New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Prokofy Neva]

39 minutes ago, Anitya Leclerc said:

That's not what I said. Don't put words in my mouth.

You keep referring to a law in Canada that no one linked to or discussed. What WAS linked to and discussed was a PDF referencing laws against illegal gambling devices in California. You keep saying there isn't any US law on this. That is not true. There is a law on the books in the state where LL operates.

That is all I asked for you to acknowledge. Please stop perpetuating the same inaccuracy. Thank you in advance.

---

As for your question: is there a case history of that law being used to prosecute anything like SL? ***** if I know. I am not a lawyer. I do not pretend to be one.

However, I will simply point out that the existence of a law, regardless of its enforcement, matters. This is why, for example, Lawrence v. Texas in 2003, rendering all sodomy laws in the US obsolete, was important. It wasn't that people were going to jail for their sex lives with any regularity. It was that, at any moment, in theory, they could.

Am I saying that gacha are on the same level of basic human rights? No. I am not. I am simply using a well-known case to demonstrate that it's still important to take theoretical prosecution into account.

LL doesn't have to wait to be prosecuted, or wait for a similar case to be prosecuted, before noting that they are technically in violation of CA law, are thus potentially in danger of prosecution if anyone felt like doing so, and putting a stop to the illegal behavior.

Again, the law in California has not been prosecuted against LL or any SL merchant. That's what you keep failing to admit. There is no US law on this. There is not. US law refers to FEDERAL laws. You are citing a law in California. There are laws in Canada, too. To speak only of California, you cannot cite, because it does not exist, a single CASE of PROSECUTION of the law. You keep pretending that a law on the books alone is enough. Law is not self-executing. The Smith Act is on the books, but it was long ago essentially overturned by judicial decisions declaring it unconstitutional. You don't know how this law is being prosecuted or how it may be overturned. You just don't know. So stop invoking law as if law is enough to make policy -- in a void, without any jurisprudence. LL has not said, and may never say, that drove this policy, which is their right to make. Did a California prosecutor call them? I highly doubt it. Did Elizabeth Warren's pal who is a new owner jump on this for his own political and ideological reasons? More than likely. But we don't know, they haven't told us.

You can't declare LL as "technically in violation of the law" not only because you are not a lawyer -- that alone would not be enough -- but because you can't, like any educated person can, cite any case where the law was APPLIED to SL or any situation like SL. APPLIED. That's what matters.

So stop with the moralizing, which is all that can be done on the basis of your level of knowledge. Find a single case of the prosecution of this law. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Go here to read up on Canada. There are other pages, that's what I'm referring to.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Cackle Amore]

1 minute ago, Taboo Takeda said:

i guess thats one reason, very expesive rares being selled on mp

Reselling already owned gacha's is fine since the item is already known and you'll be getting exactly what's offered

[unless it's a scammer]

[Prokofy Neva]

28 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

The issue with the Breedables, at least with the ones like KittyCats, when I buy a "starter" kitty, I only know that I am buying a female or male.  I don't know what the fur will be, or the eyes, ears, tail, and the other various traits.  So I don't even know if I'm getting a "white housecat" or a "spotted tomcat".

When purchasing kitty boxes that others sell, then we do know exactly what the traits are. 

I think breedables creators will have an easier time taking their existing stock of animals, and labeling and pricing them so people see what they are, yet still including that wild card of what they might breed, as that is not likely going to be outlawed.

[Faly Breen]

5 minutes ago, Hanjo Harvey said:

Spin the random wheel to win a random prize?  You doing double gacha now? 😂🤣
ooh that is evil - 'gacha inception'

i mean it could be another game where the chances to win a prices are at least "ok" but what price is kinda random i guess. I mean spin the wheel was only the first i had in mind since i somehow got wheel of fortune in mind XD

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, Anitya Leclerc said:

www.ca.gov is the URL for the government of the state of California. I'm not saying you're wrong about international law (first of all, I am not a lawyer; second, to the extent I know anything about law, you're right).

But please stop being disingenuous about the existence of an actual law in California because you haven't checked the URL or the PDF that was linked.

I checked it. I read it. It is in the state of California as anyone can see, because CA in the address. CA is the Internet address for Canada, too, but that page is clearly marketd. Other countries have similar laws which also have not been prosecuted against SL residents.

[Yuki Suki]

Just now, Faly Breen said:

i mean it could be another game where the chances to win a prices are at least "ok" but what price is kinda random i guess. I mean spin the wheel was only the first i had in mind since i somehow got wheel of fortune in mind XD

I supposed the main thing here is. If you do not know what you are getting, it is a no go no matter how many layers you add onto your gacha-ception. 😂

[Pirate Russell]

Why not require the Gachas to be in *Gaming Zones*?

[madcatclaudia Restless]

Question i have this MD Slot Machine (Pinup) 2.0.1  it doesnt list the prizes.. it is a slot machine you pay and it spins and you get a random prize for 35ld.?   Is this a gacha?

this is the item

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/MD-Slot-Machine-Pinup/3881870

 

??

Madcatclaudia restless

[Faly Breen]

6 minutes ago, Hanjo Harvey said:

If you do not know what you are getting, it is a no go no matter how many layers you add onto your gacha-ception. 😂

oh no

 

OHHH NOOO

 

TETRIS WILL BE NEXT NOOOOO X´D

Edited August 3, 2021 by Faly Breen

[Yuki Suki]

6 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I think breedables creators will have an easier time taking their existing stock of animals, and labeling and pricing them so people see what they are, yet still including that wild card of what they might breed, as that is not likely going to be outlawed.

Probably setting the pets without stats by default, and adding a 'Generate random stats" button for owners who want stats for their pet. What you reckon?

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, Tari Landar said:

I'm only on page 18, but I've read enough thus far to make this particular comment, I think. (I'll continue reading after this too, of course)

I know a lot of creators. I know a lot of people that sell things, but maybe aren't creators, they resell, especially gachas. Some of my creator friends make a decent chunk of change (in my opinion, and theirs) on gachas. I'm not a huge fan, never really have been, they're all well aware of that fact, lol. Absolutely none of them are freaking out about this as much as some of the people here are. A couple of them make way more on gacha item sales than they do their regular items. Want to know what they're all going to do now, because of this change? They're going to do what most reasonable creators (for those who create) would do and now sell those items that sell in gacha machines in either packs or as individual items. I know, nifty concept, they get to sell what they're already selling or making, the same way they always did before gacha became a thing in sl to begin with. Those who are resellers will sell up what they have, and at least one of them is working on learning how to create, the others will probably find other means to make whatever money they might now lose out on. But none of them are seeing any of this as a problem. In most cases, they all have known this would probably happen at some point. It's been a contentious issue for quite a long while now. Any creator worth their salt would at least have done a tiny bit of research into the problem surrounding gachas, lootboxes, games of chance, etc.. when it was made more widely known (which it did a long time ago). 

No creator is going to lose their livelihood over this, that's just ridiculous to even suggest, lol. Resellers may get hit, eventually, though not likely anytime soon. The folks who just sell some here and there aren't relying on gacha sales for their sl livelihood in the first place, lol. Creators aren't going to get hit as hard as some are suggesting, they just might have to change how they sell things, which isn't a bad thing at al. Gachas have created a weird stagnation in how things are sold to begin with, I'm surprised LL held on this long allowing them, really. Now creators can go back to selling things the way we always did before these things became the "in" thing here. If prims are an issue for inworld sellers, they can use vendors. They can sell individual items, they can sell packs, they can do whatever the heck they want as long as they're transparent on the what and how much of every sale (ie, what you're buying, what you're paying). It's not rocket surgery people! Sellers have never struggled with figuring out how to sell their wares the way people seem to suggest the removal of gachas would cause (well, the way the folks in this thread suggest it would cause, anyway). 

There is no reason why creators will have to, or even will, start changing the permissions they set on their items. Maybe some creators will start going back to the old way of selling multiple versions (copy/mod, or no copy/trans, for example) to appease everyone. MP won't suffer, it might in fact, over time, help clean it up a bit, although with as many gachas as are out there now, it's going to be  along while before we see that cleanup, lol. The sky's not falling, this won't be the end of sl, creators aren't going to get driven off the grid. Creators can still make and sell their wares, and we'll all be okay. 

 

I think your experience is limited on this, as usual. So is mine, but it's different, and to find out the truth, you have to have an open discussion. That won't occur here, as already there is a climate of oppression. In one merchant's group I happen to be in, I hear the holier-than-thou types pronouncing gatcha makers as evil and predatory. Of course they aren't. They are creative people making and selling in ways that the economy has dictated, in fact. The relatively free market. There is a lot of grievance out there from people who didn't win rares and didn't figure out to buy them on the MP for less than what they dropped in the machine.

But several people who make gatchas and yes, do rely on them are not taking this the way you imagine. One is giving up a region. Another was already one foot out of SL and is now pushed. Still another hopes that regular sales will increase to cover the loss of gatchas but is not optimistic. There are real people with real losses now, and you are not one of them. Neither am I, as I don't make gatchas for a living. Most of the merchants that rent from me, a declining number as people have moved to the MP or out of the business entirely do not make gatchas, but regular items on no-transfer.

It is my fervent hope that we will see a pivot to packs or sets and items on transfer. That could help relieve the agony.

In my study of gatchas in the last five years and in making the Gatcha Addiction Treatment Center, I concluded that the only people who reliably make money from gatchas are yard sales rentals agent. They have a fixed income from rentals which stay full as pent-up supply tries to meet demand trying to get less than pull price.

Creators who are expected to get windfalls from gatchas don't always do so. They have to pay the event booth fee which can be very high. They have to spend hours -- days -- creating sets that sell for less than they would had they sold them inworld as a fatpack. They have to stuff them in the machines and listen to customers complain about how they didn't get the rare. They may burn more staff time creating gatcha exchange areas. it's not a sure thing at all.

The top selling creator in SL, from my observation, namely Apple Fall, retired his gatchas some two years ago and decided not to make any more. You could ask him about his reasons. I think his experience of constant customer complaints was a factor, as was the problem of gatchas being in demand, and being a showcase of your work even if in prim or sculpty, when you have moved on to mesh and better and better mesh.

[Arwyn Quandry]

31 minutes ago, Adeon Writer said:

Now that gachas are banned, the next thing that's going to come along are "timed purchases" where a vendor just shows a random item that won't change unless someone buys it, and afterwhich it will roll to be another random item. The percentages will be shown and rarities will exist.

I was just thinking of something very similar to this as the solution for people who still want random items but without it being a gatcha. It seems potentially legal, as the user is still getting exactly what they pay for, there's just a limited window in which they can buy it. The scripting might be tricky with a ton of users trying to make the purchase though. Could be better to set it up so it will offer that item for sale for a set period of time, like 30 seconds, during which anyone can buy it before it changes to another. Alternatively, make it like a lucky board where you can only buy the item displayed if your name starts with a certain letter.

Ultimately, we're going to have to see what the market produces. There's going to be a rush of possible solutions to the no more gatcha issue after this. Scripters are probably going to be competing to make the next big system. It comes down to what consumers prefer and what stays in LL's boundaries. I'd guess we're in for an interesting few months while everything shakes out.

[ArikTheRed]

1 hour ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

What California dictates is not the only thing that LL has to worry about.  If LL wants SL to be available in other countries, then they also have to abide by the laws of those countries.  

Gachas are illegal in some countries and being looked at very closely in a few others.

Meaning, there are countries with stiff laws and regulations against gumball machines?  

 

[Claireschen Hesten]

2 minutes ago, Pirate Russell said:

Why not require the Gachas to be in *Gaming Zones*?

Gachas are a 'game' of chance to go in a skill game region there would have to be an element of skill to obtain an item from the gacha. Maybe if it was allowed it could be possible to have a skill game machine that gives out a gacha prize rather than cash I don't know

[CronoCloud Creeggan]

Imagine the Grumpy Cat "Good"  meme image here.  Hallelujah, there IS a Goddess!

I've been wanting them gone for seven years!  Seven!  As I've said many times:  "Gacha is Satan, not Satin and we want Satin, not Satan. Hail Satin!"

Or as I said on my un-updated in ages blog:

Think about it, while you can trade your gacha items, how many turns of the wheel do you have to do to get what you want? And how much would that thing have cost you if you had just bought it in a store? When I want something, I want what I want when I want it, which is usually...NOW. I don't want to have to put 1500L$ into a machine to get something I'd only pay 350 for. I don't want to have to wait for a trade so that I "might" get what I really want. I want it now. Not later, now, and at a fair price....now. I don't want to have to go to a lag heavy region and wait for a machine, I just want to go in, and get what I want...perhaps even WHILE shopping on marketplace at the same time. Yes, I'm one of those people who have actually paid full price for items that were in Lucky Chairs...because I didn't want to have to wait.

[Prokofy Neva]

51 minutes ago, Anitya Leclerc said:

That's not what I said. Don't put words in my mouth.

You keep referring to a law in Canada that no one linked to or discussed. What WAS linked to and discussed was a PDF referencing laws against illegal gambling devices in California. You keep saying there isn't any US law on this. That is not true. There is a law on the books in the state where LL operates.

That is all I asked for you to acknowledge. Please stop perpetuating the same inaccuracy. Thank you in advance.

---

As for your question: is there a case history of that law being used to prosecute anything like SL? ***** if I know. I am not a lawyer. I do not pretend to be one.

However, I will simply point out that the existence of a law, regardless of its enforcement, matters. This is why, for example, Lawrence v. Texas in 2003, rendering all sodomy laws in the US obsolete, was important. It wasn't that people were going to jail for their sex lives with any regularity. It was that, at any moment, in theory, they could.

Am I saying that gacha are on the same level of basic human rights? No. I am not. I am simply using a well-known case to demonstrate that it's still important to take theoretical prosecution into account.

LL doesn't have to wait to be prosecuted, or wait for a similar case to be prosecuted, before noting that they are technically in violation of CA law, are thus potentially in danger of prosecution if anyone felt like doing so, and putting a stop to the illegal behavior.

Sodomy laws have a long and sad history in the US in various states in particular and are still on the books and there is every reason to fear them even if the case law indicates likely they will not succeed as they summarize a climate, a culture against gays.

That's not the case of gatchas and loot boxes which are a relatively new phenomenon, which have no religious or conservative political group openly fighting them, and which there just aren't cases, period, let alone laws.

You're missing the point about law. It has to be prosecuted. I got a microwave oven that is banned in California as a gift. If I move to California you can be sure I'll take it with me. Big difference between me and my microwave and LGBT getting physically attacked and injured.

[Adeon Writer]

Just now, Claireschen Hesten said:

Gachas are a 'game' of chance to go in a skill game region there would have to be an element of skill to obtain an item from the gacha. Maybe if it was allowed it could be possible to have a skill game machine that gives out a gacha prize rather than cash I don't know

Actual claw machines. C'mon. Fill The Arcade with actual boardwalk carnival games, and put it in a skill gaming region. It already has the theme and ambience down!
Was always disappointed it wasn't more authentic to the what it was trying to look like.

[Coffee Pancake]

17 minutes ago, Amae Kiyori said:

What about events like Ephiphany that gives shoppers the option to turn in unwanted or extra gachas for points? ]

 

What you do with a gacha after you have it is entirely up to you and not covered by the new rules. Trade it sell it burn it, whatever you like.

How you aquire the object is what matters to the new rules.

If you pay a machine and it gives you a random thing, it's a gacha, it's banned.

That means Ephiphany too.

[Innula Zenovka]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Can you point to actual jurisprudence, i.e. case histories, citations of decisions in a court of law which is what makes up law in the US in the common law system.

I see from the LL Official FAQ about VAT that they're registered in the EU and Australia  as a non-resident business in those jurisdictions, and I rather suspect that the same will be true in this case.

While I doubt LL would find themselves in court in the US they'd certainly be subject to proceedings in the EU and Australia, at least, whose courts will certainly have jurisdiction over funds sent locally to LL via payment processors like Mastercard and Visa before the money is actually transmitted overseas.

Even if they were minded to, I'm pretty sure LL can't treat the law in those jurisdictions, at least, with impunity.

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Innula Zenovka

[AriaMoonlit]

They're just going to sell "fatpacks" of gacha now for like 5,000L like other people have been doing already after gacha events passed before . The concept of Gacha came from Japan. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by AriaMoonlit

[Gryphon Ronas]

4 hours ago, Sora Cyclone said:

LL already gets the money when you buy the lindens to purchase gacha stuff.  LL gets their cut no matter where you're purchasing it from.  You literally buy the money you're spending on these things from them.

It doesn't work that way.

When you buy L$, LL is just the broker. You are buying from an individual that is selling.

ALso, any fee that you pay to LL evaporates. It has no value to LL as they are the source of them.

They are simply removed from the economy to help balance out the stipend payments that go out every week.  Without a good money sink, the market will be flooded, they money will lose value because there is too much around. It sells for less when creators cash out, so they in turn raise the prices on items to compensate for lost real world revenue - and the inflation train is off and running till the bubble pops.

[Faly Breen]

1 minute ago, AriaMoonlit said:

They're just going to sell "fatpacks" of gacha now for like 5,000L like other people have been doing already after gacha events passed before . You win some , you lose some I guess.

"lose some"? people which might wanted to play 100L$ for fun for a random spin for a random avatar have now to pay for something they dont want. nice.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Faly Breen said:

"lose some"? people which might wanted to play 100L$ for fun for a random spin for a random avatar have now to pay for something they dont want. nice.

Random spin GAMBLING machines have been banned in SL forever - they are now skill games. Pay to play skill games can not be pure random chance.

[Mollymews]

4 hours ago, Deathly Fright said:

I haven't read the whole thread but my only question is what happens to gatchas that are inworld and the makers have gone and the store is a zombie?

from how things have gone in the past when content has been nerfed, Linden Governance team will start de-listing zombie marketplace items and returning to owner inventory inworld zombie vending devices. Typically with a notification email to the owner explaining the new policy

Patch Linden has said on here that any repercussions for owners will only come if after having been sent notification, the items are relisted and/or re-rezzed inworld

the main way linden governance works is that people Abuse Report items and Linden remove them

[AriaMoonlit]

1 minute ago, Faly Breen said:

"lose some"? people which might wanted to play 100L$ for fun for a random spin for a random avatar have now to pay for something they dont want. nice.

Yep. I'm happy there's no more gacha but fatpack prices might cost as much as buying a bento head since that's normally how much people would over spend to play gacha is the items were too elusive.