New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Skylar Minotaur]

I am really glad to see this go but it should of been done years ago. Gacha has totally trashed the search function in marketplace because instead of finding what your looking for you get 1000's of worthless gacha resale items instead. 2nd it really is gambling and a lot of machines hardly ever spit out a rare item making you wonder if the mechanic in the script has been rigged in a way to hardly ever spit out a rare so the buyer keeps spending money. 3rd, there are tons of people in SL that  do nothing else but play these machines on ALT accounts and resell for no other reason then to profit. Its just bad all around. If you want to make money then make your own products and sell them. Good riddance.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Skylar Minotaur

[Kytteh Wytchwood]

6 hours ago, Cinos Field said:

So you'd argue that a slot machine that always returns at least one coin is not gambling because you always guaranteed a "win"?

I mentioned prizes, not getting coins. The gacha in SL is from the gachapon in Japan. Of course a slot machine is gambling because you don't know how much money you are going to win. Playing a nickel machine and getting a nickel back is not winning anything. Winning would be getting more than what you put in.

You can see the prizes before you pay a machine. You know you will be given one of the prizes. 

It's not gambling because it's not a slot machine filled with money.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Kytteh Wytchwood
When you go to a casino in Vegas, if you use their casino to cash your paycheck from your job, you can get them to spin a wheel for you. You will win a guaranteed prize, shown in each space in the wheel. This is also not gambling.

[Lydia Amethyst]

12 minutes ago, JuriTreat said:

Plenty, but the user base doesn't get to dictate the laws of nations. So while I am not surprised this conversation is 60 pages long, nothing anyone has to say here is going to reverse this.

The only reason they would change this now, is because there is outside pressure to do so.

I applaud you, I could not have said this better myself. 

[Sweecahcahche Ah]

1 minute ago, Malin Sabra said:

They dont have to remove the items, they can still sell the items just not through a gacha machine. Nothing says they cant sell everything in the gacha machine as stand alone items.

Yes I understand this, I was just thinking that a nice way forward for Loyal Customers, would be possibly to do as I mentioned 🐸

[Malin Sabra]

1 minute ago, Sweecahcahche Ah said:

Yes I understand this, I was just thinking that a nice way forward for Loyal Customers, would be possibly to do as I mentioned 🐸

Yeah sorry I mis-read your post lol

Edited August 3, 2021 by Malin Sabra
Needs coffee

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

I mentioned prizes, not getting coins. The gacha in SL is from the gachapon in Japan. Of course a slot machine is gambling because you don't know how much money you are going to win. Playing a nickel machine and getting a nickel back is not winning anything. Winning would be getting more than what you put in.

You can see the prizes before you pay a machine. You know you will be given one of the prizes. 

It's not gambling because it's not a slot machine filled with money.

Yes but Gachas are considered a GAME OF CHANCE which is technically considered gambling. You pay money and there is a chance you won't get item you want and will get another item. It is like a slot machine, as you are literally putting what would constitute coins into a machine for a chance to get one of the many items that are being offered a certain percentile chance. 

 

[Sweecahcahche Ah]

2 minutes ago, Malin Sabra said:

Yeah sorry I mis-read your post lol

Don't worry about it, it is so easily done especially by us non native English speakers 🐸

[Silent Mistwalker]

@Patch Linden

@Linden Lab

Just wanted to say thank you for letting people blow off steam while keeping it down to a dull roar. It really is the right thing to do. 👍

So, thanks. It does help even if it doesn't seem like it.

[Romy Writer]

9 minutes ago, Skylar Minotaur said:

I am really glad to see this go but it should of been done years ago. Gacha has totally trashed the search function in marketplace because instead of finding what your looking for you get 1000's of worthless gacha resale items instead. 2nd it realy is gambling and a lot of machines hardly ever spit out a rare item making you wonder if the mechanic in the script has been rigged in a way to hardly ever spit out a rare so the buyer keeps spending money. 3rd there are people in SL who do nothing but play these machines on ALT accounts and resell for no other reason then to profit. Its just bad all around. If you want to make money then make your own products and sell them. Good riddance.

No one is profiting from gacha resale. If they are they are, they are an exception by a lot. At best gacha resellers regain a portion of the money they spent in the first place. That is not profit, that is not even breaking even. 

[Vanity Fair]

What I am dying to find out is how those SL stores, which are either completely or largely gachas, will retool (e.g. Jian pets, Hideki home decor, Garbaggio dolls). Gachas make up a significant part of their business, and they have dozens and dozens of gachas in their stores for which they abruptly need to find alternative sales mechanisms. I am sure some of them will just decide to shut down completely, rather than bother to do all this work. This is going to have spin-off effects on the SL economy.
 

I have been chatting with one gallery owner who sold much of his artwork and sculpture via gacha machines. He tells me he doesn’t see how he will be able to meet his tier with regular sales, and he is seriously pondering packing up and leaving Second Life, which makes me sad. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Vanity Fair

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 minute ago, Vanity Fair said:

What I am dying to find out is how those SL stores, which are either completely or largely gachas, will retool (e.g. Jian pets, Hideki home decor, Garbaggio dolls). Gachas make up a significant part of their business, and they have dozens and dozens of gachas in their stores for which they abruptly need to find alternative sales mechanisms.I am sure some of them will just decide to shut down completely, rather than bother to do all this work. This is going to have spin-off effects on the SL economy.
 

I have been chatting with one gallery owner who sold much of his artwork and sculpture via gacha machines. He tells me he doesn’t see how he will be able to meet his tier with regular sales, and he is seriously pondering packing up and leaving Second Life, which makes me sad. 

Jian was around, selling all sorts of animals, long before Gachas came about.  And they still continually put out new items that are not Gacha.  I don't know anything about the other stores you mentioned, but I don't see this putting Jian out of business.

[Romy Writer]

1 minute ago, Vanity Fair said:

What I am dying to find out is how those SL stores, which are either completely or largely gachas, will retool (e.g. Jian pets, Hideki home decor, Garbaggio dolls). Gachas make up a significant part of their business, and they have dozens and dozens of gachas in their stores for which they abruptly need to find alternative sales mechanisms.I am sure some of them will just decide to shut down completely, rather than bother to do all this work. This is going to have spin-off effects on the SL economy.
 

I have been chatting with one gallery owner who sold much of his artwork and sculpture via gacha machines. He tells me he doesn’t see how he will be able to meet his tier with regular sales, and he is seriously pondering packing up and leaving Second Life, which makes me sad. 

I am also curious to see how creators will adapt. Will miss playing gacha's from time to time I am sure, but excited to see what change this will bring. Hopefully positive ones.

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, Marianne Little said:

Creators had to agree that they would only sell the gachas for the event, and then never again, or as ordinary sales.

I saw @Chic Aeonpost this tens and tens of pages ago. I can not understand that any creators actually did this, since the stores I visit has older gacha machines up from events years ago. 

But if it was such an agreement, is it not dead now since gacha is not allowed anymore? And what was the "punishment" for breaking the role of not selling gachas after an event? Be banned from the event in the future? It will be no more gacha events now, so is the agreement worth anything?

I would like to see the gacha items sold as ordinary goods, instead of letting them die.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that exactly -- although in at least one event case you agreed to NEVER sell the "special event bonus" item EVER again.    The point was to make the item EXTRA RARE so that folks would play for them.  In my case they were guaranteed the item after so many pulls.  

 

In the events that "I" was in you were allowed to sell the items AS NO-COPY GACHAS in your store after the event.  In some events you could NOT sell them as a fatpack later or in any other manor. That is the main reason that some of my gachas have copy fatpacks and some do not -- the rules we agreed to. 

 

As to if the agreement is worth anything still -- in MY mind it is. For one thing the gacha resellers (who bought a LOT of my stuff) bought them  and got the bonus item (sometimes more than one of the bonus) so that they could resell at a profit. IF I were to say take my water buoys (very cool) out and just sell them for say $100 lindens -- then that would degrade the price of the item that the reseller  played for -- in good faith.  If someone bought the buoy on the aftermarket, it would degrade its value also.  I agreed NOT to do that. 

 

So "I" have never broken that agreement. I know not what others have done or will do :D.  

And part of the reason for agreeing to those terms was the ability to be IN a "top gacha" event and make lots of money.   

PS. I am sure that the rules are / were different in different events. I can only speak to the events I was in. 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Chic Aeon
adding info

[Rei Waifu]

I love how everyone's coming up with new ideas .... that still use payment for a random item chance.....

You can put lipstick on a pig and call it a horse, but it's still a pig..... 

[WiccedCrow]

Can this really not be resolved with a new land setting that would not allow those from countries that have this law to enter? This would at least allow events to continue for those that live in countries that allow it. LL has our information and countries we live in on our accounts.

[Vanity Fair]

Goes for popcorn, settles into the thread

We should start a betting pool as to when this thread reaches a hundred pages…oh, wait, that’s gambling 😂

Edited August 3, 2021 by Vanity Fair

[Rathgrith027]

1 minute ago, Vanity Fair said:

What I am dying to find out is how those SL stores, which are either completely or largely gachas, will retool (e.g. Jian pets, Hideki home decor, Garbaggio dolls). Gachas make up a significant part of their business, and they have dozens and dozens of gachas in their stores for which they abruptly need to find alternative sales mechanisms.I am sure some of them will just decide to shut down completely, rather than bother to do all this work. This is going to have spin-off effects on the SL economy.
 

I have been chatting with one gallery owner who sold much of his artwork and sculpture via gacha machines. He tells me he doesn’t see how he will be able to meet his tier with regular sales, and he is seriously pondering packing up and leaving Second Life, which makes me sad. 

Honestly, I will admit that it's a shame that some will leave SL over this, but if I were them, I would have phased out of this area of work long ago. The writing has been on the wall for Gacha and Lootboxes for a while now - ask any gamer who is even remotely familiar with the business practices within both the triple A and Mobile fields - This has been a long time coming for many.

 

Hell, Forza Horizon 4 was rumored to have a Gacha Feature, but it had Real Life Transactions for 'Wheelspins' removed from the game prior to release because of all this, opting for offering Wheelspins and Super Wheelspins in return for levelling up and completing in game objectives. Battlefront 2 removed lootboxes after four months of release. Other companies have tread the same ground that Linden Lab has with this decision.

The only reason why Lootboxes haven't been banned in more places can easily boil down to the COVID-19 Pandemic, obviously, taking priority in leglislatures and governments as a whole worldwide for over a year and some change now. Give it 2 years, and I'm certain that other countries will follow in the footsteps of Belgium and the Netherlands.

If you don't like this, write to your legislators. This is not something Linden Lab can say No to - this is a pre-emptive act to ensure that we as a userbase still have a legally viable platform to call home. We've been at the forefront of scandal after scandal, and I and Many others know damn well what Linden Lab's lax and even, over-reaching responses ergo, can do to SL, as it's happened before. I for one applaud Linden Lab for actually doing something before it becomes a legal problem.

Whether or not you agree with me on whether Gacha in a legal capacity should be banned, is your prerogative, but as I have stated above comes from very clear observations of the legal and economic areas around Gacha and Lootboxes - Its' days are undoubtedly numbered. Whether you want to put your head in the sand and scream at the Lindens or accept it and roll with the punches, is your decision.

Take it from someone who as an High Functioning Autist with general anxiety disorder who for years, used to fear changes - I have come to accept it myself.

[Arielle Popstar]

23 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

We lost folks from SL when true gambling was banned, but others came to take their place.  If folks are only here to play Gacha or make money off of Gacha resell, they might leave, but in the end I don't think it will severely hurt SL.

Hard to say how many will actually not return but I will admit I am surprised at how many it is an attraction for. The way I see it though is that LL is again folding like a bit of a wet noodle on the supposition that the legal climate might start to lean towards banning these sorts of games. What is next? They start banning adult activities inworld because of what must most assuredly be legal pressure from various countries and states for the sorts of activities that happen here? Considering how many other game and social platforms out there are positively puritan in their policing of adult content, there must surely be a fair amount of pressure from that perspective too but so far LL seems to have resisted any attempts to regulate that for S/L.

Just makes me wonder where it will all wind up.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 minute ago, WiccedCrow said:

Can this really not be resolved with a new land setting that would not allow those from countries that have this law to enter? This would at least allow events to continue for those that live in countries that allow it. LL has our information and countries we live in on our accounts.

There are two aspects to the Gacha issue: 

First is that some countries/locales ban them entirely.  In theory that could be managed like you mentioned, though that does become cumbersome to LL if the list of said locales keeps growing.

Second is the places that simply define Gachas as gambling.  If LL allows anything that is defined as gambling, it gets them into a whole new batch of regulatory crap - from both the US and other countries. 

[Kytteh Wytchwood]

18 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Yes but Gachas are considered a GAME OF CHANCE which is technically considered gambling. You pay money and there is a chance you won't get item you want and will get another item. It is like a slot machine, as you are literally putting what would constitute coins into a machine for a chance to get one of the many items that are being offered a certain percentile chance. 

 

It's not gambling. You know that what you want, will not be given to you. You know you will get one of the prizes shown. This means you are comfortable with getting anything shown on the gacha poster, because you like what is shown. You may also love the creator's products, having bought many of their products that are not in gacha machines. 

There is always the option to buy from a regular vendor in their mainstore. It's not like the store only has gachas.

Also I had added more information as an edit to my post but then got a rl call and had to pause my typing. It's there now if you want to go back to it.

[Malin Sabra]

2 minutes ago, Rathgrith027 said:

Honestly, I will admit that it's a shame that some will leave SL over this, but if I were them, I would have phased out of this area of work long ago.

I bet no one leaves over this

[LittleMe Jewell]

Just now, Malin Sabra said:

I bet no one leaves over this

Like anything else that happens in SL, I have no doubt that a few will leave.............. but it definitely will not be any sort of "end of world" dire issue.

[Rathgrith027]

1 minute ago, Malin Sabra said:

I bet no one leaves over this

As LittleMe Said, there's always that small subset of people.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

2 minutes ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

It's not gambling. You know that what you want, will not be given to you. You know you will get one of the prizes shown. This means you are comfortable with getting anything shown on the gacha poster, because you like what is shown. You may also love the creator's products, having bought many of their products that are not in gacha machines. 

There is always the option to buy from a regular vendor in their mainstore. It's not like the store only has gachas.

Also I had added more information as an edit to my post but then got a rl call and had to pause my typing. It's there now if you want to go back to it.

Sometimes there is NOT an option to buy from a regular vendor. I've seen that a few times.

[Rathgrith027]

Just now, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Sometimes there is NOT an option to buy from a regular vendor. I've seen that a few times.

There rarely is. That and it doesn't change the fact that is still considered gambling.