New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Rosa Hexem]

2 minutes ago, Shuichi Shinji said:

Yes, that could work. The vendor wouldn't even need to talk to the HUD regarding payments - the HUD could just be for displaying the next item, everything else can stay in the vendor (payment and delivery)... even a simple IM from the vendor would be enough in theory. It would also allow multiple users to use the vendor - the next item for each user that is displayed on their HUD would just stay as it is and not change, no matter how many others are also playing, so they would always get what they see.

If this concept is an interesting enough replacement for Gacha, I don't know...

H'yup!

WRT if this will be an "interesting ennough replacement for gacha" that really depends on the whims of the userbase and that's something I won't claim to predict. People in this thread, the loudest and most passionate voices amongst us, will likely say things to the effect of "This will never replace gacha, this new thing sucks! I will never play it!" or "This is basically gacha, this thing sucks! I will never play it!" aren't an accurate representation of SL's shopping demographic as a whole. If we want to see if it's interesting enough we'll just have to wait and see, if not be the ones to put up vendors based on these new ideas in stores ourselves and see what kind of feedback we get from their use.

[Delilah Mercury]

26 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

Ah, brilliant. So gachas were banned but actually gachas are allowed if we call them conveyors instead.

What was the point of this whole thing again? A very niche wording of a law somewhere?

Was it the word that got banned, specifically, then? The blog post definitely needs updating on what mechanic exactly is banned, because it clearly wasn't the randomness as a result of payment.

literally does feel like they're just trying to ban gacha-in-name and anything that could be explicitly interpreted as gambling, not actual gambling overall.

[Mollymews]

27 minutes ago, Shuichi Shinji said:

And what's worse (maybe you meant that) is that the customer needs to give those permissions (since the HUD object is his own, so it doesn't make sense to pay the object like a normal vendor). And since there already are Gacha vendors that are not entirely trustworthy (a minority maybe, but nevertheless), would customers give them basically unlimited access to their L$ balance (at least the warning that pops up is very clear)?

a while back now there was a black box HUD that a event group was promoting along with a number of creators

the HUD would show products from the creators. Touch the image of a product. The wearer would then be asked for debit permission. On granting the permission, the script would deduct the money from the wearer's L$ account, a message then sent to the system server which would deliver the product to the wearer's inventory

quite a few people were OK with doing this (granting debit permission) as the event organiser had a good reputation as did the creators involved

the hook for the customers was that the products were exclusive to the black box HUD, the creators were obliged to not sell them anywhere else

it ended up folding as the demand on the creators to continually create exclusive products for a limited sale time window became to much for them

but there are people who will give debit permission when they are confident that they can trust the script

[Dorientje Woller]

2 minutes ago, Delilah Mercury said:

literally does feel like they're just trying to ban gacha-in-name and anything that could be explicitly interpreted as gambling, not actual gambling overall.

I don't see any reason why a conveyor system should be gambling. In the case of the conveyor you still know what you get after payment. If you don't like what's been offered, you still have your own control in buying it or not. With gachas, you don't know what you are getting.

[Chris Corvinus]

9 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

I don't see any reason why a conveyor system should be gambling. In the case of the conveyor you still know what you get after payment. If you don't like what's been offered, you still have your own control in buying it or not. With gachas, you don't know what you are getting.

The conveyor system isn’t gambling, but it’s an insult to buyers.

[OthirMan]

I'm very confused.

In "Policy Change Regarding Gacha" it is made clear that the real-world "regulatory climate" impacts and at-least-sometimes controls in-game activities.

How, if at all, does this apply to income taxation?  Does making a real-world monetary profit require sales tax or VAT?

And do price-fixing or monopolization regulations apply?

Let me give you a current in-game example.  As of about three weeks ago, it looks like the majority of Adult-rated land that is available for sale is not actually listed for sale -- if you can identify land that you desire as being owned by a realtor, then they will work with you and give you a quote, but by looking at the World Map you can't see what land is available (you have to go to the parcel and look).  Simultaneous with this holding-back-of-information, Adult-land prices went up roughly 50%.  What would the regulators say about that?

( NOTE:  I did have one realtor, Clyde Coy, once sell us land for significantly LESS than we offered.  Kudos to Clyde!!! )

[Cinos Field]

21 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

I don't see any reason why a conveyor system should be gambling. In the case of the conveyor you still know what you get after payment. If you don't like what's been offered, you still have your own control in buying it or not. With gachas, you don't know what you are getting.

The idea is clearly to keep paying the machine until you, by random chance, get the rare, as it was before.

Imagine a slot machine where you know if your next few plays will win or not, but in order to see if the fourth or fifth play will finally be the jackpot, you'll just have to keep playing. That would instantly be torn apart by hordes of hungry lawyers.

Why this one is okay, only the Lindens really know.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Cinos Field

[Shuichi Shinji]

14 minutes ago, Viche Hexem said:

H'yup!

WRT if this will be an "interesting ennough replacement for gacha" that really depends on the whims of the userbase and that's something I won't claim to predict. People in this thread, the loudest and most passionate voices amongst us, will likely say things to the effect of "This will never replace gacha, this new thing sucks! I will never play it!" or "This is basically gacha, this thing sucks! I will never play it!" aren't an accurate representation of SL's shopping demographic as a whole. If we want to see if it's interesting enough we'll just have to wait and see, if not be the ones to put up vendors based on these new ideas in stores ourselves and see what kind of feedback we get from their use.

Yeah, I won't try to predict that either. I am just trying to find out if it's worth to update (and rename) my own (open source) Gatcha script in a fair, usable and compliant way. Right now I am leaning to retiring it. I don't think I will go for the HUD idea - it does solve a few problems with the conveyor-style vendors, but they also make a formerly simple system much more complicated, HUD or no HUD, and for me personally, they don't sound like fun. But I'll see... I certainly won't put up these vendors myself, tho, because who would play gacha for scripts? ^^

[Rosa Hexem]

Another thing about conveyors, while we do have Nadi's post with their handy-dandy diagram of how a conveyor works and their own conveyor mechanism I do think that it might be hard to convey to people how conveyors work just as they come across them in the wild so to speak. Is this a concern for people making conveyors or are we just trusting in the notion that people will generally intuit how they work after seeing them?

ANOTHER another thing about conveyors and in relevancy to what was posted earlier about an LL approved conveyor script: at the very least it might be handy to have an LL approved conveyor script example at least. This doesn't have to be the only one people are allowed to use but one that anybody can look at and see what kind of mechanics in detail LL has approved of for their own designs. It'd also help having a free example for people who want to make and sell their own conveyor machines but don't have scripting knowhow: a free, fair example script could easily be thrown in a new conveyor machine and better the first free script everyone is slapping in their conveyor vendors is a fair one, right?

[Chris Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, Viche Hexem said:

Another thing about conveyors, while we do have Nadi's post with their handy-dandy diagram of how a conveyor works and their own conveyor mechanism I do think that it might be hard to convey to people how conveyors work just as they come across them in the wild so to speak. Is this a concern for people making conveyors or are we just trusting in the notion that people will generally intuit how they work after seeing them?

ANOTHER another thing about conveyors and in relevancy to what was posted earlier about an LL approved conveyor script: at the very least it might be handy to have an LL approved conveyor script example at least. This doesn't have to be the only one people are allowed to use but one that anybody can look at and see what kind of mechanics in detail LL has approved of for their own designs. It'd also help having a free example for people who want to make and sell their own conveyor machines but don't have scripting knowhow: a free, fair example script could easily be thrown in a new conveyor machine and better the first free script everyone is slapping in their conveyor vendors is a fair one, right?

That whole conveyor idea needs to have gasoline thrown on it and lit up. Just because its an idea that got approved doesnt mean its a good one to go with.

[Innula Zenovka]

 

4 hours ago, OthirMan said:

I'm very confused.

In "Policy Change Regarding Gacha" it is made clear that the real-world "regulatory climate" impacts and at-least-sometimes controls in-game activities.

How, if at all, does this apply to income taxation?  Does making a real-world monetary profit require sales tax or VAT?

And do price-fixing or monopolization regulations apply?

Let me give you a current in-game example.  As of about three weeks ago, it looks like the majority of Adult-rated land that is available for sale is not actually listed for sale -- if you can identify land that you desire as being owned by a realtor, then they will work with you and give you a quote, but by looking at the World Map you can't see what land is available (you have to go to the parcel and look).  Simultaneous with this holding-back-of-information, Adult-land prices went up roughly 50%.  What would the regulators say about that?

( NOTE:  I did have one realtor, Clyde Coy, once sell us land for significantly LESS than we offered.  Kudos to Clyde!!! )

I think those would be matters for the tax and regulatory authorities in the jurisdictions of the residents concerned.     I certainly have to report my profits from SL on my regular tax returns and pay tax on them in the normal way, and I assume that's the case in most places.

Similarly, regulations against price fixing and so on would, presumably, be applicable in the jurisdictions where the the residents concerned are based.    You'd have to provide details to the regulators in the parties' local jurisdictions and see what they make of it.

Whether people pay taxes on the profits from their gacha businesses, though, or find themselves under investigation for fraud by local law enforcement, is not LL's problem.     

LL's problem is ensuring it remains in compliance with all the relevant laws and regulations that govern LL's activities, not those of individual residents.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Innula Zenovka

[Mollymews]

i don't think Linden will ever release a Linden-approved script for this

when the script comes under pressure, say at an event where multiple avatars are constantly clicking on the device, and region script time is way down because avatars, a script's event queue can get disordered. And when it does and people don't get what they think they paid for then Linden Support is going to get hammered with tickets

it is possible to ameliorate a lot of unwanted in the moment Touch and Pay actions but it can get murky pretty quickly sometimes

ps. Am pretty sure tho that someone will drop an opensource conveyor/roller script before the end of the month

Edited August 6, 2021 by Mollymews

[Rosa Hexem]

5 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

i don't think Linden will ever release a Linden-approved script for this

when the script comes under pressure, say at an event where multiple avatars are constantly clicking on the device, and region script time is way down because avatars, a script's event queue can get disordered. And when it does and people don't get what they think they paid for then Linden Support is going to get hammered with tickets

it is possible to ameliorate a lot of unwanted in the moment Touch and Pay actions but it can get murky pretty quickly sometimes

I think you're right that LL won't want to make this something where they end up dealing with a bunch of reports every time their script or any is deemed to be unfair. Frankly I just don't have enough faith in LL to imagine them putting that much effort into something relatively small like this to them.

That being said I'm still open to the idea of LL making and distributing a script that they think is okay as an example for a conveyor (without them becoming a regulator for if a conveyor is fair or not). It might just make the adoption of these kinds of vendors a bit more painless if a foundnation is put out there which merchants feel confident in using both in terms of functionality and legality.

[Cinos Field]

11 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

i don't think Linden will ever release a Linden-approved script for this

when the script comes under pressure, say at an event where multiple avatars are constantly clicking on the device, and region script time is way down because avatars, a script's event queue can get disordered. And when it does and people don't get what they think they paid for then Linden Support is going to get hammered with tickets

it is possible to ameliorate a lot of unwanted in the moment Touch and Pay actions but it can get murky pretty quickly sometimes

ps. Am pretty sure tho that someone will drop an opensource conveyor/roller script before the end of the month

Well, it is very easy to script. I'd make one but I'm still not convinced that there wasn't some kind of miscommunication between the lindens and the lawyers...

Edited August 6, 2021 by Cinos Field

[Innula Zenovka]

10 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

i don't think Linden will ever release a Linden-approved script for this

Why would they want to?   

[Mollymews]

46 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

Well, it is very easy to script. I'd make one but I'm still not convinced that there wasn't some kind of miscommunication between the lindens and the lawyers...

i think that quite a few gacha scripters will be beavering away already

is only a 3 week window to do robust testing before the scripts have to go live, if the gacha shop is to not close for business waiting on scripts

Linden could change the policy again true, but I think that the gacha scripters and shop owners who have started already will take that if it comes

Edited August 6, 2021 by Mollymews

[Mollymews]

14 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Why would they want to?   

yes thats the question

if Linden were ever to go down this path then they would be heading into the area of Smart Objects

and if they ever did decide to start making Smart Objects avaiable then I would be quite happy about that

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Shuichi Shinji said:

In my opinion, LL should not interfere with anything that is or can be created by inworld content creators, in this case scripters (even if one scripter wins the contest and provides the scipt for all to use, it would not result in the same earnings). I know, this is just one script and I can see the benefit of the idea, but I fear it would just open a can of worms...

the problem is... if sellers (some or more) are able to go around restrictions, they will.
LL needs to have a control option. Permission for only their script would be one.

[Stella Davros]

54 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

i don't think Linden will ever release a Linden-approved script for this

when the script comes under pressure, say at an event where multiple avatars are constantly clicking on the device, and region script time is way down because avatars, a script's event queue can get disordered. And when it does and people don't get what they think they paid for then Linden Support is going to get hammered with tickets

it is possible to ameliorate a lot of unwanted in the moment Touch and Pay actions but it can get murky pretty quickly sometimes

ps. Am pretty sure tho that someone will drop an opensource conveyor/roller script before the end of the month

Of course some script will be dropped soon.....the think is if is better with hud or without...and for my opinion will be better to put like 2 vendors for each set and of course for the event better open in 2 regions 

[Mollymews]

1 minute ago, Stella Davros said:

 my opinion will be better to put like 2 vendors for each set and of course for the event better open in 2 regions 

yes agree. 2 or more vendors for the same popular sets will be where it ends up

[Da5id Weatherwax]

10 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

We already have gacha machines that punish/milk players who have shown interest in repeat plays.

There are EVIL gacha machines and we will see EVIL rollers.

This. 100%.

I mentioned in another couple of posts my brief episode as a carnie. This is EXACTLY the sort of thing would have bunko operators drooling.

The essence of a bunko game is that it looks "fairer" than it is. It looks like you've got an even chance when in fact it is controlled by the operator to a degree you wouldn't believe possible. Sleight-of-hand to rival Penn &Teller, "technicals" (looked down on by old-school operators as too simple and, more to the point, too easy for an observer to detect) visually deceptive designs, the lot. A game that looks at least somewhat "fair" (best and most profitable of all are the ones where an observer concludes that sufficient skill can beat it, but  in fact it's nigh impossible) is, in fact, rigged seven ways from Sunday.

Of the first 10 "conveyor belt" type scripts written to operate these vendors, I guarantee at least half will be rigged. The percentage of rigged ones will then increase as time goes by until most of them are.

Don't want to get ripped off? Don't play bunko. That 3-foot-tall teddy bear with the slushy message on its tshirt you want to present to the object of your romantic interest is NOT going to be yours unless the game operator has been reading the crowd and decides that it's time for a "big payout" to happen and none of his paid shills are around to be given it. If you ARE given it, it will be shoddily made and you'll be given the one that has been trucked across a dozen states for three years and will never, no matter what you do, stop smelling of diesel. Above all, NEVER play "money bunko" where "winning" the game gets you something of actual value. What you get will be both less valuable than it looks and cost you a lot more to get your hands on than you thought it would..

[Stella Davros]

2 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

yes agree. 2 or more vendors for the same popular sets will be where it ends up

Do you remember that gacha event (pocket gacha)a couple of years ago where they was giving a hud for play? I think that kind of hud will be fine as with the hud can play multiple people at the same time but everybody have the own belt list like this no one can sniping 

[Cinos Field]

2 minutes ago, Stella Davros said:

Do you remember that gacha event (pocket gacha)a couple of years ago where they was giving a hud for play? I think that kind of hud will be fine as with the hud can play multiple people at the same time but everybody have the own belt list like this no one can sniping 

Yeah, but the stipulations for which it'd be allowed specifically mentioned that it needs to unlock between plays. So would the hud one that stays locked to you by necessity be allowed, then?

Edited August 6, 2021 by Cinos Field

[Stella Davros]

5 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

Yeah, but the stipulations for which it'd be allowed specifically mentioned that it needs to unlock between plays. So would the hud one that stays locked to you by necessity be allowed, then?

If the hud will be same of pocket gacha could be locked on you also by necessity i think cause was like personal hud where u can buy even from your home you needed to go trought the event to buy the hud and charge tokens (equivalent of linden) and once u open the hud u can see each vendor and start play just who will script have to put that once you open the hud the current item have to be stacked till you buy that item i mean have to be related to your UUID 

[Teagan Tobias]

8 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Sure, after having to purchase 5or 6 things you don't want, dream come true.  At least with a gacha, that first purchase might be the one you want.  Basically, a vendor where you have to buy items you don't want to be able to buy what you do want.  

Back to my analogy about wanting to buy a toaster at Walmart but them making me buy a coffee maker, tea pot and microwave when all I want is a toaster.  Sell me the dang toaster ffs.  But I guess they wouldn't make as much money.

(I did bolding)

Yes, my point exactly, thank you.