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13 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:
On 9/18/2021 at 9:24 AM, Luna Bliss said:

Nobody has time to do it correctly though, so I'm afraid we have to depend on those who do and present results to us.

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It seems you're unaware of how deep we need to go and how much time we need to spend these days to fully understand something? I'm afraid I don't have the time or inclination to get a degree in biology and specialize in virology so that I can truly understand Covid.  So, my only choice is to trust those who actually spent the time studying.  That's why I love science writers who did the work studying science and use their writing skills in an attempt to relay the information as clearly as possible to us laypeople. And of course, it needs to be a science writer or other aggregator without an agenda (or at least not too strong of one).

Of course it's fun to study a bit on my own to understand science better, but I always keep in mind I'm just a layperson who is likely missing out on critical factors due to my lack of education.

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And I think this brings us to the heart of the problem regarding knowledge today.  Knowledge has increased to such a degree that nobody can specialize in everything....and so we have to trust in those who do specialize.

This is scary to many, leaving them confused and outside of the realms of much knowledge. And lacking trust in educated people or those they demonize as 'elites' it's easier to make up their own theories. Enter QAnon, many YouTube videos, and the like...

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4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

And I think this brings us to the heart of the problem regarding knowledge today.  Knowledge has increased to such a degree that nobody can specialize in everything....and so we have to trust in those who do specialize.

This is scary to many, leaving them confused and outside of the realms of much knowledge. And lacking trust in educated people or those they demonize as 'elites' it's easier to make up their own theories. Enter QAnon, many YouTube videos, and the like...

I very much disagree with these statements. I grew up before the internet. We have the internet now. Information is so abundantly available, to be ignorant is a choice at this point. Maybe it's just me that i don't believe anything at face value, or because someone i happen to like said it. I don't mean to take this in a political direction, but what you said is a politician's wet dream. "I won't research it, i'll believe it because a person in a class said it.". You can do your own research. Times have never been better/easier to do your own research. 

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1 minute ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

You can do your own research. Times have never been better/easier to do your own research. 

Yes .. and look where that's gotten us.

Access to information doesn't make someone well read or knowledgeable, it just makes them prone to finding sources that summarize in line with their preconceived biases. 

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3 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Then that is not research, thats looking for confirmation. Two very different things.

Which has become the meaning of the word "research" outside the academia or specialty fields.

In common use "do your own research" literally means "google something that agrees with you" probably for "internet points" / "facebook clout".

 

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17 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:
28 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

And I think this brings us to the heart of the problem regarding knowledge today.  Knowledge has increased to such a degree that nobody can specialize in everything....and so we have to trust in those who do specialize.

This is scary to many, leaving them confused and outside of the realms of much knowledge. And lacking trust in educated people or those they demonize as 'elites' it's easier to make up their own theories. Enter QAnon, many YouTube videos, and the like...

I very much disagree with these statements. I grew up before the internet. We have the internet now. Information is so abundantly available, to be ignorant is a choice at this point. Maybe it's just me that i don't believe anything at face value, or because someone i happen to like said it. I don't mean to take this in a political direction, but what you said is a politician's wet dream. "I won't research it, i'll believe it because a person in a class said it.". You can do your own research. Times have never been better/easier to do your own research. 

Oh for sure, so much knowledge is available due to the internet, and I often take advantage of it to increase understanding. But this is very different from spending close to a decade getting an undergraduate degree plus a PhD in a specific field, and then doing RL research. There's no way I'm going to do all of that to fully understand something. You really can't do all of your own research if you want to understand something fully anymore -- it simply goes too deep.

That's why we need science writers who have a strong background in science via their education, and a knack for conveying information to the public. They do comparative analysis from many other scientists and studies and present information that we simply can't access without spending years.

I didn't say I'd trust just anyone, and one needs to be careful when choosing which science writer or aggregator of knowledge they trust. And it's never complete trust, it's simply knowing they are more likely to be more knowledgeable than 'Debbie on the internet with a website and a YouTube channel' who decided to read a few science experiments and present their conclusion to us. It's just a better bet they know more than 'Debbie' or me.

Best to check credentials, for example:
https://www.lauriegarrett.com/about

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5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Which has become the meaning of the word "research" outside the academia or specialty fields.

In common use "do your own research" literally means "google something that agrees with you" probably for "internet points" / "facebook clout".

 

What a weird statement. That's honestly baffling to me. I just said that "looking something up that agrees with you" isn't research, so don't call it that. I personally don't give a flying flip about "internet points". I care about knowledge. So i tend to still know what the actual meaning of the word Research is, and no it does absolutely not involve things like facebook, not even Google, since that thing happens to be quite biased too.

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18 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I didn't say I'd trust just anyone, and one needs to be careful when choosing which science writer or aggregator of knowledge they trust.

Which leads to people citing infowars and claiming politics when they get laughed at.

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8 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The bulk of education isn't focused on discovery, it's focused on getting someone to tick the correct predefined boxes on a test.

In preparation for the life of drudgery ahead

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14 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The bulk of education isn't focused on discovery, it's focused on getting someone to tick the correct predefined boxes on a test.

I am desperately attempting to leave the education system as it has become a complete farce.

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So instead of fighting for what is right, teachers are just gonna lay down and take it? Nope, there isn't anything wrong with society and humans these days.

Think about that for a moment. If the teachers give up, the students are the ones who suffer even more than they do now. 

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22 hours ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Then that is not research, thats looking for confirmation. Two very different things.

In a scientific setting, research is "looking for confirmation" because the process generally begins with a hypothesis. However, a scientist will do it in such a way that they can also see when the hypothesis isn't confirmed.

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Not to take away from the concept of researching sources, but... It seems to me that "bias" is rapidly becoming a meaningless buzzword people use to make themselves look better or more enlightened than people around them.

It's in the same category as calling someone "woke" or "incel" or "communist" these days, and makes the very people we're trying to reach stop listening to us.

"Do you research and check the sources?" is a good question. No need to add modifiers to it.

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On 9/18/2021 at 9:24 AM, Luna Bliss said:

I really like what you've posted as it demonstrates just how complicated and difficult research really is.

Nobody has time to do it correctly though, so I'm afraid we have to depend on those who do and present results to us. Sometimes they get it wrong, but if you pick a good synthesizer they are often right.

Perhaps we need to be aware of criteria for picking a good synthesizer, like a good science writer, for example.

My go-to person for Covid information is Laurie Garrett. Mainly I chose her because she has researched viruses thoroughly for decades, has a proven track record with predictions, and is well-respected by educated people.

I can find fault in virtually anyone's "research", including my own. I just went to Ms. Garrett's Twitter feed, where her latest tweet says...

Given the minimally 10% under-reporting the #COVID19 death toll has definitely eclipsed the 1918 Flu -- which claimed est 675,000 Americans in about the same time frame. By this many months in 1919, however, US flu was almost over. COVID is still roaring in the USA.

Her claim is as misleading as it is accurate. The population of the US in 1918 was about 103 million. It's currently about 333 million. I instantly recognized that flaw in her comparison. It took under a a minute to calculate the magnitude of it by looking up the population of the US then and now. Population density has a nonlinear effect on R0, so her error is probably even more significant.

In 1918, India lost maybe 5% of its population to the flu. The US lost (by Garrett's number) about 0.65% (675K/103M).
So far, India has lost 445K/1.4B or 0.03% of its population to Covid-19. The US has lost (675K/330M) or about 0.2%.
I could argue that India is faring 167 (5/.03) times better under Covid-2019 than Flu-1918 and that the US is doing only 3.25x (0.65/0.2) better? Why is that?

Do my numbers make you feel any differently about the Covid-2019/Flu-1918 comparison than what you hear from Ms. Garrett? Do my numbers have you asking new questions, like why does India seem to be doing so much better than the US, even though their vaccination rate greatly lags ours?

As you say, research is complicated and difficult, even for those who do it for a living.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
Fixing errors before anyone notices.
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On 9/19/2021 at 1:17 PM, Coffee Pancake said:
On 9/19/2021 at 12:58 PM, Luna Bliss said:

I didn't say I'd trust just anyone, and one needs to be careful when choosing which science writer or aggregator of knowledge they trust.

Which leads to people citing infowars and claiming politics when they get laughed at.

Yep, and it's only getting worse   :(

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1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I can find fault in virtually anyone's "research", including my own. I just went to Ms. Garrett's Twitter feed, where her latest tweet says...

Given the minimally 10% under-reporting the #COVID19 death toll has definitely eclipsed the 1918 Flu -- which claimed est 675,000 Americans in about the same time frame. By this many months in 1919, however, US flu was almost over. COVID is still roaring in the USA.

Her claim is as misleading as it is accurate. The population of the US in 1918 was about 103 million. It's currently about 333 million. I instantly recognized that flaw in her comparison. It took under a a minute to calculate the magnitude of it by looking up the population of the US then and now. Population density has a nonlinear effect on R0, so her error is probably even more significant.

In 1918, India lost maybe 5% of its population to the flu. The US lost (by Garrett's number) about 0.65% (675K/103M).
So far, India has lost 445K/1.4B or 0.03% of its population to Covid-19. The US has lost (675K/330M) or about 0.2%.
I could argue that India is faring 167 (5/.03) times better under Covid-2019 than Flu-1918 and that the US is doing only 3.25x (0.65/0.2) better? Why is that?

Do my numbers make you feel any differently about the Covid-2019/Flu-1918 comparison than what you hear from Ms. Garrett? Do my numbers have you asking new questions, like why does India seem to be doing so much better than the US, even though their vaccination rate greatly lags ours?

As you say, research is complicated and difficult, even for those who do it for a living.

She reported on absolute numbers. Why should she report on every other factor just because you deem it necessary for credibility?
You want the per capita number, and I might want that as well as numbers adjusted for all kinds of factors in order to access which was/is more deadly.

For example, differences owing to improvements in hygiene and modern achievements in medicine, public health, and safety. No doubt many were saved in the recent outbreak that would have died in 1918, and this kept our current numbers down, making it difficult to truly determine which is/was more deadly. There are other factors to consider too.

I'm afraid, in the limited characters allowed in a Tweet, she can't get to all the details either you or I might want in order to determine which is/was more deadly.
She was simply reporting absolute numbers...that we are approaching the same numbers overall with Covid in comparison to the past flu epidemic -- nothing wrong or deceptive with that.

However, what's more important than shining your ego via imagining 'catching' a renowned expert on Covid information, is the fact that we do need to pay more attention to what educated people say vs the likes of Infowars and all the disinformation which is murdering people.  I guess, in your haste to shine, you lost the plot and context?  Way to go, Madelaine...encouraging the numerous people on this forum to distrust science and the experts even more...as if they didn't have reason enough to prefer their YouTube favorites.

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I really don't think Maddy was showing off, Luna. She (and you!) both pointed out a very pertinent point: Ms. Garrett reported absolute numbers.

As Maddy said, this is accurate...but misleading, because we have three times as many people in the USA today, compared to 1918.

Nobody "caught" nobody at nothing. This is just another example of how easy it is to "lie with statistics".  And no, I am not claiming Ms. Garrett is lying.  But it is very important to know just what is being reported, and what is not.

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Consult w your own dr. Like w cancer one size does not fit all.  NOTE == NOT ALL CANCER PATIENTS are able to get the vax due to the treatment/s they are doing at the moment.

It is heartbreaking for the patients who are doing cancer treatment and cannot get the vax at this time being told by certain news media persons the unvaxed  should be left behind or not be able to get medical treatment if they have an emergency and have to go to the er!

  That was the most heartless thing an anchor spokesperson/s could say to  unvaxed people who due to cancer and the treatment cannot get the vax at this time.

"No er treatment ...leave them behind," said the tv anchors/s and famous tv persons. To the tv anchors/s and famous tv persons remember, cancer patients who cannot get vaxed are part of the unvaxed  people you said on the news and tv shows you want to throw away ...shameful!!!

And there are other medical conditions as well. Example, some heart conditions the vax is at this time not advisable.

Chemo & other cancer treatments have a number of bad side effects that may not happen on the first or second day after infusion. What are they to do if they need to go to the er and not vaxed due to the cancer treatment???? Be turned away just because a few of the famous anchors or tv persons say to do that?

 

  I wonder how many   have had a heart-to-heart talk w your own dr about what is personally right for you.?    

Note our cancer Drs /oncologists/surgeons are very well informed, highly educated.

Talk to your dr

   In any medical treatment  

One size does not fit all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by roseelvira
spelling grammar and just upset .
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I like to do research but I rarely reference it to make a point in a forum since it is pointless (pun intended). You can site all day long in a forum and it still falls on deaf ears. If someone wishes to agree or counter I'd rather them research it themselves and find sources they trust rather than basing it off my citations. It's all in the fun of a discussion board TBH. Win or lose we both learn something.

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7 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

So instead of fighting for what is right, teachers are just gonna lay down and take it? Nope, there isn't anything wrong with society and humans these days.

Think about that for a moment. If the teachers give up, the students are the ones who suffer even more than they do now. 

😑😔😪 An extremely sensitive area where I am easily triggered and will not back down for any reason given my past results. Hence this tirade: (pardon me)...
I've assisted students with a cognitive disability for ten years with no opinions, guidance or standards written, offered nor set as the benchmark, therefore I have adopted World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) standards regarding electronic documentation specifically tailored for whatever disability is presented, wholly in line with state and national working with children/child protection legislation having had those accreditations for the entire time of course.

My aim has always been to provide a "tutor on demand" via text, video and audio links, (relative to whatever discipline is being studied by the candidate/s), outside of the classroom.
Inside the classroom is hands on, one on one tutoring. With a laser like focus on wellbeing, appropriate lifestyle choices, enhancing communicative skills and personal empowerment.
The most important thing I convey is how to exist in society and dealing with others, minimising stress and how to handle the sheer horror of dealing with unscrupulous egotistical individuals, loathsome enough to "lord it over" all and sundry. Including innocent disabled youth with very different and sometimes limited life experience.

All of a sudden and despite amazing repeatable results, my standards aren't good enough anymore.
To this day management still cant point to what standards should be implemented.
Personally I think its a case of disgraceful nepotism with a formerly unobtrusive senior manager now sticking their nose in where it has never previously been required and an attempt to "shoehorn" a very average performer into my specialist area.
So be it. 
My choices are, another position, (out of edu but still government), where I get to work alone again and double my renumeration whilst working exclusively from home, or continue on with development of my personal business and eventually rule the world. (ofc). 😍
So I am choosing both options.    
Past students are friends for life whom I still interact with if they need a helping hand or a shoulder to cry upon. But they generally don't, because I gave them real life examples of dealing with other peoples shift. 
Tirade be gone. 😛

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