

However in your case, as your avatar is also non-human, that's not going to be such a big deal.

 

On 12/21/2021 at 3:46 AM, Jessicathenobody said:

For me, since it does include getting eyeballed by guys, I find being a girl with 'extra' to be the best compromise between presentation, and folks getting all up in my RL and butthurt about it.

My two girls are also "girls with extra" (or at least they would be if they ever went anywhere to display it). Not for the same reason as you though; in my case it's because in RL I am a trans man (female to male transgender) and the idea of having female parts between the legs, even in a virtual world, feels completely wrong for me, and is more dysphoria than I'm willing to deal with.

 

On 12/21/2021 at 4:01 AM, Jordan Whitt said:

But I have also had many positive experiences too, because some people were honest and straight up with me...and I didn't care less!

So to me, it does matter, because I deserve to know who I am letting into my SLife.  My feelings and friendship is not a joke.

See, that's the difference - it's not their actual gender than bothers you, it's the secrecy about it. And that's very understandable. 

 

On 12/21/2021 at 3:58 PM, davidventer said:

I'll copy/paste here what I've put in my profile picks related to role-play...

In Second Life, I treat you as if you ARE your avatar. That's kind of the point here, isn't it? If you present as a certain age/gender/species/whatever that's different from your real life; guess what - this isn't real life, I'm not physically interacting with the REAL you, I'm interacting with your AVATAR in a virtual space, and I treat you according to your avatar's appearance and persona. 

^^THIS. I have a note on my profile to say that I do exactly that.  It makes no difference to me what a person looks like in RL. In SL I am interacting with their avatar's appearance and, to a greater degree, their personality. Two of my oldest and dearest friends in SL have avatars whose gender does not match their RL gender and I treat them exactly as if it did.

The only thing I will say in slight disagreement is that RL age often does become significant for me. The generation gap is real and I'm on the cusp between Gen X and the Boomer generation. So the language spoken by Generation Z, while it may look like English, is often full of slang and pop-culture references that are unintelligible to me. (Millennials are cool though - I raised one after all).  So while I don't care what gender a person is in RL, and I don't even care if they want to keep their RL gender a secret from me for ever, I do appreciate honesty about their age/generation.

 

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On 12/21/2021 at 7:58 AM, davidventer said:

I'll copy/paste here what I've put in my profile picks related to role-play...

In Second Life, I treat you as if you ARE your avatar. That's kind of the point here, isn't it? If you present as a certain age/gender/species/whatever that's different from your real life; guess what - this isn't real life, I'm not physically interacting with the REAL you, I'm interacting with your AVATAR in a virtual space, and I treat you according to your avatar's appearance and persona. That said, my avatar literally looks like the real me and I'm using my real name. But that's just me, and I'm doing so for reasons related to using SL as a tool to build self-confidence - seeing "me" in this world, and being able to do things here that I struggle with in Real Life (like social interactions, etc.) is kind of therapeutic, for me, but not something I expect nor assume from anyone else. We all "play" Second Life in our own way that makes us happy and comfortable. If you're an old lady in Real Life and you present as a hot twink in SL, or vice versa, that's cool. Do what makes you happy, and I'll treat you according to how you represent. 

 

I am not my avatar. My avatar is me.

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An SL girlfriend asked me once which account and more specifically avatar and outfit that i used was me.. I blocked her.

giphy-downsized.gif

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3 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

I am not my avatar. My avatar is me.

There is always a psychological mechanism in operation which I believe is called transfert from which one cannot escape.
I, in a sense, have a kind of strange tender affection for my avatar, a kind of feeling that if I felt for myself in real life I would be directly ready to be tied hand and foot and sent to a mental hospital.
When you look at yourself in the mirror in reality you don't pay too much attention to yourself unless you are practicing playing a role in a play. Here, let's say that more or less I believe that the relationship you have with your avatar in SL can be established in this way.
In your avatar you see more than anything else your best potential and that in some way you consider most useful, it is the projection of a part of yourself somehow filtered and disconnected from your real lived present.

Maybe we can call it freedom, i don't know.

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44 minutes ago, Tama Suki said:

There is always a psychological mechanism in operation which I believe is called transfert from which one cannot escape.
I, in a sense, have a kind of strange tender affection for my avatar, a kind of feeling that if I felt for myself in real life I would be directly ready to be tied hand and foot and sent to a mental hospital.
When you look at yourself in the mirror in reality you don't pay too much attention to yourself unless you are practicing playing a role in a play. Here, let's say that more or less I believe that the relationship you have with your avatar in SL can be established in this way.
In your avatar you see more than anything else your best potential and that in some way you consider most useful, it is the projection of a part of yourself somehow filtered and disconnected from your real lived present.

Maybe we can call it freedom, i don't know.

What I said went completely over your head.

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Sorry i missed the thread.

I 100% agree with @davidventer

I mean i never played roleplay and i think i never will do.

But from what I understand he simply says that everyone can live their SL as they want as long as they respect others.
And if one wants to use SL as a personal growth tool, so be it!
I decided to put a piece of my life on my profile here and I decided to dedicate myself body and soul to my inworld art perhaps because in my real life I didn't have the chance to be what I wanted to be. Maybe I can start over from here.

Edited by Tama Suki
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   Nice topic, though I do believe it has been asked before in a variety of ways, though a good topic none the less. The way I see it, it comes down to this. In RL gender does matter, but in SL it doesn't... unless you want it to. As I have said many times before, I am a guy in RL, and as I have yet to be able to wrap my head at "identifying" as anything but a male, Bjor is basically who I am... though a FAR better looking version of me then what I look like in RL lol.
   He's sorta like my reference for my "digital self" as was mentioned in the Matrix movies. However, as I LOVE collecting avatars, if one takes the time to see some of the one's I have either put together or bought outright in the avatar picture posts, one can very easily see that I gravitate more towards unique, unusual avatars myself. Heck I have my humanoid dragon man, mech wolf, Cosmic eternity, Ghost Rider (in both bike & flaming horse form's), and even Towelie avatars, but despite all of that I am still Bjor at heart. And don't get me started on my actual Dragon & Godzilla avatars lol.
   But here's the thing... while I am very open about being a guy (even in my profile), some are not as comfortable with it as in SL one can be whomever, and whatever you want... even a flying toaster. And that's ok! This is a place for creativity, and being expressive on one's style and creations after all. What can change things (at least in my mind) is one's "emotional involvement & investment" with another person. If it increases beyond past a certain "casual" point, then one should at least want to let the other person know more about their RL selves (even gender wise).
   But that is always determined by the people involved, and not for anyone else to judge I would hopefully think. Oh and for the record Tama, while I respect your views greatly (and cool posts you've created so far that I have seen as of yet), I can tell you for a fact that RL & SL does in fact blend on a emotional and even relationship level sometimes. I have seen people fall in real love in SL, and have even been to two SL marriages back in the day (one of which was duplicated by the people in question in RL). Not sure if you inferred at some point here that they can't or shouldn't (as I can be a bonehead at times lol), but I just wanted to point it out. :)

Peace...

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15 hours ago, BjorJlen said:

   Nice topic, though I do believe it has been asked before in a variety of ways, though a good topic none the less. The way I see it, it comes down to this. In RL gender does matter, but in SL it doesn't... unless you want it to. As I have said many times before, I am a guy in RL, and as I have yet to be able to wrap my head at "identifying" as anything but a male, Bjor is basically who I am... though a FAR better looking version of me then what I look like in RL lol.
   He's sorta like my reference for my "digital self" as was mentioned in the Matrix movies. However, as I LOVE collecting avatars, if one takes the time to see some of the one's I have either put together or bought outright in the avatar picture posts, one can very easily see that I gravitate more towards unique, unusual avatars myself. Heck I have my humanoid dragon man, mech wolf, Cosmic eternity, Ghost Rider (in both bike & flaming horse form's), and even Towelie avatars, but despite all of that I am still Bjor at heart. And don't get me started on my actual Dragon & Godzilla avatars lol.
   But here's the thing... while I am very open about being a guy (even in my profile), some are not as comfortable with it as in SL one can be whomever, and whatever you want... even a flying toaster. And that's ok! This is a place for creativity, and being expressive on one's style and creations after all. What can change things (at least in my mind) is one's "emotional involvement & investment" with another person. If it increases beyond past a certain "casual" point, then one should at least want to let the other person know more about their RL selves (even gender wise).
   But that is always determined by the people involved, and not for anyone else to judge I would hopefully think. Oh and for the record Tama, while I respect your views greatly (and cool posts you've created so far that I have seen as of yet), I can tell you for a fact that RL & SL does in fact blend on a emotional and even relationship level sometimes. I have seen people fall in real love in SL, and have even been to two SL marriages back in the day (one of which was duplicated by the people in question in RL). Not sure if you inferred at some point here that they can't or shouldn't (as I can be a bonehead at times lol), but I just wanted to point it out. :)

Peace...

My friend I have said several times in other posts that I consider SL a place where everyone is free to express their identity as they like as long as they respect that of others.
I recently swicthed for a male form as well to try to be more like reality.
The fact is that I really find the shape of my avatar awkward when it looks like a man. Seeing him as a woman, on the other hand, probably relaxes me. But it's not so much the shape as the grace of the movements (I'm wearing Oracul AO).
So I'm back to being a graceful combat cyborg ninja woman. 😄

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gender is matter

for friendship, because there something what we said ladies talk.

falling in love with someone you dont see (only see avatar pixels), its not make sense from my perspective

 

atleast  you do chat in cam  and build trust. first. and it takes years

IMO

Edited by Kalegthepsionicist
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On 20.12.2021 at 21:30, Tama Suki said:

Kıyafetlerimi asla çok sık değiştirmem.
Avatarımı yıllardır giyiyorum, arada bir bir şeyler ekliyorum ve arada bir bir şeyleri değiştiriyorum ama her zaman bir dişi-siborg-android-savaş-ninjası olarak kalıyorum.
Ama bugün, gerçekten hiç dikkat etmediğim önemli bir şeyi düşünüyordum.
Ben her zaman bir kadın avatarı giyerim.
Aslında ben gerçek hayatta katı bir adamım.
Seks ve pornografi hakkında hiçbir şeyden hoşlanmıyorum ve bu ufukta hiçbir şey aramadım. Elbette bu tür şeylerle şakacı bir şekilde ilgilenen hiç kimseyi kınamıyorum. Herkes istediğini yapabilir ve benim kişiliğime saygılı biriysen ve o manzarayı suratıma fırlatmazsan, özelde dokunaçlarla, tuhaf şeylerle eğlensen de kolayca arkadaşım olabilirsin.
Kadın avatarı giymeyi neden sevdiğimden emin değilim.
Belki de kadınları estetik olarak erkeklerden çok daha güzel bulduğum için sadece fiziksel olarak değil, her şeyden önce hareketlerindeki zarafet için.
Ama merak ediyordum:
Gerçekte olmasanız bile kendinizi her zaman bir kadın olarak herkese tanıtmanın doğru olduğunu düşünüyor musunuz?

Women are somewhat more complex and artistic creatures by nature. We women are always a little more detailed than men."Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" Women are creatures of soft nature, always a little more affectionate, kinder and a little more emotional charged than men 🙂 The female body really seems artistic to me, and I am very happy to be a woman.and as for your question, this is a virtual world and we're free to be whatever you want here (respectfully, and without humiliating anyone)Who can blame you for what you love being here? this is a free world, free of restrictions 🙂

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On 12/28/2021 at 2:19 AM, Kalegthepsionicist said:

gender is matter

for friendship, because there something what we said ladies talk.

falling in love with someone you dont see (only see avatar pixels), its not make sense from my perspective

 

atleast  you do chat in cam  and build trust. first. and it takes years

IMO

First of all gender is not matter, gender is a social construct.

To the part about how impossible it is to fall in love with pixels, people have been falling in love over correspondence, sending letters, way before even electricity existed, just because you are unable to do it, doesnt make it a matter of sense.

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11 minutes ago, StarlanderGoods said:

First of all gender is not matter, gender is a social construct.

FWIW money is also a social construct, and it matters a lot to a lot of people.

You can touch and feel physical manifestations of money, touching and feeling physical manifestations of gender though. . .

Consent first.

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   Actually, to expand a bit on what you said @StarlanderGoods, which I believe I mentioned before, there is a actual 2013 movie called Her which involved a man falling in love with a AI. So this concept, as you mentioned, has been known threw out history for ages, even though only now has any sort of Pixels or AI (as far the movie went) existed. Oh and please don't hit Kalegthepsionicist too much, as I do believe that English is not his first language. :)

Peace...

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52 minutes ago, StarlanderGoods said:

First of all gender is not matter, gender is a social construct.

To the part about how impossible it is to fall in love with pixels, people have been falling in love over correspondence, sending letters, way before even electricity existed, just because you are unable to do it, doesnt make it a matter of sense.

Thanks so much for putting this up in the thread. I had to find an actual keyboard in order to respond. So many words!

To respond to the "how does one fall in love with pixels" question @Kalegthepsionicist, and coming from experience:

The first major relationship of my adult life (long term commitment, moving in together plans, potential immigration etc.) started on a Yahoo chat room in the Year of Our LoLs 2001 or thereabouts. Years before SL even existed. Back in my day, we didn't even have pixels to look at. You lived and breathed romance in Courier 12pt font and that was that. (Imagine! Not even a person's handwriting as they would have in the older days. Or a sachet of perfume).

And it STILL happened. Believe it or not. You could still fall in love with someone, and they for you, because of who they revealed themselves to be. And, I mean, I guess vice versa. Which touches back on part of the original through line of this post, I think, about the importance of gender and relationships.

With only the words of your given language at your disposal - how do you form bonds? Can those bonds become romantic even if they, for the individual in real life perhaps would be beyond where and how they set their typical relationship boundaries? Does that require a re-negotiation of those boundaries under certain circumstances? And which is more important - the relationship or the boundary?

I have definitely had to redefine those things for myself at least once. And certainly at least once here. Because I felt strongly attracted to the voice who was speaking, regardless of the vessel they spoke from. It's a little bit earthshattering and a little bit scary and really interesting when that happens.

But - and this is to circle all the way back to the original part of this thread - I don't know if it's an axiom or not, but a good relationship (romantic or friendship) hinges 100% on trust. We trust a person to be who they tell us they are. Sometimes, that's a bit of a wash (i.e. a person THINKS you are something, and never asks or checks that assumption, and becomes upset if you reveal it to them on the pure basis of being honest and truthful) And yes, sometimes the biases of gender normativity (and I don't even know if I'm using that properly) are too much for some people to overcome. But a part of the hurt that comes from saying one is one thing (overtly and explicitly, not in the "I use a female avatar" way) and then later saying what you said earlier is untrue comes from a fracture of the trust between you and the other. You said a thing to me under a banner of trust. I accepted it as such, and only now find it untrue. It's sometimes more this than something else that can cause problems. (The gender thing that's...that's a longer longer post I think, and one beyond my own limited personal experience.)

Edited by BranScanlon
and by "here" I mean here in SL, not here in the forums here. Obviously.
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8 minutes ago, BranScanlon said:

The first major relationship of my adult life (long term commitment, moving in together plans, potential immigration etc.) started on a Yahoo chat room in the Year of Our LoLs 2001 or thereabouts.

Nice, so did you guys eventually met and moved in together?

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Just now, Nick0678 said:

Nice, so did you guys eventually met and moved in together?

No, actually. I had a bad habit in my youth of recognizing potential relationship problems, and then willfully ignoring them until they blew up in my face. This was one of those times. Lesson learned - your gut knows things. If it tells you you're hungry, you feed it. If it tells you you're thirsty you get some water. If it tells you someone perhaps has a violent temper? You need to steer clear.

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1 minute ago, BranScanlon said:

No, actually.

Sounds familiar...

Thanks for answering,

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