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54 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

No, that definition is specific to real life images and film. It can not be used as a definition for cartoon graphics as the definition you link is in relation to laws covering children and adults in film and photography. It has nothing to do with cartoon images, games or platforms like SL. The definition is defined as it would be in relation to only that law and no other. It is also why elsewhere in the same law it states clearly that the definition does not relate to depictions of cartoons etc as that is covered under separate laws.

It is also why there is a separate film and game classification board as they differ.

For a definition relating to Second Life and depictions of games etc you have to refer to places like the link I gave from Australia's rating system or places like PEGI, ESRB, etc as those cover the laws relating to graphics in the form of games or cartoon look. It is within those that simulated sexual conduct is defined for graphical pixel representations.

Whilst your link is relevant to OnlyFans, it may not be relevant to second life as like I mentioned before it comes down to how 'actual or simulated sexual intercourse' is defined in relation TO Second Life not RL images.

Edited by Drayke Newall
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4 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

No, that definition is specific to real life images and film. It can not be used as a definition for cartoon graphics as the definition you link is in relation to laws covering children and adults in film and photography.

The question though, isn't whether SL pornography is pornography. that much should be obvious. It's whether or not SL is subject to the laws or policies of powerful entities which limit the sale and distribution of such. As far as I can tell, if you take "simulated" in the context most of us would understand it, the only kind of simulated sex that's not legal is A****** (self-censored).

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1 hour ago, Quistess Alpha said:

The question though, isn't whether SL pornography is pornography. that much should be obvious. It's whether or not SL is subject to the laws or policies of powerful entities which limit the sale and distribution of such. As far as I can tell, if you take "simulated" in the context most of us would understand it, the only kind of simulated sex that's not legal is A****** (self-censored).

As I said the definition legally is that cartoon or game graphics can fall under the same restrictions which is evident from the Australian federal law game rating classifications where it is defined as illegal.

The problem with Second Life and other virtual worlds and some MMO's though, is that game ratings such as PEGI and ESRB etc dont apply to them as those ratings are not for multiplayer games due to the developers inability to have real control of what people do in the game or platform. This is why Second Life has no PEGI or ESRB etc rating and why LL has in some way instigated their own rating system and also why LL have always stated that user to user disputes are between the residents and not LL.

In a sense, Second Life is in a grey area as far as regulations of sexual content is involved. That is why I said it all depends on how a company (or person) like Mastercard, Paypal or even Amazon view 'Simulated sexual activity' in relation to Second Life. As far as their ToS's are concerned most adult activities in Second Life would be against them, however are LL responsible for that or because of the grey area SL lies, does that enable LL to skirt around it and walk the fine line.

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6 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

That is incorrect and in no way does simulated define to only actual people (you have to look at game definitions and not movie definitions as games are pixels like Second Life is and yes I know SL isn't a game but in this case it would be implied as such). Simulated in its definition means fake or acted out and non distinguishable in whether it refers to RL or Cartoon.

In Australia for example, even R18+ (highest rating before refused classification) games define that simulated sex that is realistic and explicit (basically same as what is in Second Life - animated realistically and explicit in the use of genitalia) is banned. That is for games that are cartoon and not real people as per your definition.

Additionally, games that have that in them are refused classification and cannot be sold. That would mean that by law the definition in Australia of 'simulated sexual activity' applies to cartoon/pixel graphics (such as games or SL) and also is not restricted to banning just for minors but those over 18 as well. Like usual simulated animal sex (cartoon game look) is also banned of which Linden Lab to this day have never banned it in Second Life.

That is federal law over in Australia defining what 'simulated' means in relation to cartoon non real people categories which is basically pixel sex in SL as someone defined it earlier in the thread. The law linked below also goes as far as to highlight that both 'actual' and 'simulated' is banned with regards to depictions (which is defined to art or in this case computer pixels as used in cartoony looking games).

Guidelines for the Classification of Computer Games 2012 (legislation.gov.au)

Of course that is in Australia and not necessarily the case in the USA, however, as we know from the Gacha banning, USA law does not always define what is or isn't allowed.

 

But their own definitions and restrictions contradict themselves.  In the 18+ ratings section on sex.  So, which is it?

Depictions of actual sexual activity are not permitted.

 

Depictions of simulated sexual activity may be permitted.

 

Depictions of simulated sexual activity that are explicit and realistic are not permitted.

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On 8/19/2021 at 2:57 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

Facebooks metaverse has avatars entirely missing everything below the waist line. ROBLOX and others have strong moderation policies.

Should we be worried ?

 

Facebook even bans topless classic art. They're out of touch with reality, part of some deranged cult of human austerity led by their head lizard apparent. How this has been permitted and given so much energy is beyond comprehension, but there it is. Who here wants to become a page in their Fascistbook and let them quietly subvert the rules of global culture with their ridiculous hackish lowbrow aspirations for the world and The Internet?

Quote

image.jpg
Billionaires See VR as a Way to Avoid Radical Social Change
Tech oligarchs are encouraging the creation of virtual worlds as a cheap way to avoid problems in the real one.


"...the virtual world will be one owned and controlled by the companies that create them. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a Facebook-branded set of VR goggles strapped to an emaciated human face—forever."
(from https://www.wired.com/story/billionaires-use-vr-avoid-social-change/)

962d4b13_62b7_47fa_ba02_a212a5a947d3.0.j

 

Now they want the Metaverse, too? In what lost fever pipe dream delusionary nightmare reality would anyone let people like that control the meta, much less culture? I mean, who are you even kidding? Is this some joke? Are we on candid camera? What's going on here? I'm waiting for the punchline. No, really.  Hello? Is this thing on? *thump thump* testing, one two three. Hello. Hello?

Rangers | A Scot in Sweden

Where is everyone?

Edited by tailpa
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2 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

But their own definitions and restrictions contradict themselves.  In the 18+ ratings section on sex.  So, which is it?

Depictions of actual sexual activity are not permitted.

 

Depictions of simulated sexual activity may be permitted.

 

Depictions of simulated sexual activity that are explicit and realistic are not permitted.

No they do not contradict. R18+ states that actual is not permitted but simulated may be. For example showing a sexual act that portrays or implies sexual acts but do not show actual sexual acts. No classification states that simulated realistic or explicit acts are banned which is what second life is, i.e. realistically animated in full detail and explicit meaning showing genitalia etc.

There is no contradiction you just need to know the differences in what they are defining.

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3 hours ago, tailpa said:

Facebook even bans topless classic art. They're out of touch with reality, part of some deranged cult of human austerity led by their head lizard apparent. How this has been permitted and given so much energy is beyond comprehension, but there it is. Who here wants to become a page in their Fascistbook and let them quietly subvert the rules of global culture with their ridiculous hackish lowbrow aspirations for the world and The Internet?

962d4b13_62b7_47fa_ba02_a212a5a947d3.0.j

 

Now they want the Metaverse, too? In what lost fever pipe dream delusionary nightmare reality would anyone let people like that control the meta, much less culture? I mean, who are you even kidding? Is this some joke? Are we on candid camera? What's going on here? I'm waiting for the punchline. No, really.  Hello? Is this thing on? *thump thump* testing, one two three. Hello. Hello?

Rangers | A Scot in Sweden

Where is everyone?

I feel like FB wants to make their metaverse more business oriented. LL tried that and it was a failure. Why would you want to log into a new client that has higher hardware requirements when you can just use something like Zoom or a phone?

And who is going to want to log into a platform that is obsessed with gathering as much information about you to be in a virtual world? It's the most fake virtual world you can have, "log in and have a cartoon represent you while we harvest as much real life data about you as possible".

SL is the complete opposite of FaceBook. SL is about leaving your first life behind and exploring possibilities, FB is about getting you to submit as much information to them as possible. LL has gone down the remove adult content or isolate it path before and it didn't work. It's not going anywhere unless someone forces LL to do it. Some countries like Australia think cartoon images are the same as real life, it could be banned there, some countries don't. Groups usually use the issue of minors being exploited to remove adult content from platforms. If this ever became an issue, it would be country-specific and depend on if the country thinks there's a difference between fictional pornography or not.

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While this might be litigated in court someday to set actual laws, years of working with Visa/MC have taught me one thing;

Those laws or future ligation mean nothing to them. This is not about morals or what's right or wrong or even what's sensible. They will enforce their rules however they want and are under no obligation to enforce them evenly. They can be as arbitrary and confusing as they want, and they are also under no obligation in the processing agreements to tell people why they were banned from processing their cards. 

I can't speculate on what that does or doesn't mean for SL.

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On 8/20/2021 at 10:00 PM, ananoelle said:

MMOs yes have 100s .. thousands even but sitting across many different servers put a hundred in combat at one time on your screen and there will be someone if not half the lobby with lag I guarantee it .. fornite is no exception to this lol .. that's pvp.. ever played a high round zombie game in cod then wipe the train with a wonder weapon bets are you're going to lose your connection .. that's pve .... there are so many other factors to consider with lag. What hardware you have.. is it up to date ... your ISP... and so on .. SL I'm sorry, is a bit more then standing at a hub looking through a inventory js ..  

Alright so my understanding of how MMOs architecture work and are built is severely lacking. I get it.

My point is; SL tech can be better than what we currently have. If they want SL to include those FPS experiences, or fantasy game experiences it has to improve to handle things better.

I haven't done meter combat in a long time but last I check there's a few still around like CSS, DCS and Gorean meters. If you ever get in a big battle with those meters things just get lagged to hell and back even if you got a great PC.

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On 8/22/2021 at 3:30 PM, Bitterthorn said:

While this might be litigated in court someday to set actual laws, years of working with Visa/MC have taught me one thing;

Those laws or future ligation mean nothing to them. This is not about morals or what's right or wrong or even what's sensible. They will enforce their rules however they want and are under no obligation to enforce them evenly. They can be as arbitrary and confusing as they want, and they are also under no obligation in the processing agreements to tell people why they were banned from processing their cards. 

I can't speculate on what that does or doesn't mean for SL.

Well since you worked with them I'll ask this. Does a lot of this stuff also apply to bank cards using their logo or is it just their credit cards only? I think one of the reasons I am not to worried about it is because even if it effects making purchases on SL then that will also mean it has to bleed on over to Steam because there are a lot of adult games or games with adult content in them on that platform. They block that platform then they are pretty much slicing their own throats at that point. lol😎

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The big problem as I see it is, there are 3 or 4 big corporations telling us what  we can and cannot buy.

I understand going after trafficking and child porn and things like that, But who is to say what is next?

That's a lot of control for just a few big players to have over the world.

I believe the word for it is oligopoly.

They can just trample over all kinds of freedoms, like they aren't even there.. They should have some sort of regulations put on them to where they don't have such overwhelming control.

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6 hours ago, Velk Kerang said:

Well since you worked with them I'll ask this. Does a lot of this stuff also apply to bank cards using their logo or is it just their credit cards only? I think one of the reasons I am not to worried about it is because even if it effects making purchases on SL then that will also mean it has to bleed on over to Steam because there are a lot of adult games or games with adult content in them on that platform. They block that platform then they are pretty much slicing their own throats at that point. lol😎

It affects all cards branded with MasterCard including Co-branded debit cards. Visa will always follow suit. You do not get blocked from one and not the other. The same goes for Amex, Discover, Diners Club, JBC, etc. In my industry we all look to MasterCard to set the standard, and all of those companies share data. Even many direct bank transfer options like Venmo, Bancontact, Klarna, Sofort, etc will link themselves up alongside a credit card processer company and default to whatever restrictions placed by those credit cards. 

Treatment is not consistent across the board either. Visa/MC are likely to be pretty eager to work with something like Steam to bring them into compliance because their storefront brings in a ton of money. Same with a big company like Amazon, or Apple, or Google. I'm not sure Tilia (and by extension second life) would have the same bargaining power but I don't see their financials. I'm sure Linden Labs and their investors keep on top of this. Point being; dont count on it being consistent at all. They will not enforce their rules evenly or worry about a slippery slope. They will pick and choose based on dozens of factors who gets the carrot, and who gets the stick.

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I doubt it, alot of video games have sex in  it. Witcher, Assassins creed, GTA, and other rated M products. Second life just needs to just need to quit branching out as a "Open world game", and just have rated Mature. That's all they would have to do to quit all this nonsense they deal with.

Edit: As in, start treating Second Life as a Video game. Meaning Second life must have a Rating for an appropriate audience. Second life already advertise the rest of their game pretty good, open world genre and job simulator. 

And before I get hit with the excuse, second life offers "General", "Moderate", or "Adult" regions. This is not the same as a video game ratings. Some families will not let their children at the ages 13-17 years old even on a G rated region. Second life's way to pretend to be "PG-13" which isn't the same when you can see sex in that region. It just does not work, this is also probably why twitched banned them. No video game rating.

For example, imagine on Twitch or Facebook streaming this game that's supposeably advertised for 13-30 year olds. It's just too big of a gap, you can have one stream doing football games which would be rated PG-13. Then you'd have another stream about strip clubs. It's just to ambiguous for one category. Just make it all rated M.

Edited by Rob Huntsman
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34 minutes ago, Rob Huntsman said:

I doubt it, alot of video games have sex in  it. Witcher, Assassins creed, GTA, and other rated M products. Second life just needs to just need to quit branching out as a "Open world game", and just have rated Mature. That's all they would have to do to quit all this nonsense they deal with.

Edit: As in, start treating Second Life as a Video game. Meaning Second life must have a Rating for an appropriate audience. Second life already advertise the rest of their game pretty good, open world genre and job simulator. 

And before I get hit with the excuse, second life offers "General", "Moderate", or "Adult" regions. This is not the same as a video game ratings. Some families will not let their children at the ages 13-17 years old even on a G rated region. Second life's way to pretend to be "PG-13" which isn't the same when you can see sex in that region. It just does not work, this is also probably why twitched banned them. No video game rating.

For example, imagine on Twitch or Facebook streaming this game that's supposeably advertised for 13-30 year olds. It's just too big of a gap, you can have one stream doing football games which would be rated PG-13. Then you'd have another stream about strip clubs. It's just to ambiguous for one category. Just make it all rated M.

I'm not sure I understand what a game rating of M will mean for us in SL who want the option of General-rated regions.  Could you explain?

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On 8/21/2021 at 10:02 PM, xxVi3perxx said:

I think it would be better to reduce the amount of problems with the payment info on file even to use any of the SL viewers service until Government ID is shown via help ticket at least it would stop the grief problem and other problems at least.  They would be able to login via the SL website but not use any viewer until verified. In the mean time its on SL to handle it properly with it. 

On 8/22/2021 at 1:57 AM, Prokofy Neva said:

We had to provide government ID as proof of age as a credit card doesn't show your age.

Does anybody remember Aristotle Integrity? That was the outfit the Lab had doing "age verification" as part of the Adult content migration of which Zindra was a part. For a lot of us, they could verify age based on RL identity supplied with payment info. Some had to go further (IIRC, especially those not using US banks but others too) and supply copies of actual government ID. So I think experiences varied.

It was pretty much a disaster. I mean, they probably did fine with 99% of identities or something, but whatever it was it wasn't good enough and they eventually abandoned the whole thing in favor of provisionally accepting self-stated age, same as nearly every other online experience was doing already. Frankly, I suspect Aristotle sold the Lab a bill of goods, which was pretty easy to do back then (remember 80/20 Studio and Viewer 2?). Let's hope the new guys are smarter.

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5 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

I'm not sure I understand what a game rating of M will mean for us in SL who want the option of General-rated regions.  Could you explain?

Just because a game is rated M overall, doesn't mean you can't experience the minor things. For example, yes GTA had sex, prostitutes, heists, and other naughty things for a rated M game. However, GTA also has taxi service. Just because you can also be a professional Taxi driver in GTA and keep your game on GTA a general rated experience does not earn the rating of E for everyone. Second life, cannot expect the same with their General or even Moderate regions. It just doesn't work. It all needs to be rated M for mature.

So in short what I'm saying is in M rated games you as a player can make the experience the way you want it to be. Yes you can keep the content clean, but the game has the potential of being something far more mature then you're playing it as.

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On 8/21/2021 at 11:45 AM, Jax Leeder said:

It's silly to compare the content produced and made available on Only Fans to the content produced and made available in Second Life. The former involves real life people and the latter are pixels.

In a way Only Fans could be seen as acting as a modern day pimp - with something to suit all tastes.

If anything the advertising of "extra services" like cam/voice sessions in exchange currency (virtual or otherwise) may come under scrutiny.

That is exactly how I see it.

The maximum that could happen to us in Second Life:

1. Prohibition of prostitution inworld
2. Prohibition of advertising adult content inworld (i.e on Adboards)
3. Shut down of Zindra
4. Age verification to access adult content (on private estates)

I would welcome all of this, as I would start to make ***** lots of money. I would make even more money, if they'd banned all adult content alltogether.

/me looks if "Capone" is available as a last name....

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58 minutes ago, Caroline Takeda said:

3. Shut down of Zindra
4. Age verification to access adult content (on private estates)

I assume the post is mostly in jest, but why would there be any difference between Zindra and Adult private estates? Originally "age verification" applied identically to both (as well as other SL Adult rated content including web profiles, Marketplace, etc).

Of course age verification proved quite impractical and was soon enough abandoned, but maybe the surveillance state has become more effective in the intervening decade.

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On 8/21/2021 at 2:05 PM, Quistess Alpha said:

As far as I can see it only does single-person experiences. The second you add more than two~3 avatars it's probably going to chug, and taking it to an online interactive experience would add a whole load more complexity.

Avatars like this (with fairly good customization and clothing) ... in spaces with 150+ people and no lag ... in large editable and customizable landscapes ... that are 5-10x bigger than a sim (and far more easily landscaped than SLs tools) ... in an environment that looks this good. And sex without poseballs, too :)

The technology is there. This is the work of a only handful of devs, imagine what a team of 40 could accomplish?

1-avatar.thumb.jpg.aaa8c750ba678c117edccb9b8c65fb44.jpg

2-club.jpg

3-island.jpg

4-sim.jpg

5-landscape.jpg

Edited by Sapphire Dakota
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7 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Yeah, no - not happening, Sapphire. It's been explained in this thread and others over the years.

Read. Listen. Understand. Accept. Move on.

I'm not saying it's happening here. Where'd I say that? What I'm saying is that it is possible, this kind of environment, in a direct reply to Quintess' early post.

Or did you not read, sweetie?

Edited by Sapphire Dakota
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8 hours ago, Rob Huntsman said:

I doubt it, alot of video games have sex in  it. Witcher, Assassins creed, GTA, and other rated M products. Second life just needs to just need to quit branching out as a "Open world game", and just have rated Mature. That's all they would have to do to quit all this nonsense they deal with.

Edit: As in, start treating Second Life as a Video game. Meaning Second life must have a Rating for an appropriate audience. Second life already advertise the rest of their game pretty good, open world genre and job simulator. 

And before I get hit with the excuse, second life offers "General", "Moderate", or "Adult" regions. This is not the same as a video game ratings. Some families will not let their children at the ages 13-17 years old even on a G rated region. Second life's way to pretend to be "PG-13" which isn't the same when you can see sex in that region. It just does not work, this is also probably why twitched banned them. No video game rating.

For example, imagine on Twitch or Facebook streaming this game that's supposeably advertised for 13-30 year olds. It's just too big of a gap, you can have one stream doing football games which would be rated PG-13. Then you'd have another stream about strip clubs. It's just to ambiguous for one category. Just make it all rated M.

Yeah GTA is not for kids trust me I play it was shocked in GTA V story mode with some of the crap Trevor pulls. Video game ratings are important but I think parents just don't care on what their kids see or care to look into a game that is kid friendly. 

I don't even think SL should be kid friendly either

Edited by xxVi3perxx
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35 minutes ago, Sapphire Dakota said:

I'm not saying it's happening here. Where'd I say that? What I'm saying is that it is possible, this kind of environment, in a direct reply to Quintess' early post.

Or did you not read, sweetie?

I read. Perhaps you ought to do so a few more times.

I'll save you the trouble however: Such is only possible in content controlled, highly optimized environments at present. You are not going to get upwards of a hundred or more users in the exact same space while allowing for truly customized content. Not with present tech. At all.

So again: Read. Listen. Accept. Move on.

Further responses won't be required - I am not at all interested in having any sort of discourse with anyone who actually believes the level of customization available to Second Life (and the more recent but still decidedly different VRC and Neos) is possible while allowing "hundreds" of avatars to exist in the same region.

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