New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Anitya Leclerc]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Russia does things like that, not EU states.

Ummmmmmm have you seen the stuff that Hungary has been up to? Central European University was forced out of Budapest due to crackdowns on speech. Poland: also passing some really problematic laws. Still members of the EU 🤔

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, Adeon Writer said:

Legit answer: They are banned in the US.

Kinder Joy are sold in the US.  Chocolate and toys separated.

[wesleytron]

6 minutes ago, Adeon Writer said:

Legit answer: They are banned in the US.

 

4 minutes ago, Faly Breen said:

wait what? for real? they are?

They are, but not because the purchase of Kinder eggs is considered gambling.

It's because confectionery cannot contain “non-nutritive objects” under US regulations.

Edited August 2, 2021 by wesleytron

[KT Kingsley]

29 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Technically, the current gaming regions are not 'gambling' but are instead SKILL Gaming - because gambling is not allowed.  I can't see any way of turning a Gacha into a SKILL game.

Maybe something like a pachinko machine?

[Adeon Writer]

2 minutes ago, Faly Breen said:

wait what? for real? they are?

Yeah, they're pretty infamous for being banned in the US. You can't get them here, they're also illegal to import them from other countries.

However, there has been talk back in 2017 that they were going to sell a version that doesn't have a toy inside here, I'm not sure if that ever actually happened.

[Faly Breen]

13 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

This sounds like the Powder boxes - I think that is what they are called.  They contained skins & makeup, I think.  One of those that is still going now puts out pictures of everything in the box so that you can decide if you want it.  If any of them do not put out pictures, they will be banned because of the 'random' stuff.

I saw such events mostly in clubs for escorts like:

they were x boxes which had a colord item inside. costumers buy them for X price to get the colord item but they DONT KNOW which the color will be they end up with (aka they will get an random color). each color in the boxes will be in there only ONES - so to go with a simple sample: they are 3 boxes. one box will contain a red item, another a blue and the last a yellow item BUT you dont know which color will be inside so you end up buying one and end up with one random.

after those boxes are sold, there will be a second pair of the same amount of boxes which will have the same colors as well (to go with the sample: another pair of 3 boxes with the same colors, random). those boxes will be taken by the escorts and they will end up with their own random color.

at the end the costumer will have "his time" with the escort which pairs up with the same color if that explains the event well. so the costumers will pay for a random color and so the escorts will end with a random one as well.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Faly Breen
typo!

[VergilISparda]

2 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

The problem here is NOT that residents are overreacting and freaking out to the loss of Gatchas.

The problem is the Linden Lab is freaking out over "a changing regulatory climate".

Where in the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 does it say that you  can't sell one of several advertised items (based on chance) for usually less than 1 dollar US? Gatcha IS NOT BETTING. Are there actual court cases that hold that this sort of thing is in violation of UIGEA? Please share.

And if you outlaw Gatcha, how long before LL discontinues Linden Homes, which are homes allocated BY CHANCE based on the payment of ALOT of dollars. And what will follow after that?

 

Yeah bu I don't see someone going around buying several linden plots and get addicted to that. Even for resell, that'd be a loss. You get a place that is available.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 minute ago, Faly Breen said:

I saw such events mostly in clubs for escords like:

they were x boxes which had a colord item inside. costumers buy them for X price to get the colord item but they DONT KNOW which the color will be they end up with (aka they will get an random color). each color in the boxes will be in there only ONES - so to go with a simple sample: they are 3 boxes. one box will contain a red item, another a blue and the last a yellow item BUT you dont know which color will be inside so you end up buying one and end up with one random.

after those boxes are sold, there will be a second pair of the same amount of boxes which will have the same colors as well (to go with the sample: another pair of 3 boxes with the same colors, random). those boxes will be taken by the escorts and they will end up with their own random number.

at the end the costumer will have "his time" with the escort which pairs up with the same color if that explains the event well.

Interesting - never heard of those.  LL may have to make a specific statement regarding them.

[ArikTheRed]

I suppose my question is, will the State of California be penalizing/regulating gumball machines and the like with toys in them?  That is essentially what a gacha is.

If California is NOT changing how those "RL" machines are managed/regulated... then I don't understand where gachas would be any different.

[Yuki Suki]

11 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

The problem here is NOT that residents are overreacting and freaking out to the loss of Gatchas.

The problem is the Linden Lab is freaking out over "a changing regulatory climate".

Where in the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 does it say that you  can't sell one of several advertised items (based on chance) for usually less than 1 dollar US? Gatcha IS NOT BETTING. Are there actual court cases that hold that this sort of thing is in violation of UIGEA? Please share.

And if you outlaw Gatcha, how long before LL discontinues Linden Homes, which are homes allocated BY CHANCE based on the payment of ALOT of dollars. And what will follow after that?

 

1) The residents ARE overreacting.
2) Does LL have to wait until they are slapped with fines to start enforcing this?
3) Linden Homes are allocated on the basis of availability of the units when you apply for it. The units are not allocated randomly or by chance. Also you have the option to shop around before deciding to move in.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Hanjo Harvey

[Faly Breen]

5 minutes ago, Tori Nova said:

Yes, Choking Hazard

ok so they get banned for this stupid reason but not like for gambling? X´D jesus, US rules sometimes...

[LittleMe Jewell]

Just now, ArikTheRed said:

I suppose my question is, will the State of California be penalizing/regulating gumball machines and the like with toys in them?  That is essentially what a gacha is.

If California is NOT changing how those "RL" machines are managed/regulated... then I don't understand where gachas would be any different.

What California dictates is not the only thing that LL has to worry about.  If LL wants SL to be available in other countries, then they also have to abide by the laws of those countries.  

Gachas are illegal in some countries and being looked at very closely in a few others.

[Prokofy Neva]

4 minutes ago, Anitya Leclerc said:

Ummmmmmm have you seen the stuff that Hungary has been up to? Central European University was forced out of Budapest due to crackdowns on speech. Poland: also passing some really problematic laws. Still members of the EU 🤔

I'll wait while you go find the citations of ANY country, Canada, Japan, Belgian, or state like California, that presumably has laws or statutes that have been used to prosecute merchants in SL. 

I'll wait a year, while I re-sell my gatchas on the MP.

 

[Cinos Field]

I wouldn't personally try bypassing the new rules with some of the systems proposed so far. Especially not the "machine shows item beforehand but in order to change it you need to pay for a new random roll" which would still clearly fall under this (because you're in effect paying to randomize the next product, which is exactly "a chance-based outcome as a result of a payment." as the blog post says.)

The idea with a conveyor belt where you get all the items in a specific order should work though!

 

[Prokofy Neva]

35 minutes ago, Anitya Leclerc said:

www.ca.gov is the URL for the government of the state of California. I'm not saying you're wrong about international law (first of all, I am not a lawyer; second, to the extent I know anything about law, you're right).

But please stop being disingenuous about the existence of an actual law in California because you haven't checked the URL or the PDF that was linked.

Can you point to actual jurisprudence, i.e. case histories, citations of decisions in a court of law which is what makes up law in the US in the common law system.

I'll wait, I figure I have a year or more to keep selling gatchas on the MP before I run out.

[CelestineDemetria]

Does this Policy also apply to Breedables?

Meaning, when you buy mystery packs or LE packs of a certain coat or randomized coat and randomized gender, you the purchaser technically do not know exactly what you are getting, in regards to the randomized gender, size, or coats of the animal.

So the Orginal Breedable Creators LE's randomized sets have a similar selling mechanisms and the need to buy as Gacha machines. To get the intended things or items you are looking for you as a purchaser need to keep pumping money into the selling box till you get the item you were actually after.

I am only referring to the Item you receive at Time of Sales From the Original Breedable Creator. NOT any secondary breeding and selling of items because the purchaser knows exactly what they are receiving.

EX: You buy a box of LE's from the Original Breedable Creator it's a Randomized box. There are 2 Females Breedables come in the LE box from Original Breedable Creator when you need a Male & Female to breed. So you as a purchaser need to keep "Playing the Odds" and purchasing more from the selling box until you get the desired object, the M & F that you are after.

It's all randomized, so even on that second purchase you may walk away with another 2 Females so then you need to purchase yet another set. You as a purchaser keep chasing what you need from the Original Breedable Creator because the items sold out of the store starter packs or LE Packs are randomized. So, it's a chance-based outcome as a result of a payment. 

A bit confused on that. If you could clear that up that would be great. @Patch Linden

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by CelestineDemetria

[Adeon Writer]

Just now, ArikTheRed said:

I suppose my question is, will the State of California be penalizing/regulating gumball machines and the like with toys in them?  That is essentially what a gacha is.

If California is NOT changing how those "RL" machines are managed/regulated... then I don't understand where gachas would be any different.

I haven't seen them for quite some time. They seemed to vanish some time in the 00's. Are they still in stores around you?

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, ArikTheRed said:

I suppose my question is, will the State of California be penalizing/regulating gumball machines and the like with toys in them?  That is essentially what a gacha is.

 

Perhaps if there were distinct differences in the gumball aside from color, they might.  Or if they included that rare Everlasting Gobstopper they you had to spend $10 to finally get.  Until then, probably not.

 

[VergilISparda]

2 hours ago, CelestineDemetria said:

Does this Policy also apply to Breedables? Meaning, when you buy mystery packs of a certain coat or randomized coat  Randomized gender, you technically do not know exactly what you are getting in regards to the randomized sex of the animal or coats. 

A bit confused on that. If you could clear that up that would be great. 

If you do not know what you're going to receive after payment, then it falls into that

[Yuki Suki]

2 minutes ago, Faly Breen said:

ok so they get banned for this stupid reason but not like for gambling? X´D jesus, US rules sometimes...

There are actual cases of kids choking on them. It is there to minimize the damage. Its not stupid reason >.<

[Prokofy Neva]

3 minutes ago, Hanjo Harvey said:

1) The residents ARE overreacting.
2) Does LL have to wait until they are slapped with fines to start enforcing this?
3) Linden Homes are allocated on the basis of availability of the units when you apply for it. The units are not allocated randomly or by chance. Also you have the option to shop around before deciding to moving in.

diamond is absolutely right that Linden Homes are awarded by chance, yes indeed, after paying $11.99 which is a lot in "game" terms.

They aren't awarded "by availability" but BY CHANCE, because 10 might be available, but only 1 is handed to you. There's a a brisk after-market in "the best" LH homes despite the technical inability to sell them on the land menu. People have various strategies they use to hand them to others or make them available to others.

What do you want to bet that LL will a) stop doing the homes this way b) stop doing new homes, period.

LL doesn't have to wait until they are slapped with fines, but they can't cite a law, even in their own state of California, which has actually been *prosecuted*.

[Faly Breen]

i think the more i talk and see and look into the topic - and actually think about how losely this rule is - its getting out of hand. it should really be explained what "counts" as gacha in LLs standart now since i already read some things where it could count as gacha but "isnt one":

- breedables (some at least)

- collecting-/trading cards

- black/blind box sales

- fishing games

So yea...i think, as i said already, LL should make the rule WAY more specific. As i said already there:

 

[Prokofy Neva]

2 minutes ago, CelestineDemetria said:

Does this Policy also apply to Breedables? Meaning, when you buy mystery packs of a certain coat or randomized coat  Randomized gender, you technically do not know exactly what you are getting in regards to the randomized sex of the animal or coats. 

A bit confused on that. If you could clear that up that would be great. 

When I buy an ordinary white housecat, with the hope that if I breed it with an ordinary spotted tomcat, I will get a MEGA someday, that's not like a gatcha. I buy something I see. What happens next isn't in the purview of the policy or putative law. It's not a machine with random deliveries of things you can't know you will get or not get. My bet is that they will not come for breedables, as they don't have to, there isn't a law in the US, the application of the California law is uncertain, and they will not kill their golden goose sooner than they have to.

[Josephina Bonetto]

28 pages. That escalated fast.

Kinder eggs are amazing (in the UK we are allowed to choke on kinder toys). 

Randomly allocating a home to a resident as part of their premium membership is not the same as gacha. It is a perk. That 11.99 funds a few things, not just Linden Homes. They can argue that the 11.99 funds everything else and the Linden Home is "free". A benefit. 

[Anitya Leclerc]

Just now, Prokofy Neva said:

Can you point to actual jurisprudence, i.e. case histories, citations of decisions in a court of law which is what makes up law in the US in the common law system.

I'll wait, I figure I have a year or more to keep selling gatchas on the MP before I run out.

2 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I'll wait while you go find the citations of ANY country, Canada, Japan, Belgian, or state like California, that presumably has laws or statutes that have been used to prosecute merchants in SL. 

I'll wait a year, while I re-sell my gatchas on the MP.

 

That's not what I said. Don't put words in my mouth.

You keep referring to a law in Canada that no one linked to or discussed. What WAS linked to and discussed was a PDF referencing laws against illegal gambling devices in California. You keep saying there isn't any US law on this. That is not true. There is a law on the books in the state where LL operates.

That is all I asked for you to acknowledge. Please stop perpetuating the same inaccuracy. Thank you in advance.

---

As for your question: is there a case history of that law being used to prosecute anything like SL? ***** if I know. I am not a lawyer. I do not pretend to be one.

However, I will simply point out that the existence of a law, regardless of its enforcement, matters. This is why, for example, Lawrence v. Texas in 2003, rendering all sodomy laws in the US obsolete, was important. It wasn't that people were going to jail for their sex lives with any regularity. It was that, at any moment, in theory, they could.

Am I saying that gacha are on the same level of basic human rights? No. I am not. I am simply using a well-known case to demonstrate that it's still important to take theoretical prosecution into account.

LL doesn't have to wait to be prosecuted, or wait for a similar case to be prosecuted, before noting that they are technically in violation of CA law, are thus potentially in danger of prosecution if anyone felt like doing so, and putting a stop to the illegal behavior.