Jump to content

New Gacha Policy Discussion


You are about to reply to a thread that has been inactive for 958 days.

Please take a moment to consider if this thread is worth bumping.

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Raya Darkthorn said:

Not sure but it seems re-selling an old gacha item should be ok as it isnt gambling, you know ahead of time what you are buying, only thing will now be how bloody expensive some RARE & ULTRA RARE items will be now :/

Read Patch's blog post again. Already bought Gacha items can continue being sold on the MP. It's only the Gacha machines themselves that are going.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Velk Kerang said:

Ya because keeping those business owners who spend a lot on the platform we enjoy and keeping the lights on wouldn't make sense at all right? lol And where do you get your numbers from? I'm just curious because that's bold assumption and way off base mate. lol🤦‍♂️

Not a bold statement at all. If the EU and UK are banning it by the end of the year that is basically near all of the western world bar USA, Australia and a handful of other countries. Australia also is introducing legislation this year for it and others have already banned it so that leaves very few places that SL can be accessed from that actually haven't banned them.

As to how many people access Second Life from the USA someone posted the source earlier in this thread so go find it amongst the 77 pages.

Edited by Drayke Newall
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Phew!  They finally are cracking down on this scourge of SL!  The dreaded GACHA addiction!  All these folks plunking down their kids lunch money to try and get that PURPLE TEDDY BEAR WITH A HAT ON IT!   Noooooo!  Not the RED ONE!!!  jeeeeeesus,  now I have THREE OF THEM.  Secondlife needs to get a life.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Not a bold statement at all. If the EU and UK are banning it by the end of the year that is basically near all of the western world bar USA, Australia and a handful of other countries. Australia also is introducing legislation this year for it and others have already banned it so that leaves very few places that SL can be accessed by that actually havnt banned them.

As to how many people access Second Life from the USA someone posted the source earlier in this thread so go find it amongst the 77+ pages.

Here's the only thing I could find. It's not users but visits to SL.com which could be representative. I don't think anyone outside of SL knows for sure since it is a private company and isn't required to divulge that information.

 

 

6a00d8341bf74053ef022ad38f595b200c-800wi.png

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Malin Sabra said:

They aren't prohibited from selling by normal means.

Someone had suggested that because they were Gachas when originally released in world that the only people who should be able to sell them after the changes are implemented would be gacha resellers - that the original creators should be prohibited from selling them even as normal purchases.  Someone else offered a possible excuse for that (when they were part of the event there might have been agreements that they would not sell the pieces as regular sales.)  That does make a certain amount of sense but only under the present rules as it stands right now.  Things are going to change drastically and I think gacha creators should be allowed to continue to sell their items and not be blocked from doing so. 

And it's rather ironic: because if I see a gacha reseller then it's a straight purchase even though they don't have creative rights over the item they're selling.   And because they are only resellers there have been cases where the only thing being sold was an empty box as there were scam artists posing as legit resellers. 

 I hope the creators will offer their old gacha sets for regular sale.  It's their creation and they should be allowed to continue to earn Lindens from the sale of them.   I also don't think that those with gacha related prizes should be prohibited from selling them.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Sweecahcahche Ah said:

 It would be nice if Creators of the Gachas would allow you to buy your missing Gacha Prizes to complete sets. They are going to lose money from having to remove them, so if they were to sell each Gacha Prize for the cost of a Single Play on the Gacha at least then everyone would benefit without being too greedy trying to sell high to make fast money off of previous loyal customers🐸 

It would be nice yes. But I would be happy if the creators continue to sell gacha prizes, period. I would really like if they sold individual prizes and not fatpacks, but it is up to the creator. If he thinks a fatpack costing 5000L will sell... that is his idea.

Edited to add: A creator would sell more if he set his price of the items to undercut gacha resellers. Let us say gacha reseller price is 3000L and the creator sells it for 1000L, people would buy the cheapest one and the money goes to the creator.

But that is just my thought. Again, the creator can set his price to whatever astronomical amount he want. It is his items. But I think it would be smarter to set the price so low that he actually sell some.

Edited by Marianne Little
added the last
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Romy Writer said:

selling an item randomly in a vendor, is the same as selling a gacha. if you don't know what that random item is before you buy it, it would be considered a gacha

That's true up to a point.  

If I look at the gacha key on the machine it gives me all the items that will possibly be given to me if I put my Lindens in to play it.  So while yes, you don't know until you put those Lindens in what prize you will receive with that pull, you do already know the possibilities.  If you don't like most of the possibilities it would be better to just not play the machine or be okay with what items you will receive - because you are guaranteed something.    It's not like you are going to be playing a DRD gacha and a prize from Go! will pop out. 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Master Huldschinsky said:


what about setting up a kind of a ban line around gachas as option that bans users from it if the country not allow gachas (loot boxes) ?

There is no way for LL to police such things. People would abuse the system and just start banning people from 'x' countries on their land because they dont like that country/race/political stance etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote
Just now, Drayke Newall said:

There is no way for LL to police such things. People would abuse the system and just start banning people from 'x' countries on their land because they dont like that country/race/political stance etc.

 

yes but like skill gaming, linden labs set those countries or states that skill gaming is not allowed. so same idea with gachas ban lines after parcel off around the gachas and set the gachas ban line. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/2/2021 at 10:56 AM, Chaser Zaks said:

So for those wondering about a reason, I am pretty sure that I know why:

The whole gacha thing in SL, it has kinda turned into Japanese gambling. Gambling in Japan is illegal if it returns money, so they use pachinko balls instead. Players will buy Pachinko balls(L$), and the pachinko balls(L$) are then in turn used to buy plushes/toys/etc(Gachas), where then in a back alley they will allow you to sell said things for money(Marketplace). That's basically what is going on here. People play gachas, then sell their gachas. It is basically gambling and that is why LL is banning it.

Not quite...that "toy" you exchange in the back alley doesn't wildly fluctuate in price before you get a chance to exchange it for yen.  Speculators drive up the resell price during an event for rares and desirables in a set, and then collectors looking to unload spares drive it down when the items hit the marketplace and the yard sales.  If I were to compare it to something Japanese, I'd compare it to their existing gacha model, which is based on speculation, collectability, and scarcity.

Unless a set is going to be retired, event gachas can be played after an event is over.  Over time the resell price usually drops well below what you'd pay for a similar item by the same creator.  The buyer who doesn't have to have the items the day they're released ultimately benefits from buying the items a few months after the dust has settled.

The things I'll miss most are the weird and beautiful niche items that are created to round some of the sets, and the well known artists who come out of retirement to participate in these events.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Master Huldschinsky said:

yes but like skill gaming, linden labs set those countries or states that skill gaming is not allowed. so same idea with gachas ban lines after parcel off around the gachas and set the gachas ban line. 

It is not a ban line that LL use, that is a mechanic for residents to use. Skill Gaming is restricted by entire regions of which LL control who and who cannot get one. What you are suggesting is for parcel ban lines to be used to restrict access and that is just not feasible.

:EDIT:

Additionally, ban lines do not stop a person from accessing something on that parcel. You can still cam in and select, touch or pay something on that parcel even if you cannot access it by walking on the parcel.

Edited by Drayke Newall
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

It is not a ban line that LL use, that is a mechanic for residents to use. Skill Gaming is restricted by entire regions of which LL control who and who cannot get one. What you are suggesting is for parcel ban lines to be used to restrict access and that is just not feasible.

well they could do a seperate setting in land panel to turn it on or off specifically for the gachas. just like skill gaming , residents has to be in a state/country that allows skill gaming. 

Edited by Master Huldschinsky
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

Why would Linden Lab do this, wasting time and money they could use elsewhere when 90% of the world where 80% of Second Life's userbase reside is looking to ban gacha's and lootboxes etc?

I don't remember ever seeing a poll regarding how SL residents feel about Gachas.  All I do know is that for events like the Arcade and The Epiphany it was incredibly rare and hard to get into those two events the first week their new rounds opened.  And whenever I visit the marketplace there were always a few gacha prizes that came up whenever I was looking for something.  And then there were the yard sale sims and gacha prize  trading groups to help people get the prizes they wanted or get rid of prizes they didn't.   Sounds to me that even if people said they loathed them, they still played them.    But of course, I could be wrong. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Yhishara Cerise said:

I don't remember ever seeing a poll regarding how SL residents feel about Gachas.  All I do know is that for events like the Arcade and The Epiphany it was incredibly rare and hard to get into those two events the first week their new rounds opened.  And whenever I visit the marketplace there were always a few gacha prizes that came up whenever I was looking for something.  And then there were the yard sale sims and gacha prize  trading groups to help people get the prizes they wanted or get rid of prizes they didn't.   Sounds to me that even if people said they loathed them, they still played them.    But of course, I could be wrong. 

 

Umm.. I didn't say I was saying how SL residents feel or the general population feel about the issue. I said that the countries (governments) that the majority of residents from second life reside are looking to ban them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Q: Will popular games like 7seas be impacted by this policy change?

A: No, because the purchase of bait to go “fishing” is a purchase being made of a known item, and also the fish you catch while playing the game are non-transferable. To be clear, if they are not currently, they must be going forward.


This is incorrect. The bait is a token of a certain value. The transferability of the received price has no impact.
Unless you would like to rewrite the policy.
For instance. Gatchas are not allowed unless you purchase a token and the price you receive is transferable.

Please correct and provide further guidance.

Thank you
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1
  • Confused 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Yhishara Cerise said:

That's true up to a point.  

If I look at the gacha key on the machine it gives me all the items that will possibly be given to me if I put my Lindens in to play it.  So while yes, you don't know until you put those Lindens in what prize you will receive with that pull, you do already know the possibilities.  If you don't like most of the possibilities it would be better to just not play the machine or be okay with what items you will receive - because you are guaranteed something.    It's not like you are going to be playing a DRD gacha and a prize from Go! will pop out. 

Still a gacha as what you get in the end is up to chance which goes directly against what Patch posted in his blog post.

Edited by So Whimsy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Umm.. I didn't say I was saying how SL residents feel or the general population feel about the issue. I said that the countries (governments) that the majority of residents from second life reside are looking to ban them.

I always got the impression that most of the userbase for SL resided in North America.   *shrugs* Who knew?

 I don't remember being asked as a resident of North America how I feel about gambling either.  Just for the record - once in a long while I might buy a scratch and win.  Even rarer still will I buy an actual lottery ticket.  Once I went into a casino because I needed to talk to a friend who was in one.  I've never played any of the games and I even worked at a place that had video lottery terminals (I never spent money in those either). The biggest reason is that I have never won anything and am not compensated in any way for my money.  I find them a complete waste of my time.  If they decided tomorrow to ditch any and all gambling I would have zero problem with it.

I have never viewed gachas in SL the same way.  I always got something for the money I put into them.  It was always something for something.  So why would I be against it here? 

Not only that but gachas were a very popular element in world for a long time.  As soon as it started gaining  popularity that's when Linden Labs should have put the kibosh on anything to do with it.  And they NEVER should have allowed events to focus around them if they were considered gambling in parts of the world.  I mean, it would be one thing if those laws had just gotten onto the books but this debate has been going on for a while.  

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Yhishara Cerise said:

As soon as it started gaining  popularity that's when Linden Labs should have put the kibosh on anything to do with it.  And they NEVER should have allowed events to focus around them if they were considered gambling in parts of the world.  I mean, it would be one thing if those laws had just gotten onto the books but this debate has been going on for a while.  

Back then countries did not ban this type of gambling so LL had absolutely no reason to ban it. It's a recent thing that's gaining more and more traction.

 

Gacha's have been around for 8+ years. The ban? Much younger.

Edited by So Whimsy
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Logistical Suggestion for the Lindens.

If you find a gacha out after sept 1, could you just return it, like you do with covenant breaking items at Bellisseria?

If you do that, then there is no penalty for the occasional inadvertently left out machine. (Some of us creators have gachas put out for fundraising, etc at assorted charity locations and dont remember where all of them are.) 

Of course, if any creator were to put back out a returned item, that would be a punishable offense.

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, So Whimsy said:

Back then countries did not ban this type of gambling so LL had absolutely no reason to ban it. It's a recent thing that's gaining more and more traction.

 

Gacha's have been around for 8+ years. The ban? Much younger.

From what I have seen criticism really started in 2017.  That's when Linden Labs should have given people a heads up that gacha's life span may be limited.   So why is this happening 4 years later?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Yhishara Cerise said:

From what I have seen criticism really started in 2017.  That's when Linden Labs should have given people a heads up that gacha's life span may be limited.   So why is this happening 4 years later?  

Back in 2017 was when Belgium banned them, which is a small country and if it had stayed an isolated incident LL might have blocked users from that country from buying gacha's and leave it at that.

However since then more countries have joined the ban and more legislations. The road is still being driven on and it got to a point where LL was forced to act (no doubt by its lawyers team) before they'd get hit by fines. At this point in time they are simply forced to react when they weren't forced to do so before.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

Hey everyone,

Once again, thread is paused.  It's clearly going to need my team to spend some time this morning to both clean it up, hand out disciplinary action to those of you who can not be reasonably decent to others on here and for us to address some more issues. 

Additionally, whatever comes out on the other end of this can no longer be called "gacha".  Make no illusions or ways to circumvent getting around it, but "gacha" is gone for good; we should not call it that anymore going forward with any proposed idea to reincarnate it in some way.  We have been seeing a lot of good suggestions on new, interesting ways to sell content, many of which we have given to our general counsel for further legal opinion.  When we have that information back, the FAQ will be updated.

We have also been analyzing the 7seas Fishing Game further (yes we play it 🐠), and there is another mechanic at play which is the one-time purchase of the fishing rod (free or paid). The fishing rod to catch fish is all that is really required to play the game, there is no additional purchase required and with that you can catch all the fish (or other items) you desire.  In effect, the catches are free and have no value.  Purchasing bait to play the game gives experience for competition.  If purchasing bait increases the value of the fish (or items) caught, then the fish (or items) would then have to be no transfer.   I have seen some suggestions that it is a disguise to legalize gambling and a handful of other theories to twist the mechanics of the game.  This is clearly not the case and that is spreading misinformation, which needs to cease immediately.  

On edit:  Further in the problematic mechanics of the gacha systems, and in addition to what I said earlier, regarding the act of paying for something and in return the item/thing you receive back can not be based on chance, this includes the purchaser must know what they are purchasing in advance of the sale being made.  In other words, the purchaser must clearly see and understand what they are purchasing at the time of sale.

We will be back with more soon, for the time being this thread will remain on pause and we ask that you do not create additional threads on this topic as those will be locked so we can keep our focus here.

Thanks!

  • Like 8
  • Thanks 20
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Patch LindenSo how do you manage the copybot scammers that exist in MP?  Even if gacha sales are stopped, if resale is still allowed, they will infinitely duplicate existing gacha items and sell them at a lower price than now.  In fact, the creators were suffering from copybots.  The copybot problem should be solved and the creators should be compensated fairly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are about to reply to a thread that has been inactive for 958 days.

Please take a moment to consider if this thread is worth bumping.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...