Internet speed and slow performance in heavy lag sims

[marishkamat]

Hi.

I don't know if this is the right forum to post this question. If it isn't, please direct so i post it in the appropriate one.

My wireless internet speed varies between 65 and 85 Mbps. Yet when I go to a sim with lots of avatars, my typing slows down significantly and so does my avatar movement. I complain to those present and they say it is my internet speed. I am wondering if my speed should give me better performance in typing and av movement. I am not savvy with these matters, so could someone give me some idea of how I can improve this?

Thanks a lot.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

The limiting factor is the sim you're in.

Next time you encounter such situation, you can bring up Statistics with Ctrl+ F1 and post the result here.

[Rowan Amore]

19 minutes ago, marishkamat said:

Hi.

I don't know if this is the right forum to post this question. If it isn't, please direct so i post it in the appropriate one.

My wireless internet speed varies between 65 and 85 Mbps. Yet when I go to a sim with lots of avatars, my typing slows down significantly and so does my avatar movement. I complain to those present and they say it is my internet speed. I am wondering if my speed should give me better performance in typing and av movement. I am not savvy with these matters, so could someone give me some idea of how I can improve this?

Thanks a lot.

lag_info [Phoenix Firestorm Project - Wiki] (firestormviewer.org)

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

34 minutes ago, marishkamat said:

hen I go to a sim with lots of avatars, my typing slows down significantly and so does my avatar movement.

I asked about this at one of the meetings and Oz replied that everything, including typing, is reduced to texture drawing, so the busier the region you go to, the worse that will get.

The only way to manage it without buying better hardware is to turn off ALM, reduce your draw distance, and if necessary start dragging some of the other sliders such as quality, object detail etc back. If your viewer has graphics presets, make up some to flip between high and low quality modes.

[marishkamat]

42 minutes ago, Lillith Hapmouche said:

The limiting factor is the sim you're in.

Next time you encounter such situation, you can bring up Statistics with Ctrl+ F1 and post the result here.

This is a snapshot of the stats of the sim:

 

43 minutes ago, Lillith Hapmouche said:

The limiting factor is the sim you're in.

Next time you encounter such situation, you can bring up Statistics with Ctrl+ F1 and post the result here.

 

43 minutes ago, Lillith Hapmouche said:

The limiting factor is the sim you're in.

Next time you encounter such situation, you can bring up Statistics with Ctrl+ F1 and post the result here.

 

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

Ping Sim 583 msecs is a bit ominous, but the other figures such as 21 agents are pointing to a busy place.

Your internet speed isn't the issue, although from the ping sim time I'd be tempted to log out of SL and back in a few times to see if I could get something closer to 120mSec

 

[marishkamat]

22 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

Ping Sim 583 msecs is a bit ominous, but the other figures such as 21 agents are pointing to a busy place.

Your internet speed isn't the issue, although from the ping sim time I'd be tempted to log out of SL and back in a few times to see if I could get something closer to 120mSec

 

Thanks i will try that

 

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

Just to try and expand a little on what I posted and give an explanation of how to try and deal with it:

There are 21 avatars in the region, including yourself. A quick guess is that it's a club and they're all within chat range, so draw-distance is only worth dropping if it's set to reach the boders of the region.

All those other 20 avatars probably have mesh bodies, probably with 1024x1024 textures on skin , clothes, jewellry, ...

Your viewer is therefore being given loads of updates from the region to process, and the most of it is mesh objects and large textures to be thrown at the GPU.

Since the bare minimum you need to be in control is the ability to read and type in local chat plus move around, you have to reduce the amount of avatar and object-generated graphics load.

After the obvious initial advice I gave regarding Draw distance and graphics sliders, try reducing the avatar complexity setting to jelly-doll some of the more extravagant creatures around you. You'll still be able to see where they are and move around them, but obviously you won't be able to compliment them on their appearance.

Dropping all that graphics will then at least allow your typing to become visible in a less jerky manner.

Oh, and turn off shadows...

Edited September 17, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[animats]

35 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

Ping Sim 583 msecs

"Ping", as measured by SL viewers, is bogus info. It's timed based on the point in the frame cycle when the network gets read. Low frame rate forces high displayed "ping time", regardless of what the network is doing. High ping time by itself does not force low frame rate.

[Rowan Amore]

In a club, I have my draw at the minimum of 32.  I see perfectly fine.  

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

18 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

In a club, I have my draw at the minimum of 32. 

I can never understand why the official viewer and the V3-derivatives set the minimum to 64m. But the question here is what does the OP have by way of Ram, GPU, and settings?

My own experience is that if I go somewhere and there's a dozen avatars within a few metres of me, everything slows, but I am using rather aged hardware.

[Jackson Redstar]

in a busy sim just turn off atmosphere shaders along with shadows. you prob wont need a draw distance much past about 64 either and set the max number of non imposter avatars low, like about 10. that should help you quite a bit. No need to mess with the performance/quality slider, just mainly turn off the shaders and shadows. 

What i do for normal traveling around hanging out is made a new preset I just call it daytime. Make the sun black and turn op the ambient to a nice bright level. without shaders and shadows its a nice even well lit environment, other to enjoy a nice sim or take photos or video, there just isn't any reason to have on shaders and shadows even if you are on a pretty good PC . In fact IMO the default noon is so horrible that I think it instantly puts off alot of new people just experiencing SL for the first time.  and newbie islands should tell residents they can switch off the shaders and shadows for a better experience if they are moving slow. In fact should have a 'everyday' button that turns off the shadows and shadows, turns off the sun and boosts the ambient just with one button click

Edited September 18, 2021 by Jackson Redstar

[Audiobuff007]

Delving back into this.. the SL grid is obviously poorly optimized, preaching to the choir. My Graphics and CPU run the viewer mostly at rest, however my connection until updated, supports a maximum of 10Mb (bits) down, 1.5 up max if the network isn't in use. Why aren't the viewers utilizing more of the hardware? Sure my 130-150fps on a clean sim, but a reasonably finished sim sends the viewer into a hard nose dive. I don't know LSL well enough to know how all of these params apply. Let me know what you think. 

 

[Aishagain]

@Audiobuff007Your viewer FPS has no relationship to the network connection.  It is purely a result of the speed at which your graphics can process the textures in each frame; slow GPU > low FPS.  Your draw distance, maximum complexity and non-impostor avatar settings all have a bearing on this FPS issue. With a 10Mbps down connection you should be fine under most SL situations. As to why your GPU/CPU hardware is not better utilized, you are just one of many folk wondering why the viewer software is not better in that regard.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Aishagain

[Ardy Lay]

That Total Unacked Data chart is mildly disturbing.  I do not KNOW what is it but I have guessed that it is representative of how much of the UDP data in the subprotocols that the simulator wants to know "did viewer get this" has been acknowledged as received by the viewer it was sent to.  When I am alone on a region I see this bopping around at zero. When another Resident with a great Internet connection enters the region that chart continues bopping around zero.  When a Resident with a disappointing Internet connection enters the region that chart flies around all over the place.  The more disappointing Internet connections using the region, the higher the chart wobbles.  If there is a lot of text chat it while those Resident s using disappointing Internet connections are present then the chart goes way high.  If there is little text chat for a while then the chart settles around a lower number.

If your unacked data chart was generated while only 3 agents are connected to the region then I would guess somebody's Internet connection is throwing a wobbly.  If you got those numbers with 30 or more in the region I would think all is good.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Ardy Lay

[MarissaOrloff]

15,000 Ktris/frame is a lot of triangles to push! A computer can only process so many triangles per second. The faster cpu/gpu the more triangles it can process each frame thus more fps. The more barren an area is with say only 1,000 Ktris/fr your fps will scale upwards accordingly. A high ping time will make interactions seem like you are stuck in mud but little you can do about that. So, to rehash what people have said since the beginning of Linden time... Lower your graphics quality to one above low. Lower your max# of non-impostor avatars to 4 (or wherever you feel it looks best to performance). And of course, lower your draw distance. Start at 32 and then inch upwards to your desired quality to performance sweet spot is. 

The sim that you are in looks like it is performing beautifully. Negligible physics and simulation time with available spare time which is rare to have. As LL keeps moving simulators to better hardware those numbers mean less and less. Back in the "old days" just a few Sion chickens would be enough to bring the best performing region to a crawl. 

Edited November 13, 2021 by MarissaOrloff

[Audiobuff007]

On 11/12/2021 at 5:52 PM, MarissaOrloff said:

15,000 Ktris/frame is a lot of triangles to push! A computer can only process so many triangles per second. The faster cpu/gpu the more triangles it can process each frame thus more fps. The more barren an area is with say only 1,000 Ktris/fr your fps will scale upwards accordingly. A high ping time will make interactions seem like you are stuck in mud but little you can do about that. So, to rehash what people have said since the beginning of Linden time... Lower your graphics quality to one above low. Lower your max# of non-impostor avatars to 4 (or wherever you feel it looks best to performance). And of course, lower your draw distance. Start at 32 and then inch upwards to your desired quality to performance sweet spot is. 

The sim that you are in looks like it is performing beautifully. Negligible physics and simulation time with available spare time which is rare to have. As LL keeps moving simulators to better hardware those numbers mean less and less. Back in the "old days" just a few Sion chickens would be enough to bring the best performing region to a crawl. 

Thanks for the explanation. Although I do keep seeing the "slow GPU > low FPS." comment. I'm running on Nitro 5700 XT, runs anything in my Steam library near maximums every title.. and the base hardware to match, you name it, premium build. I am eager to understand and to learn more to analyze sim performance. Any reference to concise material would be helpful. The sim I've sent the data on, is my own. Thanks again. 

[Audiobuff007]

On 11/10/2021 at 5:53 PM, Ardy Lay said:

That Total Unacked Data chart is mildly disturbing.  I do not KNOW what is it but I have guessed that it is representative of how much of the UDP data in the subprotocols that the simulator wants to know "did viewer get this" has been acknowledged as received by the viewer it was sent to.  When I am alone on a region I see this bopping around at zero. When another Resident with a great Internet connection enters the region that chart continues bopping around zero.  When a Resident with a disappointing Internet connection enters the region that chart flies around all over the place.  The more disappointing Internet connections using the region, the higher the chart wobbles.  If there is a lot of text chat it while those Resident s using disappointing Internet connections are present then the chart goes way high.  If there is little text chat for a while then the chart settles around a lower number.

If your unacked data chart was generated while only 3 agents are connected to the region then I would guess somebody's Internet connection is throwing a wobbly.  If you got those numbers with 30 or more in the region I would think all is good.

Could explain Wobbly? Thanks

[Ardy Lay]

Wobbly, in this case, being inconsistent, perhaps losing packets or delaying them enough that they might as well be lost because they are no longer useful.

[MarissaOrloff]

6 hours ago, Audiobuff007 said:

Thanks for the explanation. Although I do keep seeing the "slow GPU > low FPS." comment. I'm running on Nitro 5700 XT, runs anything in my Steam library near maximums every title.. and the base hardware to match, you name it, premium build. I am eager to understand and to learn more to analyze sim performance. Any reference to concise material would be helpful. The sim I've sent the data on, is my own. Thanks again. 

The 5700 xt is a one above mid range card from a 2 1/2 years ago. SL is heavily cpu bound also. So if you do not have the cpu to match a better quality gpu it is not going to give you that much of a performance lift. Don't compare SL to AAA game titles. SL is not optimized for performance. SL doesn't really care how "good" your hardware is. It will chew it up and spit it out. I have a 5900x and RTX-3080 and in a busy region in ultra it will struggle with 20fps. 

As far as for reference material there is not much if any out there. There is this http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/How_to_reduce_lag  Notice how the #1 given reason is "your computer spec". If you are laggy the best you can do is try to determine if its client lag or server lag. Symptoms of client lag are low fps and stutter in movement and camera panning. Server lag symptoms are scripts that take longer than normal to react. That's usually due to a high amount of avatars in a region eating sim server resources leaving script time (which has low priority) with little available resources. Opening hours of a big shopping event (Equal10, Uber, FaMESHed, ect) is a great place to see a region fall to its knees. A different type of movement stutter will occur in lagged regions where the client will try to guess where you are going and then will just snap to somewhere else when the region tells the client where your avatar really is. Pay attention to the "Total Frame Time" section of stats to see the numbers of a region under light, moderate and heavy load. Time Dilation is another good basic check for server lag. 1.000 with 45fps is perfect the more that number goes down the worse the region is performing. Lots of movement in a region form avatars and objects can affect that. Avatars teleporting in and out will cause that value to spike down as well. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by MarissaOrloff