Future 'Feature' Request: Linden Shops (Commercial Addition to Linden Home Continent/Regions)

[Prokofy Neva]

On 11/26/2021 at 4:33 PM, Polenth Yue said:

My experience of malls is they don't usually earn enough to pay the rent. That's why malls end up empty. People would stay if they actually made money.

Mall-style events work better. There was one of those run on the fairgrounds, which was run by the moles and free to sign up. But the main focus seems to be the shop & hop events.

I haven't found that at all with malls lately, especially after the gatcha ban, because people need to resell goods or make amateur items they can sell to friends and fans. To be sure, the move to the Marketplace helped kill off malls; large merchant events killed them off even more thoroughly; the increase in cashout fees and the gatchapocalypse forced some merchants to shorten sails and cut costs,  and dump inworld stores or malls, and all of this would seem to be the death knell for malls. At one time I had something like 4 malls and 4 boardwalks; today I only have 2 malls, one free Flea Market and one boardwalk. 

But interestingly, they stay fairly full because there is indeed a niche for people who are not going to get into the big merchant events, either because their skill and quality isn't top notch or they don't know the right people or they don't have the thousands of dollars in booth fees. And so they need a store inworld to add to their MP store. People actually like to walk around malls and socialize as well. Malls can be done tastefully as hangouts with cafes and such and need not be avatar traps.

Every day, something I've made sells in my malls, and I'm certainly at the amateur end of the creator spectrum. And my long term tenants are still in these venues because they make sales. It's more common than you think. Sure, you fly around the Mainland and see these completely empty malls. I wonder at some of them that sit there for years, and wonder if the business is in fact "mall prototyping" or "building malls for other clients" because they tier them year after year, it's wild.

What's hilarious is that all the cool kids say "malls are dead," yet every Saturday and Sunday they FLOCK to 30L and 60L sales, often on sims where there is a cluster of 3 or 6 or more stores all lined up, yet this isn't a "mall". This is just top boutique creators clustering, right? No malls here! 

I also see busy little malls in the hinterlands where people sell breedables and DFS and all the other popular and cheap stuff and that's what makes SL work. They hold scheduled live auctions which is a form of income generation and socializing.

If it were all the Renaissance Faire where we peasants had to go and gawk at the wares of the skilled craftsmen and hope to buy some of their stuff with our few kopecks, SL would not last. What makes it work is that there are a lot of places to enter the economy and cover the costs of SL which can be prohibitive. There are more places than ever given the ability to resell breedables, gatchas, and used items on transfer. This part of the economy is something the forums regs scorn and they disdain what they view as low quality and denounce gatcha makers as "carnies". They just fail to see that these strata of the economy are vital to make the world work. Otherwise people drift away.

We all know of the phenomenon of vendors lined up in Belli houses, some of them appearing and disappearing quickly so they can't be caught, selling things like DJ streams or clothing lines. There will only be more of this and that's why the Lindens should "legalize" it and make shopping areas. They can make the leases rotate so that more people have a shot at what may be a high traffic area. Of course the Lindens probably say "But we have Shop 'n Hop and that's enough." That's only for top designers. There is a role for second and third tier malls and events.

 

[Evangeline Arcadia]

On 11/30/2021 at 6:16 AM, Rabid Cheetah said:

So we've already got LH shops.  Fun places that stay in theme, pretending to sell stuff, for a low density commercial feel without actual commercialization of Beautiful Belli.

Is there an up-to-date list anywhere of all the resident run shops/galleries/cafes etc. in Bellisseria?

I'm in two minds about this whole commercial idea. Both positive and negative sides of it have been posted by others already. I don't think it's easy to implement. It could be fun to have periodic pop-up shop events at Millibank.

Something I think would have been fun to see was little faux shops dotted around the themes, perhaps that dispense Linden owned stuff like content creation packs, premium gifts or other free Linden things (maybe seasonal goodies). Maybe a corner shop, or small post office type build. There are plenty of small hangout spots across Belli that could have been used for that, and still remain a hangout spot if chairs etc. are provided . It needn't be a home sized building, it could be smaller or a small stall or something similar. I think it would add to the realism of the existing home regions.

Maybe in 10 years time with the next generation of homes we'll see that...:)

 

 

[Chloe Bunny]

On 11/29/2021 at 9:33 PM, Patch Linden said:

Victorian homes that lend themselves to having 1st floor stores or shops and the living quarters on the 2nd or 3rd floors. 

Exactly what I have set up elsewhere and would be very welcomed if and when! 

[davidventer]

9 hours ago, Evangeline Arcadia said:

Is there an up-to-date list anywhere of all the resident run shops/galleries/cafes etc. in Bellisseria?

If there are any that actually sell stuff for profit, they’re “illegal” because the covenant does not allow commercial activity. Even donation/tip jars are apparently frowned upon. 

Edited December 4, 2021 by davidventer

[Evangeline Arcadia]

2 minutes ago, davidventer said:

If there are any that actually sell stuff for profit, they’re “illegal” because the covenant does not allow commercial activity. Even donation/tip jars are apparently frowned upon. 

Yep, I'm aware of that thanks..we were talking about those that don't.....

[Kathlen Onyx]

On 12/1/2021 at 10:25 AM, davidventer said:

Y’all getting mad over something the Lindens already decided NOT to do. It was considered for the Victorian style homes but they didn’t do it, did they? Calm down lol. I wouldn’t want to live above a store either but having stores nearby and in theme would be awesome and would feel way more realistic, like a real neighborhood. 

Actually Patch didn't say they are not doing it, just that it's on the back burner so it is a valid topic to discuss. So...calm down.

[Rabid Cheetah]

18 hours ago, Evangeline Arcadia said:

Is there an up-to-date list anywhere of all the resident run shops/galleries/cafes etc. in Bellisseria?

Not that I know of off hand, but I'm sure some folks who keep track of t hat sort of stuff have unofficial lists.

[davidventer]

10 hours ago, Evangeline Arcadia said:

Yep, I'm aware of that thanks..we were talking about those that don't.....

Some are listed here: https://lastditch.typepad.com/bbbgazette/the-bbb-online-travel-guide.html

[Evangeline Arcadia]

1 hour ago, davidventer said:

Some are listed here: https://lastditch.typepad.com/bbbgazette/the-bbb-online-travel-guide.html

I'd forgotten there were some in the Gazette - thanks!:)

[Jolly Nova]

I love the idea.

However, getting shop owners to follow rules and themes is an entirely different and agonizing can of worms.

There would also have to be daily checks, if not hourly especially when new shops are filled to ensure that they are within the ToS and Covenant. Which means, more Linden Labs Staff or stretch some Moles and current staff a bit thin. 

I think there would probably need to be an application to have a shop, that makes them agree to the ToS and Covenant, that someone looks at and reviews, and looks at the creator's shop to ensure that the content will be within something that is acceptable for Bellisseria. For example, they probably wouldn't want Sensations or Vaw because lewd. (Which loops us back to more staff or stretching staff)

Limited time shops, like events... again... back to micro-managing creators and if it's only for a week, many won't want to do it. They get slammed with trying to make new things, update items, participate in sales, different events, have their own events, and... welp they're already extremely busy.

(Not all creators defy all the rules in the universe, it's just occasionally hard to work with some. There's a lot of really fabulous creators who bend over backwards for the venues that host them and their customers.)

If there were a shop region added here and there in the middle of the themes, they'd have to yeet existing regions for it. 

Would the creators need to get approval for adding new things to their shop? Would clothing be allowed? Clothing is risky stuff, especially since a lot of ads show a lot of skin. Would all the landscaping shops need approval for selling landscaping in particular themed areas? Would items being sold need to specifically fit the LL Home themes or just as long as they don't violate ToS? 

So many questions, so many things to consider for something like this to actually happen. I can only imagine the absolute headache this could be for LL. The only possibility I see this happening is when all the new themes are released, and maybe there will be some Moles to spare to manage all the chaos.

 

[davidventer]

23 minutes ago, Jolly Nova said:

However, getting shop owners to follow rules and themes is an entirely different and agonizing can of worms.

There would also have to be daily checks, if not hourly especially when new shops are filled to ensure that they are within the ToS and Covenant. Which means, more Linden Labs Staff or stretch some Moles and current staff a bit thin. 

People seem to abide by the rules just fine when it comes to Linden Homes, and also shops on Private Regions with strict covenants. How would this be any different or need more policing than that? This wouldn't be the messy mainland. The mainland doesn't have a structure, a theme, nor a covenant, that's why it's so messy - No rules to abide by other than SL's basic TOS.

But with Linden Shops there should be a Covenant with rules in place as with Linden Homes. People seem to stick by the rules. Why would they suddenly not when it comes to commercial spaces? What's the difference really?  

23 minutes ago, Jolly Nova said:

I can only imagine the absolute headache this could be for LL.

I guess you're thinking it'll become like the messy mainland? Big difference. The mainland doesn't have a covenant. Give people more credit. People are fully capable of abiding by covenant regulations. Linden Homes prove that. Are Linden homes a messy nightmare for LL? Do people create eyesores and place things out of theme everywhere? No. This would be no different than that other than the ability to sell things, display the land in search, and create classifieds from it. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by davidventer

[Jolly Nova]

4 hours ago, davidventer said:

People seem to abide by the rules just fine when it comes to Linden Homes, and also shops on Private Regions with strict covenants. How would this be any different or need more policing than that? This wouldn't be the messy mainland. The mainland doesn't have a structure, a theme, nor a covenant, that's why it's so messy - No rules to abide by other than SL's basic TOS.

But with Linden Shops there should be a Covenant with rules in place as with Linden Homes. People seem to stick by the rules. Why would they suddenly not when it comes to commercial spaces? What's the difference really?  

I guess you're thinking it'll become like the messy mainland? Big difference. The mainland doesn't have a covenant. Give people more credit. People are fully capable of abiding by covenant regulations. Linden Homes prove that. Are Linden homes a messy nightmare for LL? Do people create eyesores and place things out of theme everywhere? No. This would be no different than that other than the ability to sell things, display the land in search, and create classifieds from it. 

In my exploration of Bellisseria, people do not follow the rules, especially with orbs, breedables, platforms and walls. What helps police that is the residents who care about what their neighborhood looks like and AR's it. But would a resident report their favorite creator for violating the covenant? Probably not. I've had the pleasure of working with many creators for events. A handful understand and happily comply to rules of the event, most grumble about some of the rules but comply... and then you have the other handful that thinks any event would be so lucky as to have them and everyone should worship the ground they walk on and rules simply don't apply to them.

There would also need to be a new covenant specifically for commercial regions since currently, you cannot have a shop that exchanges goods for Linden dollars. 

It wouldn't become mainland. However there would HAVE to be strict policing of the commercial regions. There's a lot of things that are "gray" areas of the ToS that could end up in the shops, and not everyone seems to know what Moderate means. 

Also, if a shop sells things that go outside... if they aren't in the theme of the area they're in... wouldn't that make the area ugly? Their products would get constantly AR'ed and then no one would buy from them. That being said, what goes IN the shops would need to match the theme of the area.

I just don't see Moles or Lindens having the time to do all those things, their plates are already overflowing.

I'm not opposed to the idea of shops. I just imagine all the work on the back end and that's probably what has stalled LL from doing it to begin with.

[davidventer]

1 hour ago, Jolly Nova said:

But would a resident report their favorite creator for violating the covenant? Probably not.

No, but disgruntled neighboring store owners certainly would. So, the same would apply here as with Linden Homes.

1 hour ago, Jolly Nova said:

There would also need to be a new covenant specifically for commercial regions since currently, you cannot have a shop that exchanges goods for Linden dollars. 

Yes, exactly; There would need to be a covenant specifically tailored for Commercial Use with its own rules, and regulations. 

1 hour ago, Jolly Nova said:

It wouldn't become mainland. However there would HAVE to be strict policing of the commercial regions.

No more than is necessary with Linden Homes. And the same procedures could apply.

1 hour ago, Jolly Nova said:

Also, if a shop sells things that go outside... if they aren't in the theme of the area they're in... wouldn't that make the area ugly?

The covenant could state that it must be in theme, or structure the shop layouts in such a way that it's not possible to place anything outside the shop; where the front door ends by the parcel border. In an previous reply I did mention the idea of Scripted signs outside allowing shop owners to load their store logo into the sign, and that being the only thing visible from the outside. (Just an idea)

1 hour ago, Jolly Nova said:

I just don't see Moles or Lindens having the time to do all those things,

What things? Again, how would this be different from the setup of Linden Homes? Yes they are busy working on expanding Linden Homes now, hence I put "Future" in the OP title. But eventually, working on this would be no more work than the setup, maintenance, and covenant rule enforcement of Linden Homes. Yes, they would have to come up with new themes, new shop builds, a new covenant - similar work load than setting up a new Linden Homes theme. But at the end of the day, literally the only difference here would be that commercial activity would be allowed. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by davidventer

[Eowyn Southmoor]

You need to get out more if you think people in Bellisseria are actually following the covenant 

The number of violations I see every day is astounding, and only getting worse with each new theme that is released. Of course, as 90% of Belli inhabitants barely step outside their front door, it's not surprising that many think everything is just peachy in Bellisseria. Definitely a case of out of sight, out of mind

 

[Butterfli Summers]

@davidventer I personally love this idea.  I have hoped for a long time that they would make small quaint little shopping areas throughout Belli as mentioned in the KB.  It could be done very tastefully with like a town square maybe a large bell tower or clock in the center where four roads meet.  Nothing says it has to be a mall.  Leave the "shopping events" to the fairgrounds and such.

I don't envision this would take more work than usual ongoing, as LL doesn't police shops today for the masses and the residents police covenant violations in Bellisseria same as could be done in space.  I personally would up my land allowance and pay more to own one if it was done nicely.

I kind of see this as "Small Business" for Bellisserians that are creative types.  Shopping events for me are over done.  I don't like fighting the masses to do shopping, I prefer to shop leisurely and while events are good for sales....I wouldn't see these stores used for sole income creators types, more like I make stuff for hobby...here is my little inworld shop, find me on marketplace, small business.  If that makes sense?!?

It would also be nice for those that have converted a home into an art gallery where they could charge for a commission and sell art if they moved into a shop sort of along these lines.  https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/ROOST-Vintage-Shops-Pack/10331221

 

[davidventer]

6 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

You need to get out more if you think people in Bellisseria are actually following the covenant 

I travel around quite frequently. I enjoy driving to all the public spots, parks, lodges, etc. I have yet to see a single eye-sore violation. So far, the only violation I’ve come across is a security orb set to 10secs and TP home instead of 15sec and eject, and I’ve only come across one of those. 

[animats]

4 hours ago, davidventer said:

I have yet to see a single eye-sore violation.

There goes the neighborhood.

[Rabid Cheetah]

4 minutes ago, animats said:

There goes the neighborhood.

 

Looks like a lot of thought went into that.  I'd consider it in-theme.

[Eowyn Southmoor]

yep, nothing to see here folks, move along:

 

[Hunny Bunny]

[davidventer]

10 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

yep, nothing to see here folks, move along:

 

OMG. Burn it! LOL. 

But yeah, that's what AR is for, isn't it?

Also, is this REALLY there all the time, or did you do this temporarily just to take a pic and troll my post? 

Drop the SLURL, let's see this "beautiful farm" but first, please hold my hair, I need to hurl into a bucket.

[Eowyn Southmoor]

Until this month (when I gave up), every single day that I travelled through Belli would result in at least one AR being being filed for things like the above. I wouldn't be surprised if I have filed more than 100 since Belli was first released. Not all of them as bad as the above picture but all still not following the covenant.

Of course this is what AR's are for, and that's my point - there is a lot of AR'able things in Bellisseria, proven by things like the picture above and how many I  (and others) have sent.

Now to refute your ridiculous veiled claim that I an responsible for the above mess. This particular mess is (thankfully) not there anymore - it was reported by me some time in the last month or two and had since been removed. If you go look through the forums, in one of the topics I posted the same picture - well before you started this topic.

The fact you haven't encountered many covenant violations doesn't mean they don't exist - something you seem to have difficulty in grasping.

Regardless, I don't appreciate your attempt to refute what i say by making pathetic, absurd and false accusations. I'm done on this thread, enjoy your blissful ignorance.

[Rabid Cheetah]

[Rabid Cheetah]

Well, that was shocking.

Um, anyhow, I came to this thread to point out an idea in the New Theme thread, vis-à-vis combined commercial/residential in Belli.  Um, go look there.

[davidventer]

9 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

This particular mess is (thankfully) not there anymore - it was reported by me some time in the last month or two and had since been removed.

Well, what's the problem then? 

9 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

Regardless, I don't appreciate your attempt to refute what i say by making pathetic, absurd and false accusations. I'm done on this thread, enjoy your blissful ignorance.

It wasn't an accusation, it was a question. I just found it absurd because in all my travels, I've never come across anything THAT out of theme in Bellisseria... Or really anything out of theme. Sure, I haven't been everywhere yet, and I'm sure there are some violations out there, but I drive and fly around nearly every day, and everywhere I've been, everything looked in-theme and beautiful. Really the only things that are an eye-sore for me are full-bright plants and trees - Driving around at night and suddenly being nearly blinded by a palm tree - but full bright anything (except flames or actual light bulbs, that are ON) is a personal pet peeve and is not necessarily out of theme nor against any other Covenant regulation, is it? So what some users on here claim is a big problem, doesn't seem to be such a big problem at all, and is perhaps highly exaggerated, or the Moles are just doing an epic job at swiftly cleaning up reported violations (If that's the case, thank you for that,  Moles, you're awesome!). 

Edited December 10, 2021 by davidventer