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Sonya Bigboots

To Megaprim, or Not megaprim.... that is the question.

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Hi, just been having fun creating buildings with megaprims. Its great to be able to make a massive structure and not use up the prim allowance of Bolivia.

But I wondered as a merchant, is there a market for buildings using megaprims, or do people generally prefer "regular" prims?

(I know the max size of reguilar prims may be increased sometime in the future, but this is  about customer demand, not possible future improvements to SL - there are other live threads about that issue)

Sonya x.

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To answer your questions: Yes and No. Everyone and their dog builds with megaprims for exactly the reason you quoted and, similarly, lots of people buy megaprim structures so that they can have 'epic' structures and still have a few prims left over.

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Use megaprims where needed. Your customers would just be annoyed if they would need to edit your product and replace pile of regular prims with megaprims.

There is absolutely no reason to avoid megaprims. (Exept maybe those 4 people who still believe that megaprims cause more lag than smaller prims. They have not heard that the bug was fixed 2007)

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Well, in less than 2 months, SL will have prims with 64m limits, instead of our current 10m limit. Ok, they won't be as big as some megaprims, but you will have full prim edit functionality. Personally, I used megaprims all the time for my own sim builds, but I've never sold a product with megaprims.

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For me the important is not whether used or not. megas. The important is the INFORMATION, to know before my pruchase if that build use megaprims.

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>Well, in less than 2 months, SL will have prims with 64m limits, instead of our current 10m limit.

You mean when mesh is released?

Don't hold your breath. It's increasingly clear to me that what is happening is that LL has painted itself into a corner by letting their technical development get ahead of available user technology.

Two years ago, they probably never imagined they're have comparably equal numbers of users who demand mesh and users who have systems in which mesh will produce all the lag and other ill effects you just don't see on the beta grid because there's no lag there, and because only people will pretty good systems go there in the first place.

LL just hasn't figured out how to explain this away yet. Ask them and see if they can deny it. Go ahead.

OTOH, my disposable alt does have a 64m mesh model of the Brooklyn Bridge that she'll be happy to sell to you, and which you can rez "in less than 2 months", as it were.

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I'm not sure it is a big deal, at least it is not for me, if a build use megaprims or not, as long - and I totally agree with Irene on this - as information is given to the customer stating megas are used in the build. If you are on a 512 lot and want to put up a building, you have very few prims available. A building with megaprims would mean you could get a very low prim, decent size house to put on it, while still have prims left over for furniture.

- Luc -

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To me it boils down to this:

Megaprims cannot be resized. Regular prims can be resized. Megaprims can be problematic for people with really low draw distance. Therefore I tend to try and stay below 64m. I've used bigger ones for my build platform, but it's kinda creepy to walk on _nothing_ if the platforms center is beyond my draw distance.

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I used megaprims primarily for sculpties. They tend to be much better as far as LOD is concerned. Texture alignments can be a little tricky depending on the path cut but it will improve with my own experience and practice.

When buying for a set of objects, furniture, house, etc... It is also quite important to let buyers know that those items were built using megaprims and they can modify, at their own risk. Using megaprims as part of your selling items may or may not be lucrative depending on the level of knowledge of the buyers when it comes to building and prim options.

Outdoor structures like a house, trees or plants will usually have no or minimal issues with megaprims. It is when less knowledgable buyers (like yours truly) who bought megaprim objects thinking they could use it in a confined space will end up getting frustrated. for its no modifiable perms without realizing it would do them more harm.

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I agree Amana.

My take on that is to sell the items as no-mod so people can't accidentally try to resize a magaprim, but then to also tell people why, as some people don't realise magaprims  can't be resized untill its too late.

After all, it would seem a bit unfair to sell a megaprim item as modifiable, knowing that it cannot be resized.

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Good point Jenni.

I must admit, I hadn't even thought of the draw distance issue, but that could be really important to people who have to set a very short draw distance becasue they have slow graphics cards.

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I'm going to take an increase in the regular prims size limit as a pleasant surprise when it happens - I'm not going to hold my breath though until it happens.

Its interesting that you use megaprims yourself, but not in things you sell to other people. Is there a reason why you came to that decision?

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Absolutely! After all, some rental properties and Linden homes don't allow megaprims to be used there. People need to know what they are buying in advance.

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Well, interesting that nobody said megaprim products rarely sell, so I guess the general answer is use them when appropriate on 'large' projects, but let people know a product contains them before they buy.

----------------------------------

As an aside, I am going abroad on Saturday for a couple of weeks, so don't think I am being rude if I don't seem to be replying to your postings - I am probably lying on a beach somewhere :)

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Sonya Bigboots wrote:

I'm going to take an increase in the regular prims size limit as a pleasant surprise when it happens - I'm not going to hold my breath though until it happens.

Its interesting that you use megaprims yourself, but not in things you sell to other people. Is there a reason why you came to that decision?

No reason really, other than, I don't sell things that need mega prims.

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Josh Susanto wrote:

>Well, in less than 2 months, SL will have prims with 64m limits, instead of our current 10m limit.

You mean when mesh is released?

Don't hold your breath. It's increasingly clear to me that what is happening is that LL has painted itself into a corner by letting their technical development get ahead of available user technology.

Two years ago, they probably never imagined they're have comparably equal numbers of users who demand mesh and users who have systems in which mesh will produce all the lag and other ill effects you just don't see on the beta grid because there's no lag there, and because only people will pretty good systems go there in the first place.

LL just hasn't figured out how to explain this away yet. Ask them and see if they can deny it. Go ahead.

OTOH, my disposable alt does have a 64m mesh model of the Brooklyn Bridge that she'll be happy to sell to you, and which you can rez "in less than 2 months", as it were.

lol, well, i hope you are wrong.

From what I understand, there is no reason at all that a mesh object should cause any more lag than anything else. A mesh is just a set of triangle, no different than your avatar. If a mesh uses less traingles and less textures than a prim version, there is no reason it would cause more lag, except if there is some physics reason. Lag, in my observations, has very little to do with any1's pc, and is more related to the internet service, and the sim you are in. The vast majority of sim builders do not understand at all why their sim lag, even LL created sims lag way more than they should.

If the sim lags, it could be a number of reasons.

How many sculpts are you using on the sim? As sculpts have way more triangle than they need to have.

How many scripts are you using on the sim?

How many textures are you using on the sim?

How many avatars are on the sim? Even 1 avatar with thousands of attachments can lag every1, and it is not any scripts they are wearing that is doing it.

For years, texture and cache lag were blown off as none relevant, but it is my observation that these make up the majority of lag issues that people have. If your pc is constantly deleting and uploading 100s of textures and what not, then you will see massive lag. Personally, I don't understand why our caches are so dang small. I have a terabyte of room on my pc. Maybe 8 years ago, a small cache made sense, but today, hard drive space is a none issue.

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I hope I'm wrong, too.

I don't manage sims, so I just look at what's around when there's lag.

In that department, most of what I know about mesh is that, regardless of what everyone expects, mesh has not been deployed under normal grid conditions, and can't necessarily be expected to behave as it does in beta.

And as much as I would like to believe there is some other good reason why it's being held back, I can't really seem to come up with any theory that doesn't make even less sense.

So, in accordance with Occam's Razor... well...

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Sorry for taking this thread off topic. It is just a very interesting conversation.

Another big part of the lag problem that I see, is that creators do not give all the relevant data. Even on the marketplace, we only see prim counts. If an object uses a unique texture on every face of every prim, this is something the customer should know. On the marketplace, there should be, at the very least, a place to say how many textures make up a build. Most of the time, when I search for something, I don't see more than 1 line of a description from the creator. Needless to say, I don't buy from people who don't have time to write a decent description.

This is also why I'm a big advocate for mesh. They use a custom made UV map, which usually can result in 1 texture for the whole mesh, or even 1 texture for multiple meshes. This 1 factor can reduce the total amounts of textures that every1 has to download by a factor of 10 or more.

Oh and just a note.... these are just my thoughts. The reality is that I know nothing.

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I think you are being too harsh on mesh. Sculpties are Schmoo, not mesh. Mesh can be alot more detailed than sculpts, and be a fraction of the amount of data, using a custom UV texture map and combining maps together.

Mesh M4.jpg

This is 1 mesh, 1 texture, and cost about 4 prims. On the marketplace, to get anything close to this, you would need alot more prims and textures, which would add up to double or triple the amount of data that this is. If some1 used all scupts, then we are talking 10 times the data. And I'm not even good at mesh.

Why all the delays? For 1, people want to keep their jobs. Another is, given the problems they created with sculpties and lag by not having more restrictions, they are trying to dot every i. Plus, they are dealing with multiple different programs, which also include multiple different collada exporters. LL also got fooled by all the people screaming that people would just import professional content, which is BS, and not the problem of ISPs.

Personally tho, I think, LL has to understand that the lag is because of the lack of standards. As in real life, there are a thousand ways to build a house. Some are good, some are bad. In RL, we make laws and put restrictions on what people are allowed to do, which i do not agree with. In SL, we just need to create a set of standards and educate people. Much like the lag that was produced by resize script, once it was known, the residents themselves informed every1 and most creators were kinda forced to except the standard of automatic script deletion after resize. LL could have taken the lead in this.

So the bottom line about lag is, that it is the builders, sim owner, and consumers that create the laggyness. LL has very little to do with the end result, but they can do more to inform. I don't usually defend LL, but when the right occasion presents itself, I will.:matte-motes-big-grin:

Of course, these are just my opinions.

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Oh, I also should mention, that the most important thing about mesh to reduce lag, is that mesh objects will replace the 2 most lag intense set of objects that almost every1 wears. These are shoes and hair. Shoes and hair are the 2 items that use massive amounts of prims to create. Mesh will cut the prim amount in half or much more.

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This is very true. These are small and therefore in the range where aggressive LOD can get low prim equivalence cost. Of course that is irrelevant for attachments, but it does show the gpu burden is low.

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Boy, I would love it if mesh creators actually showed the wireframe in the signs or on the marketplace. I'm looking for a low poly shoe creator with awesome texture skills. I hate how much ARC my current shoes show, they do look good, lol. I did unlink about 10 prims from them tho.:matte-motes-oh-rly:

 

Oh, and sorry again. I've totally highjacked this thread and made it all about mesh. Sorry!

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Yes knowing whether a product uses megaprims before you buy is critical. If  you live on Linden land or on an estate that does not permit megas, then buying a megaprim-based product is a waste of money (unless you buy it as a gift for someone who can use it). So it's always good to mention megaprim use in product descriptions.

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I routinely use megaprims where I know it will save on prim usage as that can be a major concern for newer, smaller landowners. Over time I've also taken to using sculpties for the same effect (allowing for walls that seem to be made of dozens of prims but are actually only 1).

Just make sure that any build with megas is copy - so that if a person messes it up and the prims snap down to 10m size, they can rez a new copy. And never make the mega the root prim, as the entire build will then show the wrong creator name.

Hopefully soon these issues will be moot points as the size of prims we can use will go up.

 

 

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