New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Vesca Starlight]

From what I can guess this seems related to the lootboxes scandal(s) over the past few years, and the many states as well as full countries cracking down on chance mechanics in games or other addictive predatory practices.

As for creators who rely on SL as a source of income, and a large portion of that being gachas I'll just put it out there that is a bit of a weak excuse. The time it takes to make 5+ items to toss into a gacha you could make fewer higher quality (and more expensive) items or even just sell the items individually for a slight markup, and if that doesn't work then perhaps its time to consider there is some truth to the business practices having been predatory.

I don't mean that as a jab or to be rude, but sometimes its important to take a step back and reflect a little, try to see things from another perspective.

[HoneyBear Lovely]

1 minute ago, SativaStaryk said:

If the lucky chair requires you to join a group and that group costing L's to join then you are paying into them. Random prize givers ill give ya

If the ONLY benefit to joining a group is a lucky chair, I'll give ya that. But I haven't found a group like that, thank goodness...nor would I pay to join one if I found it

[Aime Takaaki]

I have a question. What about advent calendars, if we HINT at the items? Would that be allowed? as a whole preoduct is the calendar so they are not gambling.I was planning to make one this year.

[Sid Nagy]

1 minute ago, Lunarei Kiyori said:

I wonder if this has anything to do with international gambling laws getting stricter..

Why else would LL kill off one of the popular activities in SL?

[s2Pandora]

2 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

So I'm not a lawyer but here's some logic and thoughts:

Breedables won't be banned, because the initial purchase is always known and breeding them is free. At least with any of the good ones.

Subscription boxes will have to show previews. Which might actually make me subscribe.

 

 

Biggest reason I won't bother with Powder Pack. I don't want to spend money for a bunch of stuff I won't use. If I know what i'm getting, I just might from time to time.

[Cinos Field]

Just now, Sid Nagy said:

Why else would LL kill off one of the popular activities in SL?

Their consciences.

I mean, I can dream at least.

[m0ld]

My concern is how this will affect creators who only log in once every few months or no longer log in at all. Is there a warning system in place to let creators know that they're in violation of the rules? What about Marketplace listings that automatically give out a random gacha, will those listings be removed or will the entire store be banned? What if a Gacha machine is accidentally left out, say on mainland, and someone reports it? Will it just be returned to inventory? I worry that this may inadvertently cause entire stores and their content to be missing to the void, never able to be purchased again.

[Finite]

Oof real shame. I really enjoyed gachas and cherish the rares I get. However I see the reasoning having been burned by a few times with scripted extremely low odds of getting the rares. Rule probably saved me an equal amount of heartache and joy.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Finite

[Vesca Starlight]

1 minute ago, m0ld said:

My concern is how this will affect creators who only log in once every few months or no longer log in at all. Is there a warning system in place to let creators know that they're in violation of the rules? What about Marketplace listings that automatically give out a random gacha, will those listings be removed or will the entire store be banned? What if a Gacha machine is accidentally left out, say on mainland, and someone reports it? Will it just be returned to inventory? I worry that this may inadvertently cause entire stores and their content to be missing to the void, never able to be purchased again.

I'm actually a bit worried about that too, hopefully they'll be able to check how old a listing or object is and factor that into the issue. I don't think people who had stuff out prior should be penalized, just have the offending thing taken down or removed.

[Doja Amore]

1 hour ago, VicariousSally said:

What about gacha resellers through marketplace? How will this impact our MP as its NOT a chance sell like the gacha machine itself....

WSell seems like it be more seller now sense gacha machine be taken out ijs now folks going go mp to find these items.. best go get all gacha u can till thenn ijs folks be smart.

[diamond Marchant]

1 hour ago, Linden Lab said:

For details about our new policy change regarding gacha, read our blog post. 

For further questions, please join the conversation in this post. 

We would appreciate hearing about why a "changing regulatory climate" makes it necessary to outlaw Gatcha. One would assume that this is a consequence of the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 (UIGEA). The intent there was to make it illegal to gamble on the internet.... but how is "gambling" defined? The law includes the following as a definition of betting...purchasing an "opportunity" to win a lottery. Is that what a Gatcha is? Is it some sort of illegal lottery.

In Gatcha, one pays real money to receive a product (not an opportunity). The possible products are known. Depending on the buyer, some have more value than others.  Is this case covered by UIGEA? That would be a huge stretch!

Does this mean that LINDEN HOMEs will also be (in blog language) "sunsetted"?  In the Game of Homes, one pays a recurring fee to gain an opportunity to receive a Linden Home based on chance (assuming there are even any available). Sound familiar?

Tis a slippery slope we stand on!

[SativaStaryk]

7 minutes ago, DeeJay Peapod said:

there is actually plenty of study to show that most of those claw games are rigged like carnival games, thus it removes the "skill" and replaces it with luck

Which is what a gacha is as well

 

[YunaLiah Fang]

But I have a question...even us that we are selling some gacha that we bought at MP, they will be permitted or will be forbidden as well?

[Marie Sims]

It's August, and all of Europe is on vacation. We are creators from eu time zone and we can not re-make all of 300 gacha machines in 25 days. It's crazy decision

[Brinlea]

5 minutes ago, s2Pandora said:

Biggest reason I won't bother with Powder Pack. I don't want to spend money for a bunch of stuff I won't use. If I know what i'm getting, I just might from time to time.

Powder pack changed. It's now run by Velour. In the days leading up to each pack they add pics of what's in it, till you finally can see everything in the pack before you buy it. They are only doing Lelutka packs now.

[Asadora Summers]

 

Even on this page of the thread....

I'm

Still

Happy!

But at the same time, quite concerned at some of the replies from people that aren't aware enough to know that LL had no choice in this. Don't blame LL!
Be thankful you can log on. Because if LL kept on with the gachas, then LL would have went out of business due to having to pay all the legal fees because someone wanted their ultra rare rainbow coloured ash tray.
 

[Patch Linden]

Hey everyone,

I wanted to address a few themes I'm seeing so far.  

One of the bigger one's is 'why'?   As we mentioned in the post, the regulatory climate around these sorts of selling mechanisms abroad have been under scrutiny for some time, as many have also already mentioned.  This includes the formation of some precedence already in place.  We did not make this decision without a lot of thought on the impact this has and sadly we know how burdensome this can be for many.  Through legal guidance, we are giving as much notice as we possibly can, but we also understand that it may not be enough is all cases.  While we will begin enforcement on September 1, we will not start this out with an aggressive approach.  Your account will not be at risk on a first offense basis.  Please don't take that as an opportunity to break the rules until you get caught, but we are committed to taking a proactive approach to any enforcement. 

Next, is some of the comments on the mechanism or the gacha machines themselves.  It is the act of paying for something and in return the item/thing you receive back is based on chance.  The level of chance does not matter, or if you disclose it, including the ratios, percentages, etc, if the output is unknown (chance based in any way), that combination of mechanisms is what will be prohibited moving forward.

I have seen some interesting counter-points to how to handle the sales of the content themselves.  Of course any already purchased gachas will continue to be able to be re-sold by resellers so long as the sales mechanism doesn't use a chance based outcome to give you the item.  Limited quantity items is another that would be perfectly ok to do, so long as the item being represented for purchase is what you receive upon purchase.

As posts are still coming in faster than we can respond to, we will do our best to respond as quickly as we can.

[Toothless Draegonne]

1 minute ago, YunaLiah Fang said:

But I have a question...even us that we are selling some gacha that we bought at MP, they will be permitted or will be forbidden as well?

If you know what you're buying, there's no chance involved. It becomes a standard voucher sale.

[SativaStaryk]

2 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

We would appreciate hearing about why a "changing regulatory climate" makes it necessary to outlaw Gatcha. One would assume that this is a consequence of the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 (UIGEA). The intent there was to make it illegal to gamble on the internet.... but how is "gambling" defined? The law includes the following as a definition of betting...purchasing an "opportunity" to win a lottery. Is that what a Gatcha is? Is it some sort of illegal lottery.

In Gatcha, one pays real money to receive a product (not an opportunity). The possible products are known. Depending on the buyer, some have more value than others.  Is this case covered by UIGEA? That would be a huge stretch!

Does this mean that LINDEN HOMEs will also be (in blog language) "sunsetted"?  In the Game of Homes, one pays a recurring fee to gain an opportunity to receive a Linden Home based on chance (assuming there are even any available). Sound familiar?

Tis a slippery slope we stand on!

TOUCHE'!

[PippaScott]

26 minutes ago, Asadora Summers said:

Legally, I am not sure when it comes to sploders. All I know is that it's a traffic building item that a lot of clubs use.
I wouldn't be butt-hurt if they were the next thing to go. 😁

the voodoo sploder doesnt require cash from anyone but the owner.  its a straight gift.  all it does is divide the linden available between everyone present and signed up.  no players are required to pay in to that one. ergo, no gambling

 

[Darien Martin]

I don't get it as Gatcha's aren't gambling at all, their random raffle items. You get a prize no matter what, and yes if their is a color ya want ya gotta play it allot, but that's how a random raffle would be. I don't understand why their being banned from sl when they are not a form of gambling, as your not winning L$ by any means but in aspect paying for a product. I just don't understand why a  raffle system is now being banned.

[Nikole Messmer]

1 hour ago, VicariousSally said:

What about gacha resellers through marketplace? How will this impact our MP as its NOT a chance sell like the gacha machine itself....

MP listings that are specifying which item you are buying will be fine, so all the resales are acceptable unless it's a "buy a random item" situation. The goal is to eliminate the unknown. If the consumer knows precisely what item they will receive with zero uncertainty or "chance" involved, then it's LL-legal. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

8 minutes ago, Aime Takaaki said:

I have a question. What about advent calendars, if we HINT at the items? Would that be allowed? as a whole preoduct is the calendar so they are not gambling.I was planning to make one this year.

My initial guess is that if someone must pay for each daily gift and the item they are getting is unknown, then it wouldn't be allowed.

Most Advent calendars that I've seen that require paying for the gift show a picture of what that gift is.

 

 

4 minutes ago, YunaLiah Fang said:

But I have a question...even us that we are selling some gacha that we bought at MP, they will be permitted or will be forbidden as well?

The blog post stated that you can re-sell gacha items because the buying knows exactly what they are getting for their money.

[WolfeRiegn]

So let me get this right, you are removing Gacha's because it is quote simulated unquote gambling, but then on the other hand you are turning a blind eye to actual casino sims that are on G Rated sims? What is next? Clubs cannot have events? SL DJ's cannot put out a tip cup?

I mean at the end of the day, people are giving you real world money for lindens so either way you get your cut.

[Cinos Field]

1 minute ago, WolfeRiegn said:

So let me get this right, you are removing Gacha's because it is quote simulated unquote gambling, but then on the other hand you are turning a blind eye to actual casino sims that are on G Rated sims? What is next? Clubs cannot have events? SL DJ's cannot put out a tip cup?

I mean at the end of the day, people are giving you real world money for lindens so either way you get your cut.

If you see a casino in a regular G-rated sim, report it and it's going to be done very quickly. The lindens are pretty quick but not omniscient... yet.