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Understanding Ban-lines


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16 hours ago, Female Winslet said:

[...] Bellisseria was opened without any restrictions. And then the restrictions were added after. The same could be done on the rest of mainland. In fact, some might remember the old days when banlines reached up to the max build height of 4096m. Nowadays they only go above 50m above ground level. That was a massive improvement introduced later. 

It may be open to market research, but my guess is that they'd lose more Mainland business than they'd gain at this point. Bellisseria is a great illustration of how Mainland might have been, but while it's true that the orb & whitelist ban restrictions came to Bellisseria after it first opened, that all came quite early in its expansion, before many orb aficionados could establish full entitlement. Also, at that point, Bellisseria was under such great demand—further heightened by the new neighbor-friendly landownership policies—that it could easily absorb a few folks returning to Mainland for their augmented "privacy" role-play.

Mainland itself is a very different situation now, with ancient orb-worship an entrenched religion of believers in the god-given property rights of pixels. If intrusive parcel and script settings were no longer available on Mainland, of course Estates could fill the demand, but I'd fear more than a few folks would just quit SL land ownership altogether, out of spite.

On the other hand, if the Lab can convince itself that, net-net, more tier will get paid with a less explorer-hostile Mainland and more of the "privacy" market moved to Estates, they simply must do that.

Two tangents:

  1. I don't recall the whitelist banline ever being other than 50m Above Ground Level. I vaguely recall the explicit "blacklist" bans extending upwards from 768 to 4096m when the build height was raised, but I'm not real sure about that history.
  2. It's possible that further development enabled by the cloud migration could make it much less expensive to run sparsely-populated regions. No idea where that may stand on the priority list for server development.
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On 9/21/2021 at 10:46 AM, Qie Niangao said:

Mainland itself is a very different situation now, with ancient orb-worship an entrenched religion of believers in the god-given property rights of pixels. If intrusive parcel and script settings were no longer available on Mainland, of course Estates could fill the demand, but I'd fear more than a few folks would just quit SL land ownership altogether, out of spite.

The same people with the same "me me me" attitudes complained about the restrictions on Bellisseria. Then they wrote posts in the forums thanking LL for those same restrictions hen they realized the situation benefited them. If past is prologue, that seems to bode well . . . but of course there's uncertainty and you could be right and I could be wrong.

On 9/21/2021 at 10:46 AM, Qie Niangao said:
  1. I don't recall the whitelist banline ever being other than 50m Above Ground Level. I vaguely recall the explicit "blacklist" bans extending upwards from 768 to 4096m when the build height was raised, but I'm not real sure about that history.

When I created my first account in July 2006, it was at 4096. I became a good customer of Cubey Terra's planes and a frequent flyer at Abbott's Aerodrome back when it was the main center of SL aviation. Then, alas, I gave up. It was just too problematic that no matter how high I flew or no matter where I went, I'd run into the ban lines. 

Past is prologue . . . and now we have the same issue, but it's with orbs in place of ban lines. Even worse because keeping someone off your land is one thing. Teleporting my avatar without my permission is something else. What happened to this whole issue of people having the right to control what they pay for? I pay a few hundred per month and I don't get to control my own avatar?

 

On 9/21/2021 at 10:46 AM, Qie Niangao said:
  1. It's possible that further development enabled by the cloud migration could make it much less expensive to run sparsely-populated regions. No idea where that may stand on the priority list for server development.

Well, the above is actually #2 on your list, but when I quoted it, the forum system changed the number. Just wanted to say that your point seems logical. After all, wasn't cost cutting the whole point of the move? But even so, the cost can't be zero for those abandoned regions. And zero does seem to be the income from them.

 

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On 9/21/2021 at 3:46 PM, Qie Niangao said:

It may be open to market research, but my guess is that they'd lose more Mainland business than they'd gain at this point. Bellisseria is a great illustration of how Mainland might have been, but while it's true that the orb & whitelist ban restrictions came to Bellisseria after it first opened, that all came quite early in its expansion, before many orb aficionados could establish full entitlement. Also, at that point, Bellisseria was under such great demand—further heightened by the new neighbor-friendly landownership policies—that it could easily absorb a few folks returning to Mainland for their augmented "privacy" role-play.

Mainland itself is a very different situation now, with ancient orb-worship an entrenched religion of believers in the god-given property rights of pixels. If intrusive parcel and script settings were no longer available on Mainland, of course Estates could fill the demand, but I'd fear more than a few folks would just quit SL land ownership altogether, out of spite.

On the other hand, if the Lab can convince itself that, net-net, more tier will get paid with a less explorer-hostile Mainland and more of the "privacy" market moved to Estates, they simply must do that.

 

When considering land with protected water access around the volcano regions and the Linden Village, which is prone to occasional and in some cases long term blockages along the protected waterways I would say those parcels with obstructive security settings I can count on one hand.

Infact only two examples I can think of.

One parcel 4m wide extending maybe 28m into the terraformed waterway creating a wall across half the route between Mare Secondus and the Sea of Fables, that has been there a long time and can't be excused as any legitimate protection of anything of value. It is purely there to grief traffic fortunately marked for as long as I have known it by a crashed vehicle stuck in to it. I am sure the owners must get a lot of pleasure from all the complaints they receive from passing travellers ensnared in their banline. 

The other is in a wider river running along between the Brenner dinosaur and Mare Secondus. A parcel in the middle of the waterway against a region crossing  with security settings that break and eject travellers trying to use the waterway. It is passable using tools available, but only for the prepared traveller that knows it is there and going no faster than rowboat speed. The waterway is effectively off limits for travellers and the forty or so other landowners along the same route, all because of one land owner.

The vast majority of landowners along protected routes are considerate to the needs of travellers, that is why they paid a premium for their land in the first place.

But, it only takes one person along a river system to be an ass to cause an obstruction that strips the land you have paid for of its value. In the first case, the parcel only needs to be adfarm sized to do that.

It doesn't seem like the Lindens need new rules to improve things and bring back confidence for landowners to buy along such routes, they just need to enforce their policies like they did in the past, selectively for parcels along protected routes to increase engagement, the attraction and value of alot of mainland where the value is dependent on the goodwill of others along that route. If they were to do this, the pressure on land around Nautilus waterways might be relieved somewhat with more interest and investment in land adjacent to protected routes spreading around the other continents. 

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On 9/21/2021 at 2:37 PM, Ceka Cianci said:

Ban lines are fun to bounce on top of.. They are the trampolines of SL.. hehehe

 

I somehow managed after one region crossings to ride a boat up the side of one persons banline and it bounced across the top. The boat poofed from under me as I was bouncing across the top leaving me trampolining. Despite many attempts, I have not been able to replicate that since.

Edited by Aethelwine
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I pay for a parcel and I pay for my membership to get a home at Bellisseria. I will never, no matter how much I read posts about it, understand this hysteria surrounding ownership in SL. Me and my partner even had three sims for a couple of years and the times I've faced bad behavior from visiting avatars can be counted on one hand. We banned griefers for a bit and told them they were welcome back in a couple of days when they had calmed down. Never had anyone come back and grief again.

Our present mainland parcel is next to a sandbox and sometimes someone wanders in to look around. Always polite and friendly. We have a private platform up in the air, and if someone is curious enough I suppose I wouldn't exactly enjoy it, but I find that so much easier to live with than the ban lines and orbs. And the hysteria: "It's MINE!!  Don't touch it! Dont' look at it!!"

I realize there is absolutely nothing I can do about it except rant a bit. It's not horrible, just so very much not nice. What is it that makes people buy a place just for the pleasure of claiming it is theirs? Even several 1000 meters of the air above their land.

I kinda imagine them with high hedges, angry dogs and windows always covered with blinds RL.  

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Your "personal freedoms," or rather, personal entitlements, end at my property line. Clear boundaries make for great neighbors and guests. That said, I don't care for orbs or ban lines, and I'm tolerant of curious randos or people with old LMs, etc.

I've owned venues (twice) and sims before. There was one griefing incident in ALL of that time which included hundreds of scheduled events. Besides that incident, there were a couple times someone was a monster, but as we're all adults, I let it work itself out without having to ban anyone. 

It would be really cool if people would be more relaxed but I can't tell other people what to do with their own land, and I wouldn't want to. 

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6 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

I somehow managed after one region crossings to ride a boat up the side of one persons banline and it bounced across the top. The boat poofed from under me as I was bouncing across the top leaving me trampolining. Despite many attempts, I have not been able to replicate that since.

I found out about it by accident myself..

I was flying around, not in a plane or anything, but just flying.. I landed on a friends land that had their ban lines up in a certain part of their sim.. I didn't even know they actually had a cover on them  until then either.. I decided to drop down and land on it and was bouncing like on a trampoline..

I showed some other friends and they got a kick out of it.. hehehehe

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On 9/19/2021 at 2:07 AM, StrongZer0 said:

Granted, if you have a parcel on the ground, ban-lines are effective; ugly as they are.

Unless the creeper flies up to 85 meters and drops in. Or cams in and right click/sits on your furniture.

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On 9/23/2021 at 6:09 AM, Wilma Philbin said:

What is it that makes people buy a place just for the pleasure of claiming it is theirs?

I realize that's a rhetorical question, so it doesn't really need a response. Still ... people bring all sorts of personal and cultural expectations with them as they enter SL. City-dwellers learn to be street smart and wary of strangers. People who live in more rural areas may feel comfortable leaving the front door unlocked but have their own reasons for valuing solitude.  Some people live in parts of RL where surveillance is normal and obtrusive; others rarely see as much as a CCTV traffic cam on a street corner.  And then people have varying personal levels of trust or paranoia. I find it hard to imagine a model for land management that everyone would be completely comfortable with.

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On 9/23/2021 at 7:09 AM, Wilma Philbin said:

I will never, no matter how much I read posts about it, understand this hysteria surrounding ownership in SL.

I don't know or care about other people's reasons, but for me it's not about ownership it's about privacy. When I'm at home in SL I don't want to be pestered by uninvited guests dropping in uninvited. I don't care why they want to come in, I don't want to talk to them. I don't want to explain why I don't want to talk to them and I really don't want to listen to them try to explain how much I should want to talk to them. 

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On 9/24/2021 at 10:16 PM, Lyssa Greymoon said:

I don't know or care about other people's reasons, but for me it's not about ownership it's about privacy. When I'm at home in SL I don't want to be pestered by uninvited guests dropping in uninvited. I don't care why they want to come in, I don't want to talk to them. I don't want to explain why I don't want to talk to them and I really don't want to listen to them try to explain how much I should want to talk to them. 

Under those circumstances I find block and ban work perfectly well if people won't respond to a polite request that they leave (and I'm rarely so busy that I don't have the time to chat pleasantly for a couple of minutes, which is generally all they want).

And when I'm not online, or not at home, it's not an issue.

Moreover, how often does it actually happen?  I have uninvited people drop in on me when I'm at home maybe two or three of times a year, if that, on average.   Once rather more -- that place had previously been left open build for ages, with predictable results for the first few months, at least -- but it was no big deal.    

If they won't go when I ask, then I make them go, ban them, block them, forget them and get on with my life.

It's people IMing me when I don't want to talk that's the problem, not people appearing in my tower or my skybox.

Edited by Innula Zenovka
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Im real life, the majority of us probably come into our houses, close and lock the doors and windows, and eventually drop into bed, secure in the knowledge that the place is reasonably secure fron intruders.

In Second Life, we might seek to reproduce the same feelings of security. It doesn't quite work the same, unfortunately, and that can be a bit of a shock to find out. Firstly, unless you are incredibly stupid, nothing can be stolen. Secondly, unless you are there at the time, you really can't be upset by an intruder; maybe just a little annoyed, if you ever get to find out. So what? How can that possibly affect you? 

I am, however, very sensitive to the psychological effects that RL burglariies cause. The sense of personal invasion is very real - even when the financial loss is small, or even nothing. There is no reason to suspect that the same injury does not occur in the pixel world, especially to people who regard SL as a an extension to their RL, and not just "a game".

 

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1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Moreover, how often does it actually happen?

Never.

 

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

And when I'm not online, or not at home, it's not an issue.

If LL offered an option to disable banlines when no member of the group was present, I’d use it. Because IDGAF when I’m not there. It might end up being the same as a zero second security orb when someone logged back in, but them’s the breaks.

in my case I’m not too concerned about the banlines interfering with anyone’s day. I have two parcels, neither is on a Linden right of way. One is the only occupied parcel in the whole region, so if someone gets hung up in the banlines there, they kinda had it coming.

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48 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

If LL offered an option to disable banlines when no member of the group was present, I’d use it. Because IDGAF when I’m not there.

If there were a way for scripts to change parcel access—and the visibility option while we're at it—that would be a huge win. It would be even better if, as you suggest, there were a way to set it to do that without a script. And better still if that were the default.

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