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40 minutes ago, roseelvira said:

If someone came in w covi not able to breath/ not able to talk, be able to tell them why not vaxed due to medical situation

So, your argument is that someone who was told by their doctor not to be vaccinated is not going to have any medical information?

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1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

So, your argument is that someone who was told by their doctor not to be vaccinated is not going to have any medical information?

Not if they can't breath or talk.is what she said.

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1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Not if they can't breath or talk.is what she said.

And they apparently can't write either; nor do they have relatives. Meanwhile, being under a doctor's care and knowing that they are immunocompromised, they have ignored the symptoms of a widely-circulating disease until they can barely breathe.

Theresa Tennyson nods and smiles.

 

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9 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And they apparently can't write either; nor do they have relatives. Meanwhile, being under a doctor's care and knowing that they are immunocompromised, they have ignored the symptoms of a widely-circulating disease until they can barely breathe.

Theresa Tennyson nods and smiles.

 

Well, in that case, of course, let them die.

Rowan just looks at you in confusion and shakes her head.

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16 hours ago, roseelvira said:

Their generalization" The unvaxed " has created a very negative view and huge lack of trust of the anchor/s, tv show host/s & famous who stated " If you're not vaxed  you should not be treated.

Luckily hospitals are not going to pay attention to them (the TV show hosts), so I wouldn't worry too much 🙂

You always get some opinions 4U people who say "Oh, we shouldn't treat those who ever smoked or took drugs, or who are overweight, they brought it on themselves!" Fortunately hospital staff are busy trying to save everyone who comes in, not sitting around deciding who's most deserving of treatment...

Edited by Rat Luv
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4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Well, in that case, of course, let them die.

Rowan just looks at you in confusion and shakes her head.

This whole argument is over unicorns. People aren't criticizing people who aren't vaccinated because they can't be. There are relatively few of those people, and they'd be the ones who'd have the most to lose because other people aren't vaccinated.

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Hi Theresa,

I have seen first-hand acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) crisis and no a person cannot write as they cannot breathe.

 It is something i pray never to happen to any ones loved one. 

 We were /are /still blessed he survived. And yes, i am now in tears as i post this.

I was asked a question.  I also pointed out another possible situation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by roseelvira
in tears and wording and spelling and upset
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25 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

So, your argument is that someone who was told by their doctor not to be vaccinated is not going to have any medical information?

You brought it up as an argument and criticism, somehow blaming them if they contracted Covid and were unable to vocalize their reason for being unvaccinated to the ER doctors.  As if it should matter.

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25 minutes ago, Rat Luv said:

Luckily hospitals are not going to pay attention to them (the TV show hosts), so I wouldn't worry too much 🙂

You always get some opinions 4U people who say "Oh, we shouldn't treat those who ever smoked or took drugs, or who are overweight, they brought it on themselves!" Fortunately hospital staff are busy trying to save everyone who comes in, not sitting around deciding who's most deserving of treatment...

Unfortunately it's more serious than a TV personality mouthing off, the discussion over whether the unvaccinated should be a lower priority for health care:

https://www.ncpolicywatch.com/2021/08/12/should-the-unvaccinated-be-a-lower-priority-for-health-care/

Trish Zornio is a scientist and lecturer in behavioral neuroscience and research methodology at the University of Colorado Denver. She has worked for some of the nation’s top universities and hospitals and has focused her personal efforts on enhancing the intersection of science and policy, as well as women in STEM.

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I haven't checked out all the links...but might be an insightful read on what's going on in the deeply hit South:

"This article has been updated with a response from the Tennessee Department of Health. 

 Across the South, hospital systems are in distress, and many administration officials have said facilities will soon have to start triaging scarce healthcare resources based on a patient's likelihood of survival. 

This has led some healthcare officials to consider whether vaccination status ought to be a factor when deciding who gets care and who doesn't when hospitals are operating under so much strain. 

The Dallas Morning News published an internal memo, circulated among Dallas physicians, that raised the question of whether a person's vaccination status should figure into a patient's chances of survival, and by extension, treatment access.  

In Alabama, one doctor made the decision to no longer treat unvaccinated patients, explaining to the Birmingham News, "If they asked why, I told them COVID is a miserable way to die and I can’t watch them die like that."

And while social media commentary is hardly a scientific poll, scroll through the comment sections that follow articles about scarce hospital capacity, and it becomes clear that some Americans are wondering: Why should precious lifesaving resources go to those who refuse to protect themselves against COVID-19?

So, what does a person's vaccination status mean for individuals severely ill?" 

Conclusion:

"For now, hospitals in the South will likely continue to allocate scarce resources in order to treat patients who are unvaccinated. But the question of whether it is fair or ethical to do so is being debated".

https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/local/coronavirus/2021/08/25/hospitals-refuse-unvaccinated-covid-patients-ethics/8210503002/

Edited by Luna Bliss
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26 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

This whole argument is over unicorns. People aren't criticizing people who aren't vaccinated because they can't be. There are relatively few of those people, and they'd be the ones who'd have the most to lose because other people aren't vaccinated.

Agree.

I have not seen anybody discuss whether people should be denied treatment if they can't be vaccinated due to circumstances beyond their control.

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37 minutes ago, Rat Luv said:

Luckily hospitals are not going to pay attention to them (the TV show hosts), so I wouldn't worry too much 🙂

You always get some opinions 4U people who say "Oh, we shouldn't treat those who ever smoked or took drugs, or who are overweight, they brought it on themselves!" Fortunately hospital staff are busy trying to save everyone who comes in, not sitting around deciding who's most deserving of treatment...

I'd be more worried about judges who try to court order hospitals to treat patients with Ivermectin.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/judge-orders-ohio-hospital-treat-covid-patient-ivermectin-n1278267

 

https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2021/09/06/judge-reverses-order-forcing-hospital-to-give-ivermectin-to-covid-19-patient/

Edited by Silent Mistwalker
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I think the answer should be more resources and better management of healthcare services. Even before Covid, there were some parts of the UK that had massive waiting lists and people who couldn't get appointments. 

I get fed up with all this anti-vax stuff too (the area I live in has been hit by stupid cartoon stickers and 'warnings' all over the bus stops recently) but I don't think these people deserve to be left to die untreated, no matter how much they 😡 me.

(I am just talking about the conspiracists/political ones, not people who've been advised not to take it by their doctors).

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22 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

She reported on absolute numbers. Why should she report on every other factor just because you deem it necessary for credibility?

Where did I say she would report on every other factor? Show me.

It's never been more important to argue data, not desire. There's plenty of data to show that the US response to Covid-19 is abysmal, some of that in comparison to Flu-1918. Still, the comparison is too complex to be served well by splashing absolute death numbers across front pages, as happened yesterday. CNN couched the sensationalism of their headline by noting early in the article that Flu-1918 was proportionally 3x worse than Covid-2019. They also pointed out that medical science progressed 100 years between the pandemics.

What they did not point out is that the US currently spends 18% of its GDP on health care, compared to 2.5% in 1918. They also didn't point out that other countries have very different comparisons, as I described for India. There's no shortage of proportional and/or current comparisons one can use to illuminate the issue.

Below is today's Covid-19 data for India and the US. If you recall, back in April/May, India's second wave of Covid-19 was a tragedy, reverberating around the world. If you multiply today's US numbers by 4.2 to scale to India's population, you'll see that we are, at this very moment, losing twice as many people to Covid each day as India did during their peak.

Tragedy ain't what it used to be?

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4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

 Say there is one bed left in a hospital and you must choose between an unvaxxed person who caught Covid vs one who took the vaccine and is having a non-Covid emergency?  Which one would you allow to have that one remaining bed in the hospital?

the triage has always been that it is the person who has the most urgent need

to change triage to the person who brought or never brought the need on themselves is a very slippery slope

for example: pick between a person who chose to never take the vaccine and a person who is vaccinated but chose to smoke cigarettes. Both of them need the bed urgently

another example: pick between a person who has had the vaccine, doesn't smoke but has medical issues due to poor diet choices,  and a vaccinated smoker who has made good diet choices. Both need the bed urgently

this kind of choice moves triaging from medical needs to triaging morality, and I am not in favour of it

 

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22 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

the triage has always been that it is the person who has the most urgent need

to change triage to the person who brought or never brought the need on themselves is a very slippery slope

for example: pick between a person who chose to never take the vaccine and a person who is vaccinated but chose to smoke cigarettes. Both of them need the bed urgently

another example: pick between a person who has had the vaccine, doesn't smoke but has medical issues due to poor diet choices,  and a vaccinated smoker who has made good diet choices. Both need the bed urgently

this kind of choice moves triaging from medical needs to triaging morality, and I am not in favour of it

 

These scenarios also have little to do with how someone will present at the hospital. They won't be coming in with a scarlet "C19" on their forehead; they'll be coming in with a set of symptoms that could be COVID-19 related or could be some entirely different problem. The first thing that's going to happen at the hospital is to treat the symptoms, whatever is causing them. Then the care will become more specific once they figure out what the underlying problem is.

And the idea that whether someone will or won't be cared for by their verbal answer to a question, especially one that the average person will know how to answer to "win"? Not the way it works.

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18 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

These scenarios also have little to do with how someone will present at the hospital. They won't be coming in with a scarlet "C19" on their forehead; they'll be coming in with a set of symptoms that could be COVID-19 related or could be some entirely different problem. The first thing that's going to happen at the hospital is to treat the symptoms, whatever is causing them. Then the care will become more specific once they figure out what the underlying problem is.

 

what is being introduced in some areas where there are shortages of beds is that the health providers can base their bed allocation on who is more likely to survive

two people have covid. One is vaccinated, the other isn't. It is determined that they both need an ICU bed. There is only one bed. The decision then is who of the two is more likely to survive

this is a complete reversal. The person least likely to survive is no longer seen as the person with the most need

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3 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

 

what is being introduced in some areas where there are shortages of beds is that the health providers can base their bed allocation on who is more likely to survive

two people have covid. One is vaccinated, the other isn't. It is determined that they both need an ICU bed. There is only one bed. The decision then is who of the two is more likely to survive

this is a complete reversal. The person least likely to survive is no longer seen as the person with the most need

It's a reversal of the situation that we who live in modern developed countries are used to, but not to the idea of "triage" by any means. Triage was originally what military doctors did, and the three ("tri") categories were: 1) those who would live without medical care, 2) those who would probably die even with medical care, and 3) those who would survive only if given medical care.

We've just gotten used to the idea that there's "nothing doctors can't fix," and they'll always have the resources necessary to fix everything. In other place, times and situations that hasn't been the case.

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Quote

Although we use the term “triage” to apply to battle wounded and usually date it from the Civil War, there is no evidence that the term was ever used during that war.  The term is in none of the many surgical manuals of the time or in the Medical and Surgical History of the War of the Rebellion. None of the many published letters and diaries of surgeons and nurses from the Civil War ever used the word. But although the term “triage” is not used, there was clearly some sorting being done. At the First Battle of Bull Run, Union Surgeon C.C. Gray stated “We were obliged to select some for immediate removal as it seemed possible to save them by treatment and shelter.” Union Assistant Surgeon John H. Brinton, serving in the west at Fort Henry and Fort Donelson in early 1862, described some sorting of the wounded while under fire, with the less gravely wounded being removed to the rear. Cornelia Hancock states at Gettysburg that the surgeons left behind “began the paralyzing task of sorting the dead and dying from those whose lives might be saved.”

Confederate Surgeon J. J. Chisolm discussed the role of the surgeon, stating that all of the wounded must undergo a thorough exam. Chisolm also described the duties of the assistant surgeon on the battlefield stating that he must look at all wounds, do hasty dressings, and place men on the litter, but not do surgery. He further stated that at the field hospital the wounded were not treated in the order in which they arrive but that the more severely wounded would always receive the earliest attention.

The term “triage” is derived from the French word “trier” meaning “to sort” and was initially used for sorting food products such as coffee. Its first known medical use was in World War I, when the French used it to apply to the sorting of casualties. It was rapidly adopted by the British who assumed only three levels of classification: minimally wounded; seriously wounded but treatable; and mortally wounded.  Triage stayed in the international medical lexicon and is still widely used.

https://www.civilwarmed.org/surgeons-call/triage/

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5 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

If you multiply today's US numbers by 4.2 to scale to India's population, you'll see that we are, at this very moment, losing twice as many people to Covid each day as India did during their peak.

To be fair, India's numbers are only the ones reported.. which are unlikely to reflect what actually happened in areas with little or no medical services. Research on this is only as good as the raw data collected (if it's collected). A lot of developing/wide income disparity countries have people who don't officially exist and will not come forward for treatment or vaccine. We'll probably never know those numbers. 😟

Not to say it isn't terribly sad what is happening in the US. I truly hope more get vaccinated if they possibly can.

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