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Mastering the LindeX


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Neither the Process Credit section nor the ToS say you can only process out credit earned.  They are both talking about refunding which is not the same.  LL will never refund Lindens.  You can ONLY sell them back.to other residents.  Account credits are in USD not Lindens.  

As far as you being denied your process credit, as @Rolig Loonmentioned, it was perhaps the immediate turn around that got it flagged.  I see nothing that says only Lindens earned can be sold or.processed out.  She also.pointed out you can no longer transfer money from your PayPal or credit card directly into your USD account.  Those could be what account credits purchased refer to.

You may only process credit due from net proceeds from sales of Linden Dollars.

Nowhere does it say, except for the Linden you quoted, you must earn the Lindens to sell them or process credit.  Net proceeds are the sale minus fees.

Either way,.they make money on the sale of the Lindens and the processing out and anyone trying to turn around money in such a way would lose money.  Not a wise move but I've seen people asking about it when they accidentally purchased the wrong amount.  Sure, they can sell it and process out but end up with less than they started with.

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That's fine Rowan. Interpret however you like. Just stop commenting when I correctly state otherwise. I didn't ask for this discussion with you. So please quit anklehumping my posts. It's getting old.

As for my specific issue that wasn't what Slate was responding to. He was answering a very specific question I had asked a couple weeks ago. Essentially, exactly this topic since I was curious why I was denied when apparently there's boatloads of people (there isn't) who refund their Lindens all the time. Even though Slate states at the end that constantly doing such could potentially get someone banned.

My process credit history that I posted had one transaction that was requested 3 days after the initial purchase, the 2nd was a week later so 10 days after the initial purchase. Essentially I had put money into the game to pay tier then realized how much I was spending and decided to buy a sim instead since it would be cheaper by the month, had equity and would just charge my card every month opposed to having to buy Lindens to pay someone rent. So I no longer needed those Lindens and attempted to process them back to my paypal.

Seemed like a reasonable ask but according to SL's TOS they cannot process that. I think the only refund they'll guarantee is if you buy lindens off the limit buy and cancel the limit buy before the lindens are actually purchased. USD balance from that can be refunded from my understanding. But no they will not take money from your credit card, process it and send it to your paypal. That can be abused which is why it's strictly (in most cases) against their policy. Maybe they have some unnamed imaginary number that they will allow but it's not guaranteed according to their TOS. Which I've posted as well as their own interpretation of what their TOS says and not what you or I think it means or think it should mean.

Edited by Finite
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22 minutes ago, Crim Mip said:

You aren't going to make a profit trying to play the spread between buy and sell prices.

oh no that's not what I intend to do XD I am just seeking for advice on what's the decent rates for a limit sell :)

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5 minutes ago, SibyllVane said:

oh no that's not what I intend to do XD I am just seeking for advice on what's the decent rates for a limit sell

It's a strange case of sell low buy high. as others have mentioned, 240 or 241 is a good selling point at the moment.

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4 hours ago, SibyllVane said:

Thank you everyone for the insight! Since I have you here, I would like to hear your opinion: looking at the rates right now,

 6bc31c434dcd9f2fe583f510e57e86cd.png
https://gyazo.com/6bc31c434dcd9f2fe583f510e57e86

and assuming I was to try the limit sell, is it likely that an order lower than that huuuuuge chunk at 239/1US$ would ever get sold? I did a small market sell and I'm happy about it, but I would like to give the limit sell a try at some point, since I'm in no rush of cashing out!

Supply Linden keeps the rates pretty stable.
Always use a limit sell, never a market sell (self explanatory).

Saturday through to early Monday - we have what we termed (in a private group) "Sunday Sellers". these are merchants who want to cash out on Monday and certain land barons. Those basically will put around 20 Million in at the best rate (so 240 per above) - so that will force you if you sell during that time, and want cash out at 241.

Linden does not process any cash outs during the weekend.

If you want to get a sale at 240 it's best to sell mid week and you will see that number dip below 2-3M (in recent times) - you will then sell same day, cash out Wednesday night and is some/most cases get your money into PayPal Thursday evening (24 hours).

I have pages and pages/post and posts (not on this forum) plus metrics showing thru put and specific behaviour over Lindex education.   We did this last year as many merchants were losing hundreds of dollars a year by not understanding thru-put etc.  E.g they would sell at 242 where there was only 30,000 Linden at 241 - they should have sold at 241 as it would still have closed same day etc.

 

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53 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

Supply Linden keeps the rates pretty stable.
Always use a limit sell, never a market sell (self explanatory).

Saturday through to early Monday - we have what we termed (in a private group) "Sunday Sellers". these are merchants who want to cash out on Monday and certain land barons. Those basically will put around 20 Million in at the best rate (so 240 per above) - so that will force you if you sell during that time, and want cash out to use 241 versus 240.

Linden does not process any cash outs during the weekend.

If you want to get a sale at 240 it's best to sell mid week and you will see that number dip below 2-3M (in recent times) - you will then sell same day, cash out Wednesday night and is some/most cases get your money into PayPal Thursday evening (24 hours).   239 sales we have obtained but to me looks like Supply L is pushing us a bit upwards recently.   

I have pages and pages/post and posts (not on this forum) plus metrics showing thru put and specific behaviour over Lindex education.   We did this last year as many merchants were losing hundreds of dollars a year by not understanding thru-put etc.  E.g they would sell at 242 where there was only 30,000 Linden at 241 - they should have sold at 241 as it would still have closed same day etc.

 

Lol sorry somehow I quoted myself 😂

Edited by Charlotte Bartlett
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37 minutes ago, SibyllVane said:

thank you kindly @Charlotte Bartlett, that is some precious info!

So, say I am in no rush to cash out - does selling at 239 L$/US$ (with hundreds of millions kind of stagnating in there) make any sense? or anything lower than that, for that matter...?

239 assuming no major changes would take you at least a few weeks right now.

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6 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

but the fuzzy part is how long you have to wait.

That's bad form. Financial services which drag their feet on payouts raise red flags. California money transfer time limits may apply. It's not at Tilia's sole discretion. Tilia is in a regulated business.

6 hours ago, Finite said:

and the availability of any refund will be subject to the relevant Platform TOS and the determination of the relevant Provider. 

This probably reflects what Upland is doing. It's very hard to get real money out of Upland You have to be in the "fiat out beta" group, which has been "beta" for a year or so now. (Whether Upland is a Ponzi scheme is beyond the scope of this discussion.)

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8 hours ago, Finite said:

That's fine Rowan. Interpret however you like. Just stop commenting when I correctly state otherwise. I didn't ask for this discussion with you. So please quit anklehumping my posts. It's getting old.

As for my specific issue that wasn't what Slate was responding to. He was answering a very specific question I had asked a couple weeks ago. Essentially, exactly this topic since I was curious why I was denied when apparently there's boatloads of people (there isn't) who refund their Lindens all the time. Even though Slate states at the end that constantly doing such could potentially get someone banned.

My process credit history that I posted had one transaction that was requested 3 days after the initial purchase, the 2nd was a week later so 10 days after the initial purchase. Essentially I had put money into the game to pay tier then realized how much I was spending and decided to buy a sim instead since it would be cheaper by the month, had equity and would just charge my card every month opposed to having to buy Lindens to pay someone rent. So I no longer needed those Lindens and attempted to process them back to my paypal.

Seemed like a reasonable ask but according to SL's TOS they cannot process that. I think the only refund they'll guarantee is if you buy lindens off the limit buy and cancel the limit buy before the lindens are actually purchased. USD balance from that can be refunded from my understanding. But no they will not take money from your credit card, process it and send it to your paypal. That can be abused which is why it's strictly (in most cases) against their policy. Maybe they have some unnamed imaginary number that they will allow but it's not guaranteed according to their TOS. Which I've posted as well as their own interpretation of what their TOS says and not what you or I think it means or think it should mean.

Assuming you were buying a region and paying Linden Lab directly, you could have converted your Lindens to a US dollar balance and not tried to send it to Paypal. Then you could have used the US dollar balance to pay part of your fee to Linden Lab.

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3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Assuming you were buying a region and paying Linden Lab directly, you could have converted your Lindens to a US dollar balance and not tried to send it to Paypal. Then you could have used the US dollar balance to pay part of your fee to Linden Lab.

It was a grandfathered sim. But I probably could have used it toward the transfer fee they had at the time. Not sure if this is still a thing. I think I ultimately converted it back into lindens and bought stuff for the sim with it or used it toward tier. It was a USD balance already from selling the linden I had initially bought. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to even attempt a process credit to paypal.

Edited by Finite
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Somewhere in this forum I read: " The main risk to L$ value is a decline in effective L$-denominated sinks" - I learned what sinks are, but I can't see how their decline can mine the value of L$... can anyone explain?

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LL minimizes fluctuations in the market for L$ by adding some of its own money (or L$) to the LindeX (or removing it) every once in a while.  That's more or less what the Federal Reserve and other central banks do in RL to manage the mount of money in circulation and buffer against inflation.  As long as LL can afford to move its own money around, then, the price of L$ stays more or less constant over time.  That risk statement is just saying that if they couldn't do that for some reason, the market would be more volatile and you might risk losing some value (or gaining some).

Edited by Rolig Loon
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On 9/5/2021 at 1:00 AM, Charlotte Bartlett said:

Lindex education.

Would it be possible for someone like me - just a SL manager making the odd 100$ a month - to have access to any of the information? I would love to learn!

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13 hours ago, SibyllVane said:

Would it be possible for someone like me - just a SL manager making the odd 100$ a month - to have access to any of the information? I would love to learn!

It's long gone I am afraid - we were talking to LL over a year ago posting it on the blog, but they never got to it sadly.  

However, here is a specific example of a "Sunday Seller"
This person or persons has placed a limit sale at 242 - when (especially as LL is closed today) they could have placed it at 240 and likely with the average thru-put rate still got their USD in time for cash out end of tomorrow.  

No biggie right?  Except let's imagine that is a creator whom is cashing out 100,000 L weekly at two points above market, they are losing USD 178.88 a year (without fees taken into account).  That could be a few months of utilities, or a car payment etc.  Same for the people in 241 sales here with less than 13M on 240 they could have queued there for 24-48 hours... this especially goes for days when LL is closed as they only do cash out's when in the office.

462338213_ScreenShot2021-09-06at1_01_03PM.jpg.85c7bf74429139b2cf4364197205a9f6.jpg

Edited by Charlotte Bartlett
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I'm not sure what info you think Tilia should provide, that they don't already.  No mystery in Selling with a Limit order.  Tilia will take their cut, which is around 8% for a $100 cashout.  If the orders waiting are less than L$50,000,000 at the near market price and you can wait 24 hrs or less, put your order in at that price.  The differences are small for just $100 USD,  you might save 50 cents.   

Orders at this minute:

 4a45a84ed6fa7f6fe334e84090afa73b.png 

$240 Sell should go thru in less than an hour, as Charlotte said 20 hrs ago.

If you want an instant execution, use L$241.

The Lindex is just a computer program using FIFO (First In First Out), and always executing at the best current price via FIFO.  It runs 24/7.

 

 

Edited by Jaylinbridges
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@JaylinbridgesWhat I am wondering is: I hear that it's sort of a "matter of time" and how long I am willing to wait, but if I put a limit sell at 239 L$/US$ I will still have to hope that the 240 (or above) disappears at some point, because the best sell rate will always take precedence for a market buyer, over my "queue" at 239. Did I get this wrong? Does the "waiting list" matter more than a better rate?

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It's a balancing act between two weighted criteria in the program. Offers that have been open for a longer time have higher precedence than ones that were made more recently.  And, offers made at a more "attractive" price (that is, sell offers that are most attractive to buyers and buy offers that are most attractive to sellers) have a higher precedence than those that are less attractive.  The second one -- the price criterion -- usually wins, so your offer gets quicker attention if you offer a more attractive price.   However, the longer your offer stays on the table, the more weight it gets each time a potential trade is considered.  That's why all those offers at L$239/USD are usually filled in a few days, even though there are some more recent offers on the table at L$240.   In theory, an offer made at a ridiculously low price -- probably by some resident who didn't understand the process and then abandoned his offer in frustration -- might be filled a year or more from now.  I suspect, though, that most of those are never filled or, if they are, it's long after the account owners have left SL.

EDIT:  Another way to think about it is exactly as you phrased it.  You have an offer sitting at L$239 and there are "better" offers at L$240 ahead of you.  Those turn over fairly quickly, so every once in a while the entire stack at L$240 is empty for a few seconds.  Suddenly, your L$239 offer is attractive and it closes.  As long as the queue above you is fairly small and turning over fast, your chance of getting in at L$239 is still pretty good.   Don't forget, too, that a great many people are not using the Limit options.  They place orders at the current market price.  Those offers will tend to clean out the most attractive offers first.

Edited by Rolig Loon
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2 hours ago, SibyllVane said:

if I put a limit sell at 239 L$/US$ I will still have to hope that the 240 (or above) disappears at some point, because the best sell rate will always take precedence for a market buyer, over my "queue" at 239

Yes!

2 hours ago, SibyllVane said:

Does the "waiting list" matter more than a better rate?

No!

Rolig Loon explained it in more detail above.

 

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7 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

It's a balancing act between two weighted criteria in the program. Offers that have been open for a longer time have higher precedence than ones that were made more recently.  And, offers made at a more "attractive" price (that is, sell offers that are most attractive to buyers and buy offers that are most attractive to sellers) have a higher precedence than those that are less attractive.  The second one -- the price criterion -- usually wins, so your offer gets quicker attention if you offer a more attractive price.   However, the longer your offer stays on the table, the more weight it gets each time a potential trade is considered.  That's why all those offers at L$239/USD are usually filled in a few days, even though there are some more recent offers on the table at L$240.   In theory, an offer made at a ridiculously low price -- probably by some resident who didn't understand the process and then abandoned his offer in frustration -- might be filled a year or more from now.  I suspect, though, that most of those are never filled or, if they are, it's long after the account owners have left SL.

EDIT:  Another way to think about it is exactly as you phrased it.  You have an offer sitting at L$239 and there are "better" offers at L$240 ahead of you.  Those turn over fairly quickly, so every once in a while the entire stack at L$240 is empty for a few seconds.  Suddenly, your L$239 offer is attractive and it closes.  As long as the queue above you is fairly small and turning over fast, your chance of getting in at L$239 is still pretty good.   Don't forget, too, that a great many people are not using the Limit options.  They place orders at the current market price.  Those offers will tend to clean out the most attractive offers first.

One small correction - LL doesn't actually really "weight" limit orders.  They simply queue.

And sales thrown in at 242 and above will always sell before 241,240, 239 etc.
Merchants/Barons also park L% at the lower rates (another topic).

I did find part of my old Lindex Guide which is separate to what I mentioned above!  
Not financial or legal advice so take with a pinch of salt and reading this through now I would make a fair few changes!  I also termed them Monday versus Sunday Sellers back in the day!  Please ignore the typos galore, as I no longer have the final version - but for the OP the bit around how to understand limit sales may help,




 

LindexGuide_1.jpg

LindexGuide_2.jpg

LindexGuide_3.jpg

LindexGuide_4.jpg

LindexGuide_5.jpg

Edited by Charlotte Bartlett
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Here is some history to understand the context better:

So the LindEx was coded literally over a weekend once by a Linden named Lawrence Linden who is long gone. (LSL was created over a weekend by Cory Linden/Cory Ondrejka back in the day, and of course revised over the years).

It came into being because people in SL made Lindens and wanted to cash them out, as people do in all games, or buy the game currency at a better rate. SL isn't a game, but it has game-like currency.

In the early days, you could cash out but it was being handled manually as I recall and took longer than the current 5 days. You could also cash out just to use US dollars for tier, but the rate of exchange was very poor at that time for that purpose. So people would go to Gaming Open Market, an exchange that sold game currencies from different games and platforms, get a better rate, then pay tier with cheaper US dollars. The Lindens didn't object to this, but soon the value reached US $4.25, which was quite a difference to their poor exchange for tier-only cashouts.

So first the Lindens invited the GOM team for discussions, making it seem like they were going to hire them or incorporate them into the staff with an "aquihire". Instead, they dumped them, leading the SL Herald, the muckraking paper of the time (since defunct) to use the term "being GOM'ed" to describe similar relationships with the Lindens that started well and ended in tears. (SLExchange wasn't like that, and some of the acquihired Lindens from that buy-out are still on staff today, years later).

So first the Lindens considered banning all third-party exchanges to force people on to their LindEx where of course they could take a fee for purchase or sale of Lindens, which is "a license to access content" -- they stressed at the time that it was not real currency (although it has become more real now that there is Tillia). Then they relented and allowed certain big players like Anshe Chung and VIROX to keep exchanges open. VIROX was great because you could cash out to dollars or Euros, and this was convenient for me to have Euros on account and then when traveling in Europe, put them on my card at a better rate than an airport or hotel exchange.

The Linden sunk in value over the years, tied to the vicissitudes of the land market (which was mainly shaped by the auction of the time, which sold full Mainland sims and highly-valued telehub sims in the age before point-to-point teleportation) and to gambling, while online gambling was still legal in the US (it was outlawed in 2012).

But in an effort to break the Anshe Chung cartel particularly on prime waterfront, a group of smaller land barons joined together and created a stock exchange to assist one another in land purchases. It was more like a credit union with benefits but grew into one of several stock exchanges that paid out dividends -- until they couldn't, as they were run like ponzi schemes eventually.

Even so, the stock markets and banks of various types were popular, especially for land loans, and they had a run for about 1-2 years, attracting the interest event of a Cornell University professor whose avatar was named "Beyers Sellers" who started an organization called "Metanomics" and organized conferences to discuss all these things. Soon Metaverse scholars like Edward Castronova (author of "Escape to the Virtual World) were saying things at the annual "State of Play" conference like "soon, you will drop the adjective 'virtual' from the term 'virtual stock market' because it will be *the* stock market.) Well, like a lot of things in the Metaverse, it was premature.

After p2p and the outlaw of gambling, the micro empires of "savings accounts" with high interest (Geiko), the virtual stock market, various other "investment plans" and such were also banned by the Lindens and there were many crashes and burns with some unable to pay tier and losing their land baron empires and even large amounts of RL cash.

Then the Lindens totally banned any third-party exchanges whatsoever, so they all rolled up their terminals.

The value of the Linden remained weak and volatile through this period and gradually rallied to the US $4.00/1000 Lindens that you see today (cash out at 241 -- but in past years, after the 2006-2007 heyday of SL and interest from RL businesses, it would go to 257 or 290 -- I used to issue a newsletter with these records and you can also find articles on the Internet).

There is a certain core forums opinion that that the "Linden is stable" and that "it never changes" and it has "always been at this value". But I have lived through the history of 17 years in SL, so I'm here to tell you that's not true. To be sure, the LindEx is kept stable for the most part by various fire breaks -- if it becomes overheated, it slows down exchanges. There's also "Supply Linden" who pumps Linden dollars into the exchange, insuring "inflation" of a sort but the "stability" that people want. It would rise higher in value if there were no Supply Linden and be better for merchants in value, but then become too pricey for the average person who wants to feel like he has "a thousand bucks" but without spending more than he would for a latte. It's really psychological.

All you have to do is look at the days after the gacha policy was announced and quite a few people headed for the exits, and the value went to 242-243. It is likely kept artificially usually at 241 now by "Supply Linden".

The system has sinks and sources. We used to be told more about this by Lawrence Linden and others but not in recent years. So the fee of 10L you pay to upload texture is not "revenue for LL", it's a removal of cash from the system to keep the supply tighter.

Yet the percentage of each sale made on the Marketplace *is* revenue for Linden, just like sales of abandoned land at $1/meter. As far as I know. I'm assuming since the goal of LL and many aspiring Metaversals is to have revenue not from land, which is expensive (servers) and staff-heavy to maintain, but to have more revenue from currency sales, fees for cashouts, and taxing of sales of content (and possibly a few other things like abandoned land). (Ultimately they would sell the software and the hook-up and you would pay for your own server to host your land and connect to others).

But the reality is, the bulk of LL's revenue comes from tier for private islands which make up the overwhelming majority of sims in SL (there are 6800 Mainland sims, of which 57% is owned by Linden Lab in the form of roads, parks, and abandoned land; of this 1600 is Bellisseria, the newest Linden homes. You can find more at www.gridsurvey.net)

In the old days, there was a concerted set of people, including the stock market owners, who played the LindEx, parking 100,000 on and waiting shorter or longer periods for it to sell. That's much, much harder to do today because it's rare that you would sell out at anything too far away from 240-242. The fees have steadily increased over the years making it also not a very lucrative caper. You might do better putting money into a Marcus savings account or playing Acorn stocks or whatever, I don't know. I'm not a land baron; I'm not an economist; I'm just a small land business owner who has observed these processes over the years.

There is a timing to the LindEx that you can observe, and plan for, while still being stuck with your tier dates. We don't know if the Lindens play the "float" resulting from cash waiting on your account to pay tier -- I don't think they do but who knows.

So obviously Friday nights is when people come off work and want to buy Lindens, and Mondays are when people go back to work and need to sell Lindens to pay for RL expenses. Holidays can be times of intense Linden buying.

I *think* Halloween has greater sales and greater LindEx activity than Christmas. But someone could dispute that. It's just my impression. Maybe SL residents are a darker, pagan crowd? Or maybe it's just that around Halloween, you decorate more with spooky houses and pumpkins and such AND get various costumes and props, whereas at Christmas, you put out a tree and wreath and not necessarily any more dress up, although you might get winter items. Anyway, you are more likely to see a better rate when there is a flurry of Linden purchases around holidays when people want to decorate and dress up -- and give presents.

@Finite I was not aware that there was a policy against quickly buying and selling Lindens to get an advantage on the LindEx. I thought it was just that few people did this because it's not profitable given the fees. If you bought Lindens, didn't use them, and parked them at a higher rate and waited for a long time, it might not trigger their warnings, but since you have stacked up several I guess this is not what you should be doing. I'm still confused, however, as to what exactly you were attempting or what they would consider "playing" the LindEx.

I once accidentally set cash from rentals that I wanted to use to pay tier on too low a number, forgot about it, and *a year later* suddenly I had US $100 in my account as the LindEx just happened to have a lot of sales around a holiday. But I think anything lower than 239 probably has no chance of being seen for months or years even. That's because it is kept artificially stable by the infusion of Linden dollars.

If a tier date is approaching in two days and I see something like $57 million on 241, it might clear by then but it might not; certainly $100 million won't. So I can put it there but then I have to double back and sell it at 242 on the tier date if it is not moving.

 

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3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

@Finite I was not aware that there was a policy against quickly buying and selling Lindens to get an advantage on the LindEx. I thought it was just that few people did this because it's not profitable given the fees. If you bought Lindens, didn't use them, and parked them at a higher rate and waited for a long time, it might not trigger their warnings, but since you have stacked up several I guess this is not what you should be doing. I'm still confused, however, as to what exactly you were attempting or what they would consider "playing" the LindEx.

I wasn't playing the market at all. I just bought lindens for one thing, decided I no longer needed them for that thing and sold them and tried to process the USD and was told they don't do that. They kept responding something like please refer to the TOS as to why. I ultimately called them and had it explained to me because the TOS can be read many different ways. This was 4 years ago. Then recently I asked again via a ticket and that was Slate's response. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with the the Lindex and more to do with SL not wanting to be regulated like a money transmitter.

As it pertains to this topic i was just explaining that it is not like a real world stock exchange where you buy a stock and it has equity. Lindens have no equity. It's like spending 2k on a stock and only ever being able to access the net gains from it minus the initial investment. However the OP stated she was just referring to maximizing the selling of lindens. Not necessarily playing it like a market.

Seems SL only wants lindex to be a place where merchants sell lindens and consumers buy lindens with LL being the middle man. Doesn't seem they want it to be played like an actual stock exchange.

Edit: I should clarify. Lindens you buy have no equity. Lindens you earn technically do since these can be converted to USD and sent to your bank account and not just sit as a credit on your Tilia though legally in the US they currently don't have equity but my understanding is they do in some countries.

Edited by Finite
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On 9/7/2021 at 11:35 PM, Finite said:

 Doesn't seem to have anything to do with the the Lindex and more to do with SL not wanting to be regulated like a money transmitter..

Edit: I should clarify. Lindens you buy have no equity. Lindens you earn technically do since these can be converted to USD and sent to your bank account and not just sit as a credit on your Tilia though legally in the US they currently don't have equity but my understanding is they do in some countries.

1. Tilia Inc. is a registered Money Service Business and has the required registrations with FinCEN per the Banking Secrecy Act in the US under 31 CFR 1022.380(a)-(f) (that's a mouthful ha).   Tilia Inc. is registered for activities 409 and 414.  Linden Research Inc. was historically registered too before they created Tilia Inc.

409 is a Money Transmitter Service.
414 is a Provider of Prepaid Access.

Hence they are fully regulated as a money transmitter and it's why we have to do things like provide proper RL identity information for cashing out.
 

Edited by Charlotte Bartlett
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