How much complexity is normal for an average avatar?

[liberty4us]

Hi all,

I asked myself this question yesterday because I bought a new dress that doubles my complexity. Normally I have a complexity of about 30,000 and this dress alone has a complexity of over 32,000, which I find very extreme. So my question is, is there a number that gives an approximate tolerable value?

Since most of my friends are men and they seem to have a higher complexity "by nature", at least in terms of appearance (no offense, guys ), no one has really been able to help me out and I have searched in vain for the topic here in the forum.

What do you think about it?

[Anna Nova]

Anyone over 100,000 is just a blob to me.... Good job I don't like gorillas (aka males in SL) much anyway (take offence if you want to...).

My theory is that male avatars almost all have very complex scripted mesh objects attached to them that female avatars don't need.

 

[liberty4us]

Thank you for your answer, Anna. It has already helped me a lot. Fortunately, we do not have to worry about men's problems, lol

[Marianne Little]

I read that complexity of 80 000 was a limit people should avoid getting over.

But it is a long time ago, when we got the "Jelly dolls". I read it on the forum, maybe someone with a better memory can help.

Male bodies are higher in complexity than female.

The age of the accessories is often what tips the complexity over in red numbers. Modern made mesh is so much better. I wear glasses, hat, hair, earrings, necklace, 2 piece suit and heels with many details like gemstones. Plus the Maitreya without added layers and Lelutka Evo x. All this is 34 990 complexity.

I would say that a 32 000 complexity dress would fit well in under 80 000 as long as you do not use high complexity accessories. My guess is that the dress has details like flexi or fur that look "realistic" and is not coarse fur.

[Orwar]

2 hours ago, Anna Nova said:

Good job I don't like gorillas (aka males in SL) much anyway (take offence if you want to...).

   Offense taken. Huffs.

3 hours ago, liberty4us said:

So my question is, is there a number that gives an approximate tolerable value?

   It depends on how intricate the designs are. A simple T-shirt shouldn't be more than ~2,000-4,000, add a meshed collar to make a polo shirt and you'd have to add some, a meshed breast pocket and you'd have to add some more - a complex ball gown with folds and bows and whatnots could well require a fair bit more. However, in reality it's more a matter of mesh design choices, or rather avoiding doing terrible ones; there are plenty of shirts with ~50K complexity which could easily have contained less than a tenth of that if it were better meshed.

   An example from personal experience is when it comes to rings, I've had ones that add ~40K complexity per hand - now I've found a brand which consistently puts out rings with ~1.2-2K complexity (and that are script-free and modifiable, to boot). It's not because the rings are any less complex in their design, but has everything to do with how they've been meshed.

   In the end though, it's going to have to be the user's decision. Personally I seldom leave the house with more than somewhere between 25K and 35K complexity, but if I'm dolling my avies up for taking a picture, the complexity isn't a concern. If you want to wear a dress with that high a complexity, perhaps you could compromise by reducing your accessories' complexity - but on the other hand, you don't dictate how high complexity other people around you permit (personally I'm generous enough to allow up to 65K whilst in my 'clubbing' setting, but my 'shopping' setting is 30K - and usually coupled with 'Show Friends Only' if the event/store is busy). 

   TL:DR - If any attachment is >4-5K complexity, it's time to ask whether it's A) worth it and B) appropriately complex for its purposes (i.e. 'I want to look pretty for others' vs. 'half the people around me see me as a jelly doll, so the dress can't be seen anyways but only serves to make it so that people can't see me at all'). 

[liberty4us]

Thank you Marianne for your assessment. I think you're guessing right with the details.

And thank you Orwar for the detailed explanation, I agree with you there. However, it is rather not my goal to look good for others.

[Alwin Alcott]

3 hours ago, Anna Nova said:

Anyone over 100,000 is just a blob to me.... Good job I don't like gorillas (aka males in SL) much anyway (take offence if you want to...).

My theory is that male avatars almost all have very complex scripted mesh objects attached to them that female avatars don't need.

 

ehm yeah.. a certain male thing, when worn just raises complexity with nearly .60.000... the newer different brand wobbly promo whats seen at many places doesn't (!)

[Orwar]

6 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

ehm yeah.. a certain male thing, when worn just raises complexity with nearly .60.000... the newer different brand wobbly promo whats seen at many places doesn't (!)

   Which is just yet another reason one shouldn't wear it when out and about .. It's easy enough to add it when you need it.

[Alwin Alcott]

2 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   Which is just yet another reason one shouldn't wear it when out and about .. It's easy enough to add it when you need it.

i had to test my response inworld first no reason at all to wear it all the time ( for most )

[Ayeleeon]

7 hours ago, Anna Nova said:

My theory is that male avatars almost all have very complex scripted mesh objects attached to them that female avatars don't need.

I am sure this is a contributing factor, but is also true that over time complexity has gone down as makers have gotten better at producing clothing, and females are more likely to have the latest clothes, which typically will be lower.

[Manu Mysterious]

Almost 30.000, but no sex attachments. 

[Velk Kerang]

7 hours ago, Anna Nova said:

Anyone over 100,000 is just a blob to me.... Good job I don't like gorillas (aka males in SL) much anyway (take offence if you want to...).

My theory is that male avatars almost all have very complex scripted mesh objects attached to them that female avatars don't need.

 

I'm offended too mate. lol It's Netflix and ice cream time now.👍😁😜😎

[Coffee Pancake]

Avatar Rendering Cost (ARC) is deeply flawed to the point of being arbitrary. It has been on the Linden scrap pile for years with a project in the wings to replace it .. that is stalled.

The scores have almost no baring on how much of a performance impact any avatar in a scene actually has.

50,000, 80,000, 350,000 .. in practical real terms, It's a big number that's only useful purpose is to single people out.

Why are the numbers being cited nice round numbers? Because people like round numbers .. which should tell you everything you need to know about how relevant those numbers are to the computer doing the actual work.

The number of rigged objects worn by an avatar is what matters (not just attachments as an attachment can be made of many rigged objects), everything else is practically incidental unless you're on low end hardware.

A high ARC value may indicate someone has lots of rigged stuff .. but it might easily mean something far less relevant. It's a guide and not something to make meaningful decisions on.

 

Turn them off.

Don't display them over people's heads.

 

Do you really want a vague and easily misunderstood number to subconsciously bias you against someone you have likely never interacted?

 

If you care about having a performant avatar. Wear a BoM ONLY body that does not support showing/hiding sections via a HUD.

 

[MrsSeren]

I average in a basic outfit with my usual add ons (my RLV necklace, spanker and feel her curves) from anything to 40,000 to 60,000K, I seldom break past 120,000 complexity if I do because I added something very old from my inventory on but that rare. 

[Nalates Urriah]

ACI/ARC is an arbitrary number. It is also variable depending on your computer. Variable in the sense you will get different values based on your hardware. So my ACI for an outfit can be different than the ACI you viewer calcs.

The idea being that your computer calcs the ACI and limits what it will render. So, it makes sense it should be based on what your computer can handle.

It does get more complex as now that information is sent to the servers and the servers give your viewer a hint on how to calc ACI... at least that was the direction is was headed.

Thinking that you need to have a low ACI for the benefit of others sounds noble. But, if someone sets their ACI limit at 4,000 ... and if lots of people do that because they have lame computers then do I need to keep my ACI <4,0000? I don't think so. ACI is so I can adjust my appearance to what I like and people with weak computers can avoid rendering me by setting their ACI limit. We both get what we want. But, trying to make others happy is not mandatory and is a practical impossibility.

Average numbers for SL are hard to come by. Occasionally the Lab will publish numbers. Otherwise there are very few numbers you can count on. Most are opinions based on small samples. Many opinions are way misleading.

I find it pretty easy to stay below 120,000 and have a good number of <80,000 outfits. While I used to set my ACI limit at 150,000 now I usually leave it the max 350,000.

[Hunter Stern]

I'm so glad I'm a spider (and not a gorilla ). My numbers vary (a high range for me is at about 100k and tells me I might have too much going on) but stays generally low ensuring everyone that hasn't manually derendered me, gets to enjoy  my complexity .

[Janet Voxel]

I think you're going to find a pretty big range because a lot of it depends on what you're wearing.

30-40k is about average for me.

Some hair and jewelry can shoot it up to 100k, that's my high side.

I usually keep my max complexity at around 150k in my viewer.

[PermaRuthed]

It's good to be basic:

[Pussycat Catnap]

I set my limit at 80,000.

But Complexity is a deeply flawed formylar. As @NiranV Dean shows in their viewer - the formular LL uses begins with bad assumptions, that it then lets you cheat on...

What you really need to do if concerned here is inspect items for their polygon counts.

When you do that you will start to really understand why there is so much lag when some people are around, and none when others are around - despite their complexity scores being equal or the less laggy person even being higher...

 

Some very popular items in SL have more polygons in that single avatar than the entire game of World of Warcraft has ever used in it's full 16 year history... (I'm only slightly exaggerating here. Two of the popular human mesh bodies in SL are insane here, and if I recall right one of them tops 1 million polygons with several hundred thousand in the feet alone...) 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Pussycat Catnap

[Lewis Luminos]

Typically I'll be under 40k, but I don't start to get concerned unless an outfit goes over 100k. The usual culprit for me is old shoes; my favourite pair of sneakers weighs in at around 30k per shoe. I don't wear them very often these days. I keep my own viewer settings at 350k; I find that the complexity of avatars has far less effect than the number of avatars.

[LittleMe Jewell]

I try to keep myself under 50k.  Unless I am some place where I specifically want to see the people around me, I keep my setting so that anyone over 60k is a blob.  If I want to see people's outfits, I'll bump it to anywhere from 100k to 150k, but never higher. Except those few random times when I notice that someone is > 1,000,000 -- I'll often bump my setting long enough to see why they are so high and maybe take a picture.

[Coffee Pancake]

14 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

What you really need to do if concerned here is inspect items for their polygon counts.

When you do that you will start to really understand why there is so much lag when some people are around, and none when others are around - despite their complexity scores being equal or the less laggy person even being higher...

That's what we all thought .. turns out, if you have a reasonably modern graphics card the poly count isn't the problem.

The number of rigged objects (and attachments can be many objects) is such a huge drain everything else is just painting the viewer different shades of red to see which makes it faster.

I'm not saying high poly models aren't bad and entirely unsuitable for a real time environment, but the render time is a drop in the ocean next to iterating over every object one by one when processing avatar animations.

 

Mesh bodies with alpha sections that can be toggled on and off are especially bad. A mesh object can only have 8 faces. Add up all the toggleable sections a body allows, divide by 8, that's how many rigged meshes are needed to make it work .. times that number for each onion skin layer and bam, so many rigged meshes and you're not even dressed yet.

 

It's never that one thing or that one person is making it bad, it's death by a thousand cuts. That one person is just the straw that broke the camels back.

[Ghostwitness]

Having recently returned from a six year break I find myself with old clothing/accessories with a complexity of 125000 to 150000 depending on what I try to wear. 

No prim items on me, although my inventory is full of prim and high complexity mesh clothing.

Not wanting to dish out a ton of money, I’ve gone with a $L1 Altamura bento body and parts. My clothes need a complete revamp.

Where is a guy to go for low complexity clothes at discount prices that will work on my discount body?

[Wulfie Reanimator]

On 8/11/2021 at 8:06 PM, Nalates Urriah said:

It is also variable depending on your computer. Variable in the sense you will get different values based on your hardware. So my ACI for an outfit can be different than the ACI you viewer calcs.

I recall this being the case in the past, and I believe viewers still report ARC to the server so it's technically possible, but last time I went through the ARC algorithm, i saw no "personal variables" based on your own computer's capabilities. The cost was flatly calculated, and beyond silly in how easy it's to misuse both ways.

It's a completely worthless system.

[Nalates Urriah]

Using my laptop with CPU only graphics and my desktop with NVIDIA I get different vales for ACI.

I disagree that it is worthless system. Those ACI and ARC systems got people thinking about the complexity of their avatars. That has value.

If you mean it is an imprecise system, then yes, it is that. But, it is something.