Time to ban all other security than Linden Homes security system?

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

37 minutes ago, Max Nova said:

 

Funny thing you should ask.... I woke up to this notice from Bellisseria Citizens this morning (please note the owner and admins of Bellisseria Citizens obviously DO NOT condone this behaviour).

" - If your hud shows less candies than you had, you'll get them back when you touch a new bucket. 
- If your bucket stops working, take it into your inventory and rez it. It'll fix itself. - If you find a security system that follows covenant: move on. If it doesn't follow covenant, there are 3 things you can do: move on OR report it and move on OR send an IM to the owner and move on. Please, do not post slurls in chat and complain to prevent people being harassed. Thank you."

 

I think that pretty much supports what I said and answers your question(s). I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, people who are breaking the LL covenant should be reported, if nothing else to  to keep Bellisseria from turning into mainland, however some folks have taken it upon themselves to become as you say "vigilantes" and are just looking for problems, that's the sort of thing that turns into a witch-hunt, it makes people uncomfortable when a group of people are roaming around looking to nitpick anything they don't like. As for the teleporting into peoples homes to test their security systems, over and over again, rather than happening upon them by chance is harassment in my opinion. 

In my experience 99% of the people in Bellisseria are following the covenant or at least trying to.

Nothing in that notice says anything about groups of avatars doing nothing but wandering around for the sole purpose of looking for those evil wrongdoer orbs.  It asks that you not name, shame, and give out slURLs in the group chat, but to move on and/or report it yourself.

A Bellisseria Militia does not exist, so there is no reason to conspiracy theory one into existence or to try and make the person in the wrong the victim. 

The garbage truck role-play does, but if you stick out a belli-pin and your recycling bin just to instantly eject the garbage man home when he arrives to empty it, expect that person to report it.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Cinnamon Mistwood
Ugh. Spelling

[Max Nova]

31 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Nothing in that notice says anything about groups of avatars doing nothing but wandering around for the sole purpose of looking for those evil wrongdoer orbs.  It asks that you not name, shame, and give out slURLs in the group chat, but to move on and/or report it yourself.

A Bellisseria Militia does not exist, so there is no reason to conspiracy theory one into existence or to try and make the person in the wrong the victim. 

The garbage truck role-play does, but if you stick out a belli-pin and your recycling bin just to instantly eject the garbage man home when he arrives to empty it, expect that person to report it.

The notice says '...Please, do not post slurls in chat and complain to prevent people being harassed. Thank you.' -- It says that because people where using the URLs to swarm people and harass them!  

I think enough has been said here, do as you wish, I'm not going to get caught up in a semantics debate. 

[ChiChi Fredericks]

On 10/27/2021 at 8:07 PM, Max Nova said:

People hunting down security systems for the sake of ARing people are starting to grief, harass and are becoming a general nuisance. 

Well stated in the Bellisseria Citizens group notice: 

"If you find a security system that follows covenant: move on. If it doesn't follow covenant, there are 3 things you can do: move on OR report it and move on (no bitching in chat necessary, there's been enough of that, thank you very much) OR send an IM to the owner and move on."

Some people are on a witch-hunt (no pun intended) looking for people to report and repeatedly teleporting into peoples homes to "test" the systems which tends to get them banned, justifiably so.

 

3 hours ago, Max Nova said:

 

Funny thing you should ask.... I woke up to this notice from Bellisseria Citizens this morning (please note the owner and admins of Bellisseria Citizens obviously DO NOT condone this behaviour).

" - If your hud shows less candies than you had, you'll get them back when you touch a new bucket. 
- If your bucket stops working, take it into your inventory and rez it. It'll fix itself. - If you find a security system that follows covenant: move on. If it doesn't follow covenant, there are 3 things you can do: move on OR report it and move on OR send an IM to the owner and move on. Please, do not post slurls in chat and complain to prevent people being harassed. Thank you."

 

I think that pretty much supports what I said and answers your question(s). I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, people who are breaking the LL covenant should be reported, if nothing else to  to keep Bellisseria from turning into mainland, however some folks have taken it upon themselves to become as you say "vigilantes" and are just looking for problems, that's the sort of thing that turns into a witch-hunt, it makes people uncomfortable when a group of people are roaming around looking to nitpick anything they don't like. As for the teleporting into peoples homes to test their security systems, over and over again, rather than happening upon them by chance is harassment in my opinion. 

In my experience 99% of the people in Bellisseria are following the covenant or at least trying to.

You don't even need to be in their homes, you can just get bumped into their side of the fence for some of these to go off. So on the flip side of this where yes, some people may abuse a lack of them and so yes, they are a necessary evil. That having a no to not enough time to remove your self from an accidental ending up in their land. Especially when driving or flying around is also a significant issue. The common lands are for all of us to enjoy. And don't participate in group activities if you are going to keep them up is also the lesson learned with the Halloween hunt. 

My experince is far less than 99% are following the rules. More like 60-70%

[Freddie Venus]

I don't think AR'ing something which is against the covenant is griefing and harrassing. I come across a lot of these annoying orbs because I fly a lot over Belli.  I report every single one that is against the covenant. I don't purposely hunt them down they find me 🤣. I don't know what's gone on in the citizens chat as I'm not in that group but I suspect people have innocently mentioned where they've come across an orb that boots them when there's a bucket outside and it's been turned into something more.

Anyway in regards to Marianne's original posting I would say yes it would be lovely if these teleport home/instant ban orbs were banished from Belli, they are an irritation to people like me who travel a lot. I do use the Linden orb sometimes but I find setting all of your furniture so only people in your group can sit on it a lot more effective at keeping away silly people. If they see me naked I'm not even bothered 🤣 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Madonna666
Sponge brain use wrong word

[Jaylinbridges]

1 hour ago, Madonna666 said:

I don't know what's gone on in the citizens chat as I'm not in that group but I suspect people have innocently mentioned where they've come across an orb that boots then when there's a bucket outside and it's been turned into something more.

Yes that's just what happened.  No vigilantes, trying to enforce the Belli TOS, but just the mention and warning that when you TP to that parcel, watch out because they have an illegal orb, OR they TP you inside their locked door home, so you can not avoid getting ejected within 15 secs, even with a legal hud. It can take 30 secs for the textures to rez so you can even find the door, or cam outside.  Most of the orb's reported are violating the Belli TOS however, and should be reported.

Any time a new location is reported in the Citizens Group there is a "swarm" of candy hunters that go there within minutes, even if the parcel has an orb that will eject you.  

Max's understanding of that Citizens Group message (which has been repeated frequently for days) is simply wrong.  They don't want locations with pumpkins that have a security that might eject/ban you reported OR discussed in that group.  It's bad publicity for Bellisseria and SL, and this is an SL marketing event.  It is not LL's official statement at all, but it might as well be.

In the past the Moles said always AR the illegal orb's, and they would take care of it. But they can't possibly enforce the Covenant with this many AR's from an event they created.  So, it's move on, and only AR if you really want too. (But don't expect any quick response, the event will long be over before we can track down illegal orbs.)

LL management made a mistake by allowing private brand orbs in Belli. But after 2+ years of this policy, it's too late, "too hard", to change it and actually search for all the illegal orbs. There are probably over 1000 private orbs that violate the Belli covenant by now.  The great Halloween event just made this more obvious.  Flyers and boaters have been complaining and ARing for years, but they are a small minority of residents.  Not enough squeak to get the grease. 

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[Marianne Little]

22 hours ago, Max Nova said:

@Marianne Little It is harassment when people keep teleporting into someones home multiple times to see what sort of security system they have when they can easily see it says " LH - Security System // V2.3.2: You are in a restricted area. Please leave within XX seconds." "LH - Security System // V2.3.2: Good bye!" 

But to keep going back and teleporting into the persons home over and over again because one simply does not like it, is harassment in my opinion. 

 

You have to be 5 m close to the bucket, most people has their bucket close to the door?

The hunter can maybe not see the bucket in 15 seconds because everything is grey - ejected. Then going in again, but walk "on the spot" because they lag - ejected. Third attempt, the home owner may have a transparent branch from a bush partially covering the bucket, so it's clicked on but not the bucket. Click, click, click - ejected.

Or the bucked has stopped to work, because it must be taken to inventory and rezzed again to work. The candy hunter will then go in and try to click it multiple times, until they give up and move on. This is the most logical explanation. The bucket does not message its owner to say: "I have stopped working, please come and rez me again:"

How do the home owner even see that they have had multiple entrances of the same person? As far as I know, LH security does not record visitors, or do it? I admit I don't know.

Sorry if you have left the discussion, maybe others can tell if the LH security record visitors name and the number of time they enter the parcel.

 

[Mollymews]

on the bright side, could look at getting ejected as part of the Halloween tradition!. Trick or Treat !

the Trick is that  if you don't get the Treat in 15 seconds then the wicked widgey casts a evil spell and aahhh! you get blasted out onto the street

could be made even more ebil !  Like after 15 seconds a broom gets rezzed by you and Whack !! Get off my porch !!  kehehehe! 😸

 

[Marianne Little]

I would not take the Bellisseria Citizens group as it was a Linden official group. It is not, and what the owner mean is harassment can comply with LL rules.

Nothing says you can not go in a property again if the bucket will not give you candy, until you get tired of trying.

Using a fixed landing point is not a good idea when you set it inside. Why not set your home inside the house instead, and set the land to group so your friends and family can also set their home in there.

It is a lot of misunderstandings, rage and exaggerations making their way around.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Marianne Little

[Teresa Firelight]

I dont use security orbs in Bellisseria, and I dont like orbs in general. But I do understand the issue from the other side.  This is a true story that was relayed to me:

Someone has a nice home and they have an orb that ejects people in 15 seconds, as per covenant. Then a nearby neighbor puts up a pumpkin.. and the link to it is near their property line.  People TP into the link (intended for the neighbors) and before things rezzed clearly have stepped into their land and gotten the orb warning.  Maybe they miss the warning ..easy to do if you are trying to look around and not reading local and they get ejected.

Now someone gets upset at being ejected and reports it in group chat, giving the SLURL to the pumpkin. Someone else in group chat finds orbs a pet peeve, so they make a big thing of it, get others stirred up, and people come to visit and test to see if the orb is illegal. And even though it is legal, some take it on themselves to leave terse IMs to the orb owner about how can you put a pumpkin out and have your security orb on?

The poor orb owner who doesnt even have a pumpkin out ignores the first terse IM, but by the third and fourth one they are starting to feel harassed.

Please remember that people have the right to use security orbs on their property, providing the orb follows the covenant rules. Please do not try to make someone feel bad for having a legal orb out.

[Claireschen Hesten]

3 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

How do the home owner even see that they have had multiple entrances of the same person? As far as I know, LH security does not record visitors, or do it? I admit I don't know.

Even if the LH security device doesn't have a visitor tracker. The trackers I've used recognise a name once regardless of how many times they visit. The tracker script would have to be reset daily to see if multiple visits are made

[Nick0678]

I was at a friend's place in Beli the other day and we were having voice sex..At some point we took a break and had a look at SL just to find out that there was a fine sexy female avatar inside the house standing next to ours...

I asked, what you looking for girl?

It's Halloween I am looking for some candy, she replied.

Well then... welcome to the Candy Shop.. 

 

...and the 3 of us had an amazing afternoon together just because the Security Orb was switched off.  Happy Halloween.

 

[Garnet Psaltery]

I've said this before, but here's this topic again.  I'm not going into the reasons why I use an orb at all, but will say why I use a non-LL one.  There are two reasons.  1)  It tells me who has visited.  I'm curious, and I want to know if there's been a troublemaker.  2)  The LL orb is too harsh for me.  It gives someone 15 seconds to leave; I like to give 20 or more.   Also it sets an upper range that's too high for me; I like mine just above the house, to allow people to fly over at a reasonable height.

I can't comment on the pumpkin problem since I don't know what's actually happening there.

[Marianne Little]

2 hours ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

I've said this before, but here's this topic again.  I'm not going into the reasons why I use an orb at all, but will say why I use a non-LL one.  There are two reasons.  1)  It tells me who has visited.  I'm curious, and I want to know if there's been a troublemaker.  2)  The LL orb is too harsh for me.  It gives someone 15 seconds to leave; I like to give 20 or more.   Also it sets an upper range that's too high for me; I like mine just above the house, to allow people to fly over at a reasonable height.

I can't comment on the pumpkin problem since I don't know what's actually happening there.

If you mean candy buckets and not pumpkins, this thread over by Patch Linden explains it. I am not sure if I have used "pumpkin" instead of buckets. The bucket is shaped as a pumpkin.

Ignore all I write under this line if you already know that it is about The Great Trick or Treat Event, Bellisseria.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is special Linden bears to win. Only the top 10* get the super rare, special bear. This is going to be the only bears of this kind in Second Life. No one that participate have any idea if they are in the top ten. So they fly over every region and use area search and other helps to find every bucket they can. It is very hard to avoid to swerve into the parcels, even if they try to follow protected land. If that parcel has a 0 seconds/send home orb, they get very stressed and angry. Not all know how to find back to where they were ejected and it destroys their search pattern.

I bet it has never been so many avatars roaming in Bellisseria. And the security that violate the rules makes the hunters AR them. But LL has never responded very fast to these ARs, so the ejected avatars encourage friends and others to AR the security too. Since it is a competition with only 10 rare prices, it is more a race and not so much fun for those who will be one of the ten. It is much complaints about orbs in groups too. I have no idea how many AR's LL have received.

(* I was writing before that only the top 25 get the super special bear. That was wrong, it is actually 10. Imagine thousand avatars trying to get enough candy to get in the top ten. Or maybe 500 avatars, I believe many has quit. No one knows how many it is out hunting.)

And also someone has said that those with LH security has got angry messages because people has set sloppy landmarks that is on their border.

SL is not a very good environment to hunt in, because most of us need time before everything has rezzed. Before that, if we try to walk 1 step away we can walk into another parcel.

It is also some who are 100% sure that people with security has set out candy buckets, even those who have 0 second warning.

And you have to stand minimum 5 m from the bucket, it makes it impossible to stand outside the parcel and click it. Unless some smart ones placed the candy bucket on the border. Most people use the porch, and they are much more than 5 m from the border.

 

[Marianne Little]

4 hours ago, Teresa Firelight said:

I dont use security orbs in Bellisseria, and I dont like orbs in general. But I do understand the issue from the other side.  This is a true story that was relayed to me:

Someone has a nice home and they have an orb that ejects people in 15 seconds, as per covenant. Then a nearby neighbor puts up a pumpkin.. and the link to it is near their property line.  People TP into the link (intended for the neighbors) and before things rezzed clearly have stepped into their land and gotten the orb warning.  Maybe they miss the warning ..easy to do if you are trying to look around and not reading local and they get ejected.

Now someone gets upset at being ejected and reports it in group chat, giving the SLURL to the pumpkin. Someone else in group chat finds orbs a pet peeve, so they make a big thing of it, get others stirred up, and people come to visit and test to see if the orb is illegal. And even though it is legal, some take it on themselves to leave terse IMs to the orb owner about how can you put a pumpkin out and have your security orb on?

The poor orb owner who doesnt even have a pumpkin out ignores the first terse IM, but by the third and fourth one they are starting to feel harassed.

Please remember that people have the right to use security orbs on their property, providing the orb follows the covenant rules. Please do not try to make someone feel bad for having a legal orb out.

I am sorry to hear that. It can be innocent victims, like in your story. This made me stop and think. The SL environment is not so good for these kind of hunts, since most of us must wait before we can see things around us. When it is a competition with only 10 rare prices, it is more a race than a fun thing to do. Stress = anger.

I have never had the need to know who has visited, but I understand you want to know it. I would use a visitor counter script and place it in a carpet or another thing.

[Marianne Little]

On 10/28/2021 at 9:39 AM, Marianne Little said:

The way LL set the rules to win the prizes, is making people who really want that top prize stressed and more on edge when they search for candy. It was a great idea, but the top prize are impossible to win unless you are number 1-25. Are you number 26, no special super bear for you. The award is only for the top, no one knows how close they are to the top. If LL had set the goals so you got a prize when you found a fixed number of candy, it would be a clear goal to reach.

I could not edit, so I quote myself.

The bolded over: It is only the top 10 that get the super special rare bear, not the top 25. I was remembering it wrong. This is making it even more important to find as much candy as possible.

[Abnor Mole]

Just some points of clarification:

The top 100 winners will receive the Evil Bear (devil).

The Top 35 winners will also receive the Magic Bear (wizard).

And finally, the top 10 winners will ALSO get the Deaddy Bear (zombie)

Everyone who participates and collects at least one candy gets the Skelly Bear (skeleton)

As far as what to do when encountering an orb that isn't set properly or being told yours isn't... I recommend remembering two things before doing anything:
"Always assume ignorance before malice" (Hanlon's Razor). 
“Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured.” – Mark Twain

[Polenth Yue]

I find the discussion pretty uncomfortable from two directions. The first is I'm someone who talked about bad banning experiences, but I didn't ask for all orbs to be banned on my behalf. I want people to sort out their orb settings and for some changes to future events to make it easier to avoid stepping onto parcels.

The second is trying to use times when someone has harassed a home owner to justify why it was okay to ban me for using the public areas. I am not the person who did the harassing. I didn't report anyone. I've done everything possible to stay out of the way during the event. It doesn't become okay for me to get randomly banned for using the road because someone else entered a house and shouted at the owner.

What I will say is that I haven't been randomly banned for the last few days. There has been increased awareness about the event and some home owners have sorted their orbs after the complaints. Which was the goal in complaining.

[Mariyah Arabello]

I have flown over Belli so many times in the last few days that I feel I should demand frequent flyer miles and get special promos (this is a joke). I think I have encountered every orb sold on the grid. 99% of them do not bother me, even the ones who do not give the whole 15 secs as per covenant. Most bump me just outside the parcel, which doesn't bother me. I have encountered maybe two or three that have teleported me home instantly (and it is possible one of those two or three is the same one I keep flying over). Those two or three irritate me and I consider AR'ing them, but then I choose to just move on and continue with my fun.

I am fine with using the LL supplied orbs, and I am fine with people choosing the orb they want to use. I wish people would read the covenant, but the fact is, a lot of people do not. That is obvious in my travels through this event. I see platforms floating above people's houses, big flashing cubes, stacked up over a parcel which can be seen a sim away, ugly full bright 6 meter walls around the entire parcel, and ugly out of theme grass parcel size platforms under water stilts and on and on.

People who do not read the covenant now (or read it and do what they want anyway), are going to continue to not read it or follow it, whether LL ban's third-party security or not.

ETA: I wanted to clarify that I haven't seen enough covenant issues to warrant big broad bans of third-party orbs and by doing so, the only people who will be willing to make the change will be the ones already following the covenant and the few offenders will go on offending.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Mariyah Arabello
Added some :-)

[Matthieu Quander]

5 minutes ago, Mariyah Arabello said:

People who do not read the covenant now (or read it and do what they want anyway), are going to continue to not read it or follow it, whether LL ban's third-party security or not.

I completely agree.  This is the core issue that needs to be addressed.  As @Abnor Mole noted, most violations are due to ignorance.  How can that be addressed?  I don't think citizens educating other citizens is the recipe for success, as it can be difficult to both give and receive a "read the covenant" message in the manner intended, depending on the sender and recipient.  

I think there needs to be something automated that triggers a pop-up when the home owner visits a claimed parcel for the first time (or next time to cover existing owners).  Require a checkbox verifying that the covenant has been read before allowing access to the parcel settings or house controls.  I don't know how difficult it would be to implement something along those lines, and some would still click without reading, but I think the communication needs to come from official Linden channels to be taken seriously.

[LittleMe Jewell]

33 minutes ago, Matthieu Quander said:

I think there needs to be something automated that triggers a pop-up when the home owner visits a claimed parcel for the first time (or next time to cover existing owners).  Require a checkbox verifying that the covenant has been read before allowing access to the parcel settings or house controls.

Wouldn't matter.  Folks would check the box, but not actually read anything.  

Even when the box stays greyed out until you scroll to the bottom of a message box, people scroll without actually reading anything.

[Nick0678]

57 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Wouldn't matter.  Folks would check the box, but not actually read anything.  

Even when the box stays greyed out until you scroll to the bottom of a message box, people scroll without actually reading anything.

Yep.. wouldn't read it even if they paid me. It's just a game, no need to waste time reading stuff etc.

[Nika Talaj]

44 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

Yep.. wouldn't read it even if they paid me. It's just a game, no need to waste time reading stuff etc.

Well, ethics are ethics, whether you're in RL or in a game.  In Linden Home regions, you read the covenant (it's just a few short paragraphs, not a book f'chrissake) and try to abide by it for the same reasons that you take a shower or get a vaccine in RL - for the welfare of others with whom you share the region.  A form of citizenship that makes for a smoother-operating society.  Belli is kinda all about community, not just one's own impulses.

That said, the LH covenant is much lighter-weight than the rules in any RP region I've ever visited. 

Most of mainland has no such concept, so interactions there can be more free-wheeling and game-like.

[Nick0678]

1 hour ago, Nika Talaj said:

Well, ethics are ethics, whether you're in RL or in a game.  In Linden Home regions, you read the covenant...

Nah... i never did and never will be. It's boring to read stuff in games.. I log in play my game and then log out.

If something goes terribly wrong (which never does) LL has procedures and people who will notify me somehow.

Whatever it says.. sure OK i accept. (clicks Close)

Edited October 29, 2021 by Nick0678

[Annie Nova]

2 hours ago, Nick0678 said:

Nah... i never did and never will be. It's boring to read stuff in games.. I log in play my game and then log out.

If something goes terribly wrong (which never does) LL has procedures and people who will notify me somehow.

Whatever it says.. sure OK i accept. (clicks Close)

And when you get banned for doing something against the TOS because you didn't have time to read it, you'll be the first one in here crying "omg, how could they ban me??" nuff said. i'm done.

[Kathlen Onyx]

5 minutes ago, Annie Nova said:

And when you get banned for doing something against the TOS because you didn't have time to read it, you'll be the first one in here crying "omg, how could they ban me??" nuff said. i'm done.

That's a bit dramatic don't you think? He's talking about the covenant for Bellisseria not the TOS which I'm sure he knows what not to violate. It's really just common sense.