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New Gacha Policy Discussion


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1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

But removing Gachas style products from S/L are not going to cure the 10% who have such an addiction but only send them off on a hunt for a substitution.

That is an argument for the folks that create the laws --- if they are creating the law to deal with gambling addiction.

The issue has nothing to do with LL removing Gachas.

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3 minutes ago, ARD1994 said:

A lot of people talk about addiction with gacha machines saying is an addiction ect ect.....but when you spend all your salary for buy lindens and wear your avatar into the regular events/shops where you choose what you buy is an addiction too? So why then LL dont put a limit of lindens that you can buy monthly??? Because Linden don t care about your addictions......so please stop say that gacha is addiction because for what i see all SL is an addiction just we have to be honest and don t say that who use to play gacha are addicted when there is people who don t even buy bread because they have to go to the last event for buy clothes/hair/shoes, gachas Washington another way to do business like the other just Was a plus that you can resell what you don t like and like this can give the chance to earn some linden to who don t know how to use 3D software....i hope that someone will find some way to continue this business in other ways at least everybody will be happy and for who don t like nobody force people to do or to buy Nothing....love ya all

They can be addictive but that is NOT the reason for the ban.  

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1 hour ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I don't see the need to be precise, just ban the twerps when they try to toe the line. Not only is toeing the rules breaking the rules, but rules are there to give us guidelines, it doesn't mean they exist to restrict what Linden Lab can do.

Yes, but when many people ask about almost the exact same one or two things, it is just easier on LL to specify those specific things and flat out say Yes or No.

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Just now, LittleMe Jewell said:

That is an argument for the folks that create the laws --- if they are creating the law to deal with gambling addiction.

The issue has nothing to do with LL removing Gachas.

The whole debate about who thinks it's gambling or not is totally beside the point.  

I'm wondering if this thread has pretty much run it's course.  

 

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1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

we can make these kinds of games already and they are allowed. We just have to mount them on Skill Gaming regions when they are pay-to-play

Actually I was curious and looked more closely into the policy. Not only do you have to mount said games on a Skill-gaming region, but both the skill-gaming region's owner and the the creator of the skill game need to go through an approval process. Currently there are 66 or so approved games, and 47 approved skill-game operators. (assuming the wiki is accurate and up-to-date) you can see a list here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Approved_Participants

Edited by Quistess Alpha
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12 minutes ago, Chris Nova said:

I would assume since they already have the files for the mesh, all they have to do is upload. Still mad time consuming having to do all that work though. Some places really do have hundreds of gachas. I feel bad for Bee Designs.

You don't need to do that. If the gacha's assets are already on the asset server, you can just reconfigure their permissions, slap them into a vendor or onto the MP and call it a day (or go onto the next one).

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11 hours ago, Chris Nova said:

Oh, I wouldn't know. I'm not a creator. I just assumed creators had saved files of their mesh on their computers haha.

A gacha merchant like any other merchant has all their merchandise totally ready in their in world inventory. Otherwise they can't put it up in world in a gacha or vendor.

What they have to do if they want to make a fatpack for the marketplace:
Put all the items in a named folder, check if the permissions are set correctly and drop the folder in the marketplace folder.

The rest of the marketplace work is done with the PC on the marketplace website.  And takes about 5 - 10 minutes to finalize. Depending how much time and effort you put in the descriptions.
The pictures of those items are already on their computers because there are already pictures in the gacha.
And then it is: push the final button and it is on the marketplace like forever. Let the money roll in (or not) .

Edited by Sid Nagy
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2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

That is an argument for the folks that create the laws --- if they are creating the law to deal with gambling addiction.

The issue has nothing to do with LL removing Gachas.

No I suppose not but part of the point for me is how far the Lab is going to go any time some country passes some law that S/L is contravening. With all the laws of all the different countries out there, Secondlife pretty well needs to roll up the carpet and unplug the servers because surely there is a law in timbuktu that makes it all illegal.

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  • Moderators

Greetings, All! 

Please try to keep comments On Topic for the Gacha Policy Change.  Discussions about addiction and other such topics and speculation should not be posted in this thread.  

Thank you!

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1 hour ago, Elvina Ewing said:

I understand that i will have to remove all of them. I really really really don't want to retire those items!! What choice do i have as a creator? I got a lot of hate and harassment in the past for making rares and ultras available for a high price in my store as a limited pack. I had to remove them all, and that was the main reason i decided to put those gacha machines back out in my store.

Would it be ok to offer the same old gacha items as copy/mod/ no trans version for a normal price in the store? Or will i be harassed and badmouthed for doing that again?

Someone else brought up the fact that for some of the Gacha events, creators had to agree to never sell the items as regular store items - and I mentioned all of that also, early in this thread.   

However, given that the original creators will no longer be allowed to sell the items as Gachas, I think that invalidates any specific or perceived agreement about not selling them as non-Gachas.  

Thus, I say "Go for it" and the heck with anyone that reams you about it.

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1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

So to me ........................

As has been said so many times, none of our opinions matter on whether or not Gachas should be legal, or whether or not Gachas are 'gambling'.  If you are not part of LL's internal or external legal team, then you opinion on it doesn't matter either. 

Arguing the merits of the laws and what they apply to should be done elsewhere.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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1 hour ago, Finite said:

SL Gacha. Paying 50L (21cents) for an item I can clearly see listed on a box. Similar to a gumball machine which actually costs more. Sorry that I disagree with your opinion while acknowledging that you disagree with mine. And I am sorry that you and others seem to have issues with people who disagree with your point of view.

I don't have an issue with anyone's opinion on whether or not Gacha is gambling.

I have an issue with people trying to change LL's decision --- which is based on legal advice --- simply because they don't agree with the decision.

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23 minutes ago, Chris Nova said:

Thats nice. Multiply that 5 mins times 100 or more. Your one single item is laughable against creators who now need to upload HUNDREDS of gacha fatpacks (assuming they do fatpacks).

But not all of those hundreds of gacha's sets will be equally profitable. Most sales will come from a relatively small number of sets. So you just convert those and then you wait to see what other sets the customers request and work through those as well. Maybe release a couple each week.

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3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

That sounds like, "I'm going to take all my toys and go home since I can't have my way."   I honestly can't see the motivation behind leaving SL because of it. 

But isn't that exactly what the anti gacha crowd is doing here?  Isn't that the reason behind many of these posts is that they want their SPECIFIC item and they want it now?  They're upset that they don't get exactly what they want when they want it, so no more gachas because its gambling lol.  They might not leave SL but had the evil machines removed.  

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1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

As has been said so many times, none of our opinions matter on whether or not Gachas should be legal, or whether or not Gachas are 'gambling'.  If you are not part of LL's internal or external legal team, then you opinion on it doesn't matter either. 

Arguing the merits of the laws and what they apply to should be done elsewhere.

I disagree LittleMe as Patch has 2-3 times used posts to clarify the Labs stance on this new rule. Acting like it is all said and done except for the tears is incorrect from what I have been seeing of the official responses.

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2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

with the scarcity idea.  We can create in SL what is referred to elsewhere as a NFT. (non-fungible token)

when a SL prim is rezzed for the first time, it gets a OBJECT_CREATION_TIME stamp

the identifier combination of: OBJECT_NAME + OBJECT_CREATOR + OBJECT_CREATION_TIME is uniquely constant to that item when the item is No-Modify

this can be validated by an external script. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetObjectDetails 

should the item be copybotted then OBJECT_CREATOR and OBJECT_CREATION_TIME will be different to the original, which gives a proof that the copied item is a counterfeit, and would be subject to a DMCA takedown

if the creator were to make a limited set of a work, say 10 for example. Then when we dragcopy to make 10 then they will all have the same identifier

and we could sequentially number the pieces in the Object Description, so that a piece from a limited set is uniquely identifiable to the original buyer, provided that we maintain a record of the sale and the object details

when the pieces are set No-Copy + No-Modify + Transfer then we can allow our customers to participate in the reseller market with our NFT-like works

 

This doesn't stop duplication methods of no-copy content, especially with objects not rezzed/attached in a script enabled region to allow negotiations with a home server upon new/next owner.

There are some deterrents that can be done, but there are still risks to end-users that take possession of duplicated content depending on if someone already "registered" the content ahead of them.

Edited by Lucia Nightfire
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1 minute ago, maddisonave said:

But isn't that exactly what the anti gacha crowd is doing here?  Isn't that the reason behind many of these posts is that they want their SPECIFIC item and they want it now?  They're upset that they don't get exactly what they want when they want it, so no more gachas because its gambling lol.  They might not leave SL but had the evil machines removed.  

Not at all.  I'm not even anti gacha per se since almost never played.  People who.don't like them had nothing to do with having them removed.  It's a legal decision made by LL in light of the changing laws in other countries.

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There's another interesting dynamic in gacha that contradicts the argument that "you always get something so it's not really gambling." Most gacha items would be considered worth more than the pull price if they were sold separately. That's why customers consider them. Therefore, it doesn't make any sense for a merchant to sell with gacha unless the average customer will make several pulls.

If a customer would be equally happy with any item they'd be perfectly willing to stop at one pull and the merchant takes a bath. In order to guarantee the multiple pulls, it behooves the merchant to have a significant number of "filler" items that the customer won't be satisfied with so they keep pulling. The "filler" items won't be that popular in resale either.

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Jian has already converted 3 of their Gacha's to fatpacks for $1,800 each. Seems very reasonable to me as you get everything. This is an example of a creator not whining about how terrible this is and went to work to fix it to benefit them. The still have the Gacha's till Sept 1st but they are easing customers into the new way it will be sold. Great job Jian!

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2 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Jian has already converted 3 of their Gacha's to fatpacks for $1,800 each. Seems very reasonable to me as you get everything. This is an example of a creator not whining about how terrible this is and went to work to fix it to benefit them. The still have the Gacha's till Sept 1st but they are easing customers into the new way it will be sold. Great job Jian!

On my way!

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14 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Someone else brought up the fact that for some of the Gacha events, creators had to agree to never sell the items as regular store items - and I mentioned all of that also, early in this thread.   

However, given that the original creators will no longer be allowed to sell the items as Gachas, I think that invalidates any specific or perceived agreement about not selling them as non-Gachas.  

Thus, I say "Go for it" and the heck with anyone that reams you about it.

It would depend on what the penalty in the agreement was and who the agreement was with.

If the penalty was a fine that could still be an issue. If the penalty was getting banned from that gacha event in the future, not really a problem. If the penalty is getting banned from all events ran by that person/organisation it might be problematic.

Also, there's the question what happens to the other party. If it's a group and that gets disbanded all agreements end. If they go on to do other things, it might still be valid. 

Something for the lawyers.

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29 minutes ago, ARD1994 said:

A lot of people talk about addiction with gacha machines saying is an addiction ect ect.....but when you spend all your salary for buy lindens and wear your avatar into the regular events/shops where you choose what you buy is an addiction too? So why then LL dont put a limit of lindens that you can buy monthly??? Because Linden don t care about your addictions......so please stop say that gacha is addiction because for what i see all SL is an addiction just we have to be honest and don t say that who use to play gacha are addicted when there is people who don t even buy bread because they have to go to the last event for buy clothes/hair/shoes, gachas Was another way to do business like the other just Was a plus that you can resell what you don t like and like this can give the chance to earn some linden to who don t know how to use 3D software....i hope that someone will find some way to continue this business in other ways at least everybody will be happy and for who don t like nobody force people to do or to buy Nothing....love ya all

#1 - LL actually does put limits on how many L$ you can buy in a month and in a 24-hour period.  Go check this page on your account info:  https://accounts.secondlife.com/lindex/economic_limits

#2 - You are possibly correct in that LL doesn't care about your addictions - though you might also be wrong.  However, that does NOT matter because they are doing this for LEGAL reasons, not because someone might or might not be addicted to Gachas.

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3 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

What do you think it could cost LL if they have to go to court in several cases, in several places and the fines they could end up with by not complying to (inter)national laws.
Compared to that outcome the possible loss of a few sims is peanuts.

Some day in the potential near future, S/L may have to consider blocking users from those countries that have enacted laws that conflict with S/L's economy too much. Let the citizens of those countries deal with their lawmakers instead of putting in blanket restrictions over everyone.

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3 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Chicken-littleing at it's finest.

If merchants dependent on gacha cannot adapt to non-gacha selling and leave the grid, abandoning their islands, they will be replaced. The demand for the items they used to sell isn't going anywhere, even if they are. The "bigger" they are, the wider the void they will leave in the market for other creators to move in and become big. These will then be LLs customers for those abandoned private islands etc.

10 years ago the biggest names in fashion, avatar accessories and decor was a different list to what it is today. Only a few of the most business-savvy ones have adapted to all the changes and remained at the top of their respective markets. If SL is still around in another 10 years (which I believe it will be) the list of top sellers in any category will be different again.

You get to be a big merchant in SL by selling successfully to the market as it exists at the time. If that market or the ways you can sell into it change, then so must your business. Or it's over.

A lot of creators left when mesh was introduced.  Some amazing creations.  SL has survived and will again.

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