NextUP and other Gacha Replacements are still Gacha

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Conveyor systems don't promote that, they promote direct purchase in a very convoluted sales mechanism. 

You are still buying a random chance of the item you want appearing next or in the list.

The initial pictured item is little more than a free gift in exchange for the cost of a spin.

This is no different than a one arm bandit that gives you a fun sized candy bar each time you put in a coin, no one is playing for the fun sized candy bar.

 

Conveyor systems ARE 100% gambling.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

29 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

That is not chance, basically you pay for said item you see there or you don't. If your item doesn't come up you don't pay for it. It's not like gacha at all, where you would have to pull time and time again until you got what you wanted. Now if you see the object you want, you pay for it. And then the machine randomly changes the next item available for purchase. So yeah you are wrong, there is no ethical issue here. It's more of an annoying system, if you ask me. If I can't buy what I want, right away and have to wait for a bit for it to pop up. Why buy into it at all? 

Chance is.. a possibility of something happening.  The possibility of the item you want dropping without you having to spend 5000L is taking a chance that the next one will be the one. 

 tell me I am wrong

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Tarina Sewell
and I am not even debating the fact you do not have to partake of this system

[Rowan Amore]

You're wrong.

[Kathlen Onyx]

50 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Conveyor systems ARE 100% gambling.

Not according to LL and their lawyers. *which really is all that matters*

If not forced to LL wouldn't have given a thought about allowing Gacha's to continue.

Where was all this uproar before LL did away with Gatcha's to begin with?

Edited October 5, 2021 by Sam1 Bellisserian
added thought

[Chris Corvinus]

7 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You're wrong.

Have you actually played one of these things?

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Chris Nova said:

Have you actually played one of these things?

Does it matter?  I understand the mechanics of them.  If what shows is not something I want, why would I buy it?  Why would anyone?  The 'fun' of gachas was in the chance of getting that rare on your first try.  That's gone now.  Now, you'd have to buy things you don't want to get to that 6th or 10th thing showing that you do want.  It still predatory.  I'm not arguing that but it is not, by definition, gambling.  

[Chris Corvinus]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Does it matter?  I understand the mechanics of them.  If what shows is not something I want, why would I buy it?  Why would anyone?  The 'fun' of gachas was in the chance of getting that rare on your first try.  That's gone now.  Now, you'd have to buy things you don't want to get to that 6th or 10th thing showing that you do want.  It still predatory.  I'm not arguing that but it is not, by definition, gambling.  

Well, it does matter. You’re looking at the wrong end of the machine. You need to look at the numbers, specifically the top one if the number you want isn’t in the line of other numbers. That’s what people are playing for….not the item that’s currently being shown. It’s still randomized and that randomization of numbers is what makes it gambling because it’s still based on chance.

The new gacha machines are basically a loophole.

[Finite]

15 minutes ago, Chris Nova said:

 

The new gacha machines are basically a loophole.

Call it whatever you like. They were approved by SL before they were ever implemented. I was just playing one that doesnt show you anything but what you are buying at that moment. When you buy it, it switches to another one. The price lowers the longer you wait. No conveyer or anything. You buy it or wait for someone else to buy it to see the next item.

and PS LL never said they banned gacha because of gambling. Gambling is allowed in SL currently in the form of skilled gaming which simulates gambling far more so than gacha ever did.. And if in fact there are people susceptible to gambling habits they are scratching their itches on skilled gaming sims. Not gacha or these new conveyer systems.

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Finite

[Coffee Pancake]

3 minutes ago, Finite said:

They were approved by SL before they were ever implemented.

Anyone, even LL staff, can make mistakes.

[Finite]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Anyone, even LL staff, can make mistakes.

Ya I understand that but I just feel anti-gambling people here on the forums are targeting the wrong thing when there's something far worse that's been allowed since like 2007... And because of this I question whether it is truly about gambling and not because some people can't get the thing they wanted in the manner they want said thing. Again I say gambling and gimmicky sales aren't even one of the Ten. Envy is twice. Doesn't really makes sense to question the morality of something you're grandstanding against when the manner and reason of which you are doing it is etched in stone immoral.

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Finite

[Rowan Amore]

31 minutes ago, Chris Nova said:

Well, it does matter. You’re looking at the wrong end of the machine. You need to look at the numbers, specifically the top one if the number you want isn’t in the line of other numbers. That’s what people are playing for….not the item that’s currently being shown. It’s still randomized and that randomization of numbers is what makes it gambling because it’s still based on chance.

The new gacha machines are basically a loophole.

What you purchase is not random or unknown.  That is ALL that matters to LL.  What any of us think it is doesn't much matter.  LL has said these fall within their rules.  I'm sure their lawyers are more aware of what falls into gambling than we are.  

If what you really want isn't next in line, are you willing to pay for all those known items in order to get it?  There is no chance of you paying for something unknown.

LL can't regulate stupidity.  There is always the chance of people falling for this scheme.

[Blaise Glendevon]

If the items are still No Copy/Yes Transfer the best part of the gacha is still in place - trades and barters.

[Coffee Pancake]

12 minutes ago, Finite said:

Ya I understand that but I just feel anti-gambling people here on the forums are targeting the wrong thing when there's something far worse that's been allowed since like 2007... And because of this I question whether it is truly about gambling and not because some people can't get the thing they wanted in the manner they want said thing. Again I say gambling and gimmicky sales aren't even one of the Ten. Envy is twice. Doesn't really makes sense to question the morality of something you're grandstanding against when the manner and reason of which you are doing it is etched in stone immoral.

 

This isn't "anti- gambling", SL has "skill gaming regions" and I'm not calling for anyone to hand in their no devil machines (or whatever they are called now). 

This is a loot box / gacha sales mechanic with an extra step to dodge the letter of the rules set down by LL, available to all on the main grid.

The only difference between the new system and the banned "gacha" system is the randomness comes after you receive a purchase, not before.  In effect adding a buy-in mechanic.

For all intents and purposes it is the exact same system without the secondary market .. which actually makes it worse.

Simple example, you are after an outfit in a conveyor machine. The entire outfit will not fit / appear all at once in the list of known items. To get the outfit you must roll random items and are committed to buying all the junk that's now racked up in it's way and can't turn to the secondary market to plug the gaps.

This is still gacha. This is still predatory. This is even more anti consumer.

[Finite]

17 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

This isn't "anti- gambling", SL has "skill gaming regions" and I'm not calling for anyone to hand in their no devil machines (or whatever they are called now). 

This is a loot box / gacha sales mechanic with an extra step to dodge the letter of the rules set down by LL, available to all on the main grid.

The only difference between the new system and the banned "gacha" system is the randomness comes after you receive a purchase, not before.  In effect adding a buy-in mechanic.

For all intents and purposes it is the exact same system without the secondary market .. which actually makes it worse.

Simple example, you are after an outfit in a conveyor machine. The entire outfit will not fit / appear all at once in the list of known items. To get the outfit you must roll random items and are committed to buying all the junk that's now racked up in it's way and can't turn to the secondary market to plug the gaps.

This is still gacha. This is still predatory. This is even more anti consumer.

Yes but also like gacha you can walk away or if you absolutely want it then buy it 2nd hand off the MP. The only issue at play here is that you desire the item but don't want to play the game or wait in line to get said item. And now we need another soapbox here in the forums to discuss it because of it. And why cant you turn to the secondary market in this scenario? Are they no transfer? If so why are you even playing it? Seems the thing gives off plenty of vibes not to play it.  And I enjoyed playing gacha, the scenario you are describing doesn't seem like something I would play regardless of how nice it looks. Especially if I can't even give extras I have to friends or place in my MP store.

 

PS> Off topic but did you see this at Neo?

Space Bunny

Edited October 5, 2021 by Finite

[Coffee Pancake]

5 minutes ago, Finite said:

Yes but also like gacha you can walk away 

If that was the solution, and it worked, this entire discussion would have never come up and nothing would have been banned.

[Finite]

8 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

If that was the solution, and it worked, this entire discussion would have never come up and nothing would have been banned.

This is assuming the ban was because of predatory tactics and anti-consumerism and not because of a "changing regulatory climate".

And even with anti-consumerism as a base for argument there is far better targets than gacha or this conveyer system ongoing in SL.

Like body makers who won't give rigs to clothes makers unless they are "established" meaning they have to use only premade mesh in their stores or generically rigged clothing for years before being given access to rigs.

Or stores that bully other stores at events because they sell their original mesh for cheaper than other brands sell their premade mesh.

This seems far more anti-consumer to me.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Finite

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, Finite said:

This is assuming the ban was because of predatory tactics and anti-consumerism and not because of a "changing regulatory climate".

Conveyors wont be immune to the "changing regulatory climate" either. If it's trying to avoid getting caught in the loot box backlash .. this is a loot box with a buy in, just like a regular loot box .. you have to buy.

The loot box may contain half a dozen common items, but the rare, at the end, is what people are after.

No different from a pack of magic cards, all but the last one are filler.

[Silent Mistwalker]

Everybody sing with me now.

Oh lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz.
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends.
So oh lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz.

Oh lord won't you buy me a color TV.
Dialing for dollars is trying to find me.
I wait for delivery each day until 3.
So oh lord won't you buy me a color TV.

Oh lord won't you buy me a night on the town.
I'm counting on you lord, please don't let me down.
Prove that you love me and buy the next round.
Oh lord won't you buy me a night on the town.

Oh lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends.
So oh lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz.

*giggles*

[Finite]

26 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

 

No different from a pack of magic cards, all but the last one are filler.

Isn't MTG cards PG13? Oo..

In looking up the reasoning in the changing regulation is because of it's (loot-boxes) similarities to gambling AND the fact the games involved are also played by children. They also seem to take issue with items that give you advantage in said games and not so much with items that are just aesthetic. They only point to anti-consumerism on the issue that they did not list the odds of getting whatever the desired item is. This is something I actually felt SL should have already required for gacha even before the ban and don't understand why it was never required. Even a deck of cards, whether baseball cards or MTG cards will list the odds of getting specific "rares" or for baseball or sports cards in general they call them "inserts". Both of which are perfectly legal for even kids to buy.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Finite

[Chris Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

What you purchase is not random or unknown.  That is ALL that matters to LL.  What any of us think it is doesn't much matter.  LL has said these fall within their rules.  I'm sure their lawyers are more aware of what falls into gambling than we are.  

If what you really want isn't next in line, are you willing to pay for all those known items in order to get it?  There is no chance of you paying for something unknown.

LL can't regulate stupidity.  There is always the chance of people falling for this scheme.

Nobody plays a gacha or conveyor machine for the thing they can see. People play them for the whole set or for whatever item they want. And both are randomized. A gachas chance mechanics are in the randomization of numbers, and the lawyers and lindens know that...hence the loophole and why conveyor gachas now exist.

[Coffee Pancake]

3 minutes ago, Finite said:

Isn't MTG cards PG13? Oo..

In looking up the reasoning in the changing regulation is because of it's (loot-boxes) similarities to gambling AND the fact the games involved are also played by children. They also seem to take issue with items that give you advantage in said games and not so much with items that are just aesthetic. They only point to anti-consumerism on the issue that they did not list the odds of getting whatever the desired item is. This is something I actually felt SL should have already required for gacha even before the ban and don't understand why it was never required. Even a deck of cards, whether baseball cards or MTG cards will list the odds of getting specific "rares" or for baseball or sports cards in general they call them "inserts".

MTG cards are in the firing line too.

You want to win opening packs (because maybe you need the best cards to play the game) .. you buy them by the booster box and crack packs, if you're serious, hundreds of packs. This is one hell of a rabbit hole wrapped in a card game for kids.

It's gotten to the point it's seen by many as a better investment to horde sealed booster boxes, and sit on them.

Papa Hasbro is running the presses as fast as he can to make as much money as possible before the axe falls.

[Finite]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

MTG cards are in the firing line too.

You want to win opening packs (because maybe you need the best cards to play the game) .. you buy them by the booster box and crack packs, if you're serious, hundreds of packs. This is one hell of a rabbit hole wrapped in a card game for kids.

It's gotten to the point it's seen by many as a better investment to horde sealed booster boxes, and sit on them.

Papa Hasbro is running the presses as fast as he can to make as much money as possible before the axe falls.

Ya I can certainly see that. I just think lawmakers are having trouble finding away to regulate such things without indirectly effecting other things such as trading cards and what not. Hence why they already failed at passing regulation in 2018. And why lawmakers are simply requesting that Euro policies be applied in US markets and not putting their signatures on any actual laws.

[Chris Corvinus]

1 hour ago, Finite said:

I was just playing one that doesnt show you anything but what you are buying at that moment. When you buy it, it switches to another one.

Thats the gacha randomization mechanic thats supposed to be banned but because you can "see what you buy", its now legal. Thats a loophole.

[Marianne Little]

I have not seen many of the new machines. I hope they turn out to be unpopular, because I think they are worse than the old Gacha. Worse for the customer.

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I have not seen many of the new machines. I hope they turn out to be unpopular, because I think they are worse than the old Gacha. Worse for the customer.

I wont play them, but I've friends who've been tempted by the known list showing a toe, and ended up going all in feeling they have half the set easy, why not try for the set. Sunk cost fallacy in action.