Paul Hexem Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I found a store in-world, complete with listings on the marketplace.The owner is gone from SL (won't even show up in search, and people in his groups say he's banned), but they still have a store on mainland, in their name, and stuff listed on the marketplace.The first thing I wonder is, how do you get support if you buy from this person and something goes wrong?The second thing I wonder- isn't there something illegal about selling someone's creations and keeping the profit for yourself (LL is selling this stuff on the marketplace and presumably taking their cut, after having banned the creator)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peewee Musytari Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 You can wonder but you will never know. If the person still has land, then presumabley their account is not totally gone. It could be on hold & still collecting money from sales. Could be lots of scenarios, none of which anyone but LL and the account holder knows which is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinnamon Lohner Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 You need to understand how the SL economy works. Linden dollars have no value to Linden Labs. When an object is sold for linden dollars, those linden dollars go to that person's account. If that account ceases to exist, then the linden dollars disappear from the virtual economy. LL makes their money on premium accounts, tier payments and the sale of sims (which is really just an extension of tier payment plus setup fees). And they make a small amount on fees when dollars convert to linden dollars and when linden dollars are converted to RL dollars. The purchase of virtual goods simply circulates linden dollars amongst the residents. --Cinn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelsea Malibu Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 This would in fact be a civil case and therefore only could be addressed in a civil suit. The details of this are far from explicit in your generalized post but more importantly do not seem applicable as it is not your store. However, should you have an issue that directly affects you, you can file an AR or open a ticket to get it resolved. The ToS states that anything you upload into the system and anything you create, acquire or earn including Linden Dollars, belongs to Linden Labs while you retain the IP rights..however, there is no clear ownership of the created object, only the IP rights to its creation. Again, a rather complex legal issue that could only be defined within the venue of a court. The only law around this pertains to the contract you agreed to when you signed up known as the Terms of Service. Once you enter, you agreed to those terms and are in fact bound by them. Any variation provides a breach of this agreement and as such, getting banned as a method of remedy, as stated within the ToS, is completely acceptable, even if it means loosing the assets you uploaded and created in world. Linden Dollars are technically NOT paid for or sold by Linden Labs. It is a game script that through the exchange, can be sold to other users or bought from other users within a 3rd party system. They have no value other than what another is willing to pay for them and that value is set by the market, not Linden Labs. Yes, it a bunch of legal mambo jumbo but it is in fact, how it is set up for the very reasons in question here. Yes, it is complicated and will be for Second Life and any user created content community where you can sell. I'm just not fun in this one am I...:matte-motes-nerdy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 7, 2011 Author Share Posted June 7, 2011 Cinnamon Lohner wrote: You need to understand how the SL economy works. Linden dollars have no value to Linden Labs. When an object is sold for linden dollars, those linden dollars go to that person's account. If that account ceases to exist, then the linden dollars disappear from the virtual economy. LL makes their money on premium accounts, tier payments and the sale of sims (which is really just an extension of tier payment plus setup fees). And they make a small amount on fees when dollars convert to linden dollars and when linden dollars are converted to RL dollars. The purchase of virtual goods simply circulates linden dollars amongst the residents. --Cinn A little off topic, but this argument (by LL, that is) is a bit flimsy. They sell Linden dollars for money. That means they're worth money. I kind of think that argument is just there so they can pretend they're not accountable if something goes wrong, because most people won't go to court over these microtransactions. I think Chelsea is right when she says a court would have to handle any serious issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persephone Emerald Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 You agree to the Second Life Terms of Service (TOS) when you join SL. The TOS uses a bunch of legal double-speak to claim lindens are not really money & that you don't really own anything you make or buy in SL. If you ( a customer of Linden Labs) later decide that LL is behaving in a fraudulent or illegal manner (which could include expecting it's users to agree to a TOS that is against US Federal or California state law), you can take Linden Labs to court to have a judge decide who's right. This has been done several times by others, & Linden Labs has changed their TOS following each case in efforts to cover themselves legally after the rulings. Most of us would rather play in SL than fight Linden Labs in court over their policies. Some choose to remain ignorant of those policies, while others choose not to worry too much about them, even though they know what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinfulPrince Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Gadget Portal wrote: Cinnamon Lohner wrote: You need to understand how the SL economy works. Linden dollars have no value to Linden Labs. When an object is sold for linden dollars, those linden dollars go to that person's account. If that account ceases to exist, then the linden dollars disappear from the virtual economy. LL makes their money on premium accounts, tier payments and the sale of sims (which is really just an extension of tier payment plus setup fees). And they make a small amount on fees when dollars convert to linden dollars and when linden dollars are converted to RL dollars. The purchase of virtual goods simply circulates linden dollars amongst the residents. --Cinn A little off topic, but this argument (by LL, that is) is a bit flimsy. They sell Linden dollars for money. That means they're worth money. I kind of think that argument is just there so they can pretend they're not accountable if something goes wrong, because most people won't go to court over these microtransactions. I think Chelsea is right when she says a court would have to handle any serious issues. If I read it right it actually is that LL is NOT the seller of Linden dollars. A third party is . LL charges the third party a fee for allowing the circulation. In which case, again, they are not accountable or responsible for Linden dollars. To an extent they are in a similar catagory as the merchandise they purchase. At least for LL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Just file a support ticket to have the land set for sale or auction and ignore the rest of the debate. Soon as the store gets zapped it will all become moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelsea Malibu Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Persephone Emerald wrote: Most of us would rather play in SL than fight Linden Labs in court over their policies. Some choose to remain ignorant of those policies, while others choose not to worry too much about them, even though they know what they are. Exactly! :matte-motes-dont-cry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 Pussycat Catnap wrote: Just file a support ticket to have the land set for sale or auction and ignore the rest of the debate. Soon as the store gets zapped it will all become moot. That's good advice, because the land is a great location. I kind of want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Gadget Portal wrote: Pussycat Catnap wrote: Just file a support ticket to have the land set for sale or auction and ignore the rest of the debate. Soon as the store gets zapped it will all become moot. That's good advice, because the land is a great location. I kind of want it. And the funny thing is, I filed just such a ticket a few days back on one of the places currently listed in the land auctions... I saw two such places recently. I should have filed on the other one too, but was distracted. Besides that second one is a house that's underneath the encroaching house of its neighbor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Dakota Linden Posted June 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 9, 2011 Greetings! If you are aware of a user who is no longer active in Second Life that has products listed for sale through the Second Life Marketplace you may submit a Support Case using the options Marketplace - General Marketplace issues and include the name of the seller and we will be happy to research the issue further. Please understand that due to privacy concerns, we will be unable to reply to you with any information regarding the user account or any action taken, or not taken, regarding your report. We wil reply to you thanking you for the report and letting you know that the information has been forwarded for research. Regards,Dakota Linden-- Linden LabSL Marketplace Customer Supporthttps://marketplace.secondlife.com/http://www.secondlife.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrius Gothly Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 ... and then when you go back by that store a few days later to find it empty, flat and up for auction .. the reply of action taken or not taken will be pretty much moot. *grin* /me waves at Dakota ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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