New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Komarimono]

3 minutes ago, ZacharyFen said:

Ok you people are obviously one track minded not to see i listed a few gambling technics that the whole usa uses and im sure other countries use. Gotchas are a 1 set price item, most of which if you play an x amount of times your guranteed a rare. Of course many people also dont realise that gotchas for the quality they are are below what marketplace value would be. While you can easily resale the duplicate gachas to get almost all your money back there is no gambling involved because of the resale of the item, NOW if it was no trade items then we can say it is a gamble but these items are indeed tradable making them a marketable item.

 

Were not paying high prices for great quality items nore are we chancing much into it, As stated again it can only be gambling if your not able to market from it Hence no trade.

I've nearly a thousand Gacha items I cannot resell over the years, I've tried.  I've even tried dumping them into the $1L places.  Only way I can get rid of them, is just delete them or give them to people for free.  Know why?  Since most Gacha have junk colors no one wants, or pieces they see as undesirable.  Why when you look in the Market Place, you'll see that Gacha you paid $100L for is selling for $50L and not selling, pages of them.  So no, I'm not getting any of my money back as you're claiming, hardly anyone ever does minus re-sellers who buy low and try and sell for a tiny profit to another person.

[Ellie Ilo]

On the day of the new Policy release, I spent time on Live Chat discussing it with an agent. My take home was the following: Gacha is not ending anytime soon. It is only the Blind-Buy/Game of Chance/Lucky Dip element of Gacha that is no more. For example, no more lots of random Gacha in the machines and Lucky Dip Boards. Gacha buyers and Resellers can continue to still have a room full of Gacha machines so long as the machines are displaying 'everything' they are selling in that machine, and the buyers get 'absolutely everything' that the seller advertised during that transaction. For example, If it is an individual advertising image displayed on the machine - then the machine must give that exact item. If it is a Fatpack/Fullset image displayed on the machine - then the machine must give the Fatpack/Fullset.

However, I just saw that Patch Linden stated on the Forum:
"Additionally, whatever comes out on the other end of this can no longer be called "gacha". Make no illusions or ways to circumvent getting around it, but "gacha" is gone for good; we should not call it that anymore going forward with any proposed idea to reincarnate it in some way...." 

I am now officially confused. So not Long Live Gacha then? 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Ellie Ilo

[Fionalein]

Gumball machines, skill gaming, casino gambling, charity raffles ...

it's all gambling in a semantic interpretation of the word... the big difference here is regulations and legal definitions. There are different types of gaming for a win and gazillions of legal subclasses of it each with their own regulations.

Your California gas station gumball machine does not matter (to this discussion) as it doesn't operate internationally. Yes, foreigners can visit it and use it but they have to physically travel there and thereby accept US and Cali laws. If you try to sell gumball pulls on the internet to an international market the whole thing would turn ugly fast.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Fionalein
clarification in brackets added

[Cristiano Midnight]

2 hours ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

I don't have a problem with it. In fact, I was sharing the Flickr photo that a member of the Fab Free staff had uploaded, and linking to their wordpress, to creators who didn't know about their gacha sale store list. I also got thanked by the woman and other creators as well for sharing so that they could contact her to put their store on the list. I also shared to all the fashion FB groups I am in as well. I like to help our community. 

Somehow you took what I said out of context with a negative assumption about me, twisting my words.

I was mentioning how 1 store said they "might" have gacha fatpacks in their store with a 50% off discount. That is a very old fashioned lure to bring people to your store.

Instead of being transparent and stating how many gacha discounted fatpacks they had placed out for purchase.

I made no assumption about you and didn't twist any words. My comment was just about seeing a surge of vendors now massively discounting their gachas to try to move as many as they can until they have to stop.  The not having a problem with it was about me - even though I am fine with the gacha ban and happy to see the practice go away, I don't have a problem with them trying to ride it out until the end.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Cristiano Midnight

[Ted McGregor]

Is there a gacha of a gumball machine ?

ETA : asking for a friend

Edited August 5, 2021 by TDD123

[LittleMe Jewell]

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Ok so you have only mentioned that a 134 times and counting. What is the real reason you have an issue with them?

I've said it before -- I do not have an issue with gacha, but I do have an issue with people that continue to spout false claims saying the reason they are being banned is because of folks complaining about them or because they are like gambling but not.

LL has said that it is related to legal stuff, not because some folks in SL complain about them -- yet folks still post that LL is banning them because of people complaining.

Additionally, whether or not anyone thinks that gacha is or is not gambling is irrelevant.  LL has apparently been given legal advice to ban them -- the reason does not matter.

Edited August 5, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[ZacharyFen]

4 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

I've nearly a thousand Gacha items I cannot resell over the years, I've tried.  I've even tried dumping them into the $1L places.  Only way I can get rid of them, is just delete them or give them to people for free.  Know why?  Since most Gacha have junk colors no one wants, or pieces they see as undesirable.  Why when you look in the Market Place, you'll see that Gacha you paid $100L for is selling for $50L and not selling, pages of them.  So no, I'm not getting any of my money back as you're claiming, hardly anyone ever does minus re-sellers who buy low and try and sell for a tiny profit to another person.

i Actually have sold all of mine not that of what i paid for but minuse a 1/3rd of what i paid for im happy to get a little back i wont complain of it at all. people will buy it if they want it.

[Silent Mistwalker]

Regular gumball machines are not gambling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gumball_machine

 

 

Where people get the idea that gumball machines are gambling comes from shysters like George Deskin.

https://www.moberlymonitor.com/story/news/2021/02/25/moberlys-deskins-1913-gumball-machine-led-illegal-gambling/4576611001/

https://www.wisconsinhistory.org/Records/Article/CS2636

[Komarimono]

Just now, ZacharyFen said:

i Actually have sold all of mine not that of what i paid for but minuse a 1/3rd of what i paid for im happy to get a little back i wont complain of it at all. people will buy it if they want it.

Exactly...  Glad you finally saw the truth.  And most times, you know what people want due to Market Prices.  Why you'll see in nearly every single Gacha, half the price for commons, then thousands of $L for the Rares and Ultra Rares.

To get those Ultra Rares, you have to be the luckiest person ever to get it on first roll every time, or invest money over and over for unwanted items by yourself and many others since they are getting those unwanted items as well, creating a flood of little value items that clog inventory until deleted.

[Cristiano Midnight]

2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I've said it before -- I do not have an issue with gacha, but I do have an issue with people that continue to spout false claims about the reason they are being banned is because of folks complaining about them or because they are like gambling but not.

LL has said that it is related to legal stuff, not because some folks in SL complain about them -- yet folks still post that LL is banning them because of people complaining.

Additionally, whether or not anyone thinks that gacha is or is not gambling is irrelevant.  LL's has apparently been given legal advice to ban them -- the reason does not matter.

Your patience in explaining this over and over again is laudable. 

[Rowan Amore]

25 minutes ago, Finite said:

Gum balls or toy machines. Cost a quarter. You get a random thing. Gachas in SL cost .21 to .63 cents. You get a random thing. People were kind enough above to agree to disagree. You constantly repeating yourself and forcing you view on others isn't likely going to change anyone's views either.

I play gacha because I want the whole thing. If you played gacha for just 1 of the 25 to 50 things in it then yes you were gambling and are now bitter about it. So thank you from the rest of us who played gacha for fun for ruining it for everyone.

But most people don't pump quarter after quarter into the gumball machine either.  And it's kids who usually ask a parent for the quarter.  They don't get the color they want so mom says...that's life.  Mom doesn't give them a roll of quarters.  Or, no sane parent would.

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Rowan Amore

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 minute ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

Your patience in explaining this over and over again is laudable. 

I'm avoiding work -- and there isn't much else going on in the forums right now.

[Athyssa Seafarer]

I find this very disappointing! Regulatory Changes be damned.. I highly doubt it has anything to do with that.  I L♥VE Gachas!! I even have taken gf's to Epiphany!! I do not see any regulation that could possibly be the cause for ending gachas permanently

The creators and designers have made unique items for gachas. Why curtail their creativity. It simply doesn't make sense. very, very sad to see my favorite gacha shops having to end their gacha sales

I now wonder what else LL is going to be doing to ruin our fun... ????

[Finite]

16 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

I've nearly a thousand Gacha items I cannot resell over the years, I've tried.  I've even tried dumping them into the $1L places.  Only way I can get rid of them, is just delete them or give them to people for free.  Know why?  Since most Gacha have junk colors no one wants, or pieces they see as undesirable.  Why when you look in the Market Place, you'll see that Gacha you paid $100L for is selling for $50L and not selling, pages of them.  So no, I'm not getting any of my money back as you're claiming, hardly anyone ever does minus re-sellers who buy low and try and sell for a tiny profit to another person.

Ya the dupes only sell when someone is trying to complete a set. Normally around when the gacha is released. The longer you wait the least likely they will sell. I tend to put my extras in MP for 25 to 50L and for the most part they sit there but every now and then I'll get a random sale. You certainly don't recoup everything but you recoup some. In the end I pay less to equal for a set than what people pay for fatpacks so for me it's just another way to shop.

I think people who went into a gacha thinking they were going to profit are the ones most bitter about it now. And yes they gambled since they only wanted the rare item so they could turn and sell it for some obnoxious price. If it were actually profitable to play gacha then everyone would have been playing it.

I think some people smart to gacha could maybe profit? Like there are gachas you just don't play if you are in it for profit. IE those with a gazillion items. Your odds are already bad before factoring in any scripted odds the creator may have added. Gachas with more than one rare are usually baits and someone who plays them regularly for profit probably wouldn't play those either. One rare will be relatively common while the other is super rare. They use the common "rare" to bait you into spending more to get the actual rare.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Finite

[Silas Merlin]

I think it is necessary to find a solution that does more than adhering to the new rule and the existing or future laws that are hypothetically at the root of the decision. 
That is, design a system that would be acceptable to the most dedicated oponent.

To establish stricter rules than necessary to comply.
In other words, regulate the new collectibles system.

Regulating the new system obviously has a cost in manpower.
However, if one of the rules were that a given percentage of all sales through the new system was to be given to a charity, then, maybe... there would be volunteers to undertake the task of moderating/approving new collectible series.

Here are examples of What I mean by stricter rules
(a list that will probably end up being so long and restrictive, should it come to be, that I will regret having suggested it) :
-Regulating the content, so that each item is a unique design, rather than a different colour.
-Deciding how many items are to be shown ahead of  time (only the current one ? the current one plus the next one ? the current one and the two items coming up ?)
-regulating what vendor script can be used (for example a script is being designed that is locked in such a way that the creator has no way to alter the order in which items will be chosen by the script)
-Restricting where such machines can be rezzed (to make the role of the volunteers easier)

etc...

That said, the two aspects that are absolutely necessary to retain in the new system to perpetuate the spirit of the old one are :
-The resident's choice is limited to buying or not buying the item that is being offered.
-the items have to be transferable.

Furthermore, the creators should retain the choice as to which (approved) script they are going to use, as well as the possibility to choose or design their own machine. How (or even whether) to display the charity should also remain their choice so as to be in total control of the look of their vendor.
 

TLDR : What I am proposing is going futher than complying with the rule in the hope that it will not be abused and will not draw new complaints and regulations that would result in the new system being banned as well.

EDIT: Removed redundant text.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Silas Merlin

[Ashley Darkheart]

18 minutes ago, Ellie Ilo said:

Dear Gacha Creators: You do NOT have to say goodbye to Gacha or change all of your Gachas to Mod/Copy - you can still participate in the Gacha experience by selling full packs 'Transfer' and a Mod/Copy option if you wish. 

Gacha is not ending anytime soon. It is only the Blind-Buy/Game of Chance/Lucky Dip element of Gacha that is no more. For example, no more lots of random Gacha in the machines and Lucky Dip Boards. Gacha buyers and Resellers can continue to still have a room full of Gacha machines so long as the machines are displaying 'everything' they are selling in that machine, and the buyers get 'absolutely everything' that the seller advertised during that transaction. For example, If it is an individual advertising image displayed on the machine - then the machine must give that exact item. If it is a Fatpack/Fullset image displayed on the machine - then the machine must give the Fatpack/Fullset.

Long Live Gacha! 
The Gacha Queen 🙃

P.S. Linden Lab: If my understanding is wrong, please kindly correct me and humiliate me in public - it is how I learn.

 

This may shed some light for you,  I hope this help

 

On 8/4/2021 at 6:06 AM, Patch Linden said:

Hey everyone,

Once again, thread is paused.  It's clearly going to need my team to spend some time this morning to both clean it up, hand out disciplinary action to those of you who can not be reasonably decent to others on here and for us to address some more issues. 

Additionally, whatever comes out on the other end of this can no longer be called "gacha".  Make no illusions or ways to circumvent getting around it, but "gacha" is gone for good; we should not call it that anymore going forward with any proposed idea to reincarnate it in some way.  We have been seeing a lot of good suggestions on new, interesting ways to sell content, many of which we have given to our general counsel for further legal opinion.  When we have that information back, the FAQ will be updated.

We have also been analyzing the 7seas Fishing Game further (yes we play it 🐠), and there is another mechanic at play which is the one-time purchase of the fishing rod (free or paid). The fishing rod to catch fish is all that is really required to play the game, there is no additional purchase required and with that you can catch all the fish (or other items) you desire.  In effect, the catches are free and have no value.  Purchasing bait to play the game gives experience for competition.  If purchasing bait increases the value of the fish (or items) caught, then the fish (or items) would then have to be no transfer.   I have seen some suggestions that it is a disguise to legalize gambling and a handful of other theories to twist the mechanics of the game.  This is clearly not the case and that is spreading misinformation, which needs to cease immediately.  

On edit:  Further in the problematic mechanics of the gacha systems, and in addition to what I said earlier, regarding the act of paying for something and in return the item/thing you receive back can not be based on chance, this includes the purchaser must know what they are purchasing in advance of the sale being made.  In other words, the purchaser must clearly see and understand what they are purchasing at the time of sale.

We will be back with more soon, for the time being this thread will remain on pause and we ask that you do not create additional threads on this topic as those will be locked so we can keep our focus here.

Thanks!

 

[Komarimono]

5 minutes ago, Alaintha Loring said:

I find this very disappointing! Regulatory Changes be damned.. I highly doubt it has anything to do with that.  I L♥VE Gachas!! I even have taken gf's to Epiphany!! I do not see any regulation that could possibly be the cause for ending gachas permanently

The creators and designers have made unique items for gachas. Why curtail their creativity. It simply doesn't make sense. very, very sad to see my favorite gacha shops having to end their gacha sales

I now wonder what else LL is going to be doing to ruin our fun... ????

What's to stop them from making those items?  There's hundreds of creators, who make beautiful and unique items without Gacha.  Very successful ones who don't need to rely on exploitative mechanics that Gacha brings with it.

If you make something someone wants, it will sell, sometimes at crazy prices.  Removing Gachas won't and simply cannot curtail creativity suddenly, it will simply mean they have to stick to a standard method of selling.

[Arielle Popstar]

4 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I've said it before -- I do not have an issue with gacha, but I do have an issue with people that continue to spout false claims about the reason they are being banned is because of folks complaining about them or because they are like gambling but not.

LL has said that it is related to legal stuff, not because some folks in SL complain about them -- yet folks still post that LL is banning them because of people complaining.

Additionally, whether or not anyone thinks that gacha is or is not gambling is irrelevant.  LL's has apparently been given legal advice to ban them -- the reason does not matter.

Well we don't know to what extent people have complained about them. I have in past though never officially and looking at the number of posters who are ecstatic about their demise, I suspect a fair number have not liked them in past so maybe for LL this was an opportunity to get rid of something that was questionable and now had a potential legal issue behind it to put some weight behind their decision.

Regardless it is a discussion thread that is allowing some to vent their frustrations at the decision and to potentially look for alternative methods of being able to market what are in many cases superior products, for a fair price to both creator and consumer. If it is considered a rare item that obviously increases its value. 

I don't get this having to jump on every poster who is unhappy about the decision to stop this. Most to my mind are simply going through the stages of letting go: 1. Denial, 2. Anger, 3. Bargaining, 4. Sadness, 5. Acceptance. The more their concerns are minimized and trivialized, the longer it will take.

[Sinvares Tenk]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

But most people don't pump quarter after quarter into the gumball machine either.  And it's kids who usually ask a parent for the quarter.  They don't get the color they want so mom says...that's life.  Mom doesn't give them a roll of quarters.  Or, no sane parent would.

 

To that child they want their favorate color,  To you..... You want the color you want. I completely understand where that individual is comming from and i find it sad that people are seriously trying to make a joke of it, in all honesty they are the joke because the guy makes a perfect point. Its the same concept why should it only pertain to adults only. To many people are one track minded and can never look outside of a box because their set to one track and only one.

 

Given the fact id have to agree that gochas just are not gambling, Its what we call a great marketing oppurtunity, While you can resale them and possibly not of the same gatcha price you can safely say you will get something back in return. In gambling it always involves losing most if not all, prize giving isn't entirely gambling ok you see something your like so you try a few times. While your not losing money because each turn your winning an item sometime the same but most of the time its something diferent. The chances of not getting a rare is not insanly high, and not all items of rare people want. At the point that all of the items are resalable and Marhetable makes it a non Gambling item. There is no work around on this. The point that if it was a no transfer item making it a gamble yes that is very correct, but since these items are tradable and resalable doesnt make it a game it makes it a market.

 

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Finite said:

We should be able to laugh and like a comment simultaneously. SL can afford litigation as well. They aren't as rich as Apple but they're still at least a billion dollar company. I think SL is trying to avoid regulation and prying eyes. Which is probably a good thing for all of us.

Of course, why wouldn't LL just go ahead and spend countless millions on litigation as opposed to simply getting ahead of the situation.  Why would any company NOT be proactive?  It's good business.  The amount of money that is generated from gachas probably does not outweigh the cost of litigation.  I'm sure their lawyers and accountants thought this through a bit more than any of us.

[Komarimono]

4 minutes ago, Sinvares Tenk said:

To that child they want their favorate color,  To you..... You want the color you want. I completely understand where that individual is comming from and i find it sad that people are seriously trying to make a joke of it, in all honesty they are the joke because the guy makes a perfect point. Its the same concept why should it only pertain to adults only. To many people are one track minded and can never look outside of a box because their set to one track and only one.

 

Given the fact id have to agree that gochas just are not gambling, Its what we call a great marketing oppurtunity, While you can resale them and possibly not of the same gatcha price you can safely say you will get something back in return. In gambling it always involves losing most if not all, prize giving isn't entirely gambling ok you see something your like so you try a few times. While your not losing money because each turn your winning an item sometime the same but most of the time its something diferent. The chances of not getting a rare is not insanly high, and not all items of rare people want. At the point that all of the items are resalable and Marhetable makes it a non Gambling item. There is no work around on this. The point that if it was a no transfer item making it a gamble yes that is very correct, but since these items are tradable and resalable doesnt make it a game it makes it a market.

 

I'd have to disagree, since the Gacha currently do not guarantee a sale for what you want.  I literally just tested it.  75L a pull.  Tried 30 times.  Did not get a single Rare from the Machine.  Sure, that's only what... $10 USD?  But that's over 2K L that someone won't get back.  It's a gamble, on what you get.  Saying otherwise is a lie.

[Sinvares Tenk]

6 minutes ago, Komarimono said:

I'd have to disagree, since the Gacha currently do not guarantee a sale for what you want.  I literally just tested it.  75L a pull.  Tried 30 times.  Did not get a single Rare from the Machine.  Sure, that's only what... $10 USD?  But that's over 2K L that someone won't get back.  It's a gamble, on what you get.  Saying otherwise is a lie.

Well lets just put it this way then, your donating to that vendor and in return your getting a random Free gift you can continue to donate to that vendor and continue to recieve a random Free gift. Now its no longer considered gambling. Now you can resale that FREE gift on the market to recieve some money back.

 

Problem solved. (drops Mic)

anything you buy on the marketplace is a gamble simple fact.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Sinvares Tenk

[Athyssa Seafarer]

1 minute ago, Komarimono said:

If you make something someone wants, it will sell, sometimes at crazy prices.  Removing Gachas won't and simply cannot curtail creativity suddenly, it will simply mean they have to stick to a standard method of selling.

Which is simply shopping, like every other shop. When I stated that designers/creators make a "Rare/Ultra Rare" item, we play in hopes we get that rare... yet, there are reasons for my playing certain gachas. I understand how they work, I know I may not get the item I want but I am sure I am going to get at least 1 item!

If you then break it down to "gambling" because what you see on the machine isn't what you received, then why not simply create different display information? You pay the machine, you receive an item... you are guaranteed an item with each purchase! How is that gambling?

As silly as it appears, to be so disappointed with this decision, LL has taken the "Fun" out of shopping for me... I don't play all gachas. When a creator I trust and thoroughly enjoy their creations and designs posts that have a new gacha, sure I am going to see it and try it! To me, that isn't gambling.  To now tell these people they MUST sell their items like everyone else.. sad and boring!

[Dorientje Woller]

6 minutes ago, Sinvares Tenk said:

Well lets just put it this way then, your donating to that vendor and in return your getting a random Free gift you can continue to donate to that vendor and continue to recieve a random Free gift. Now its no longer considered gambling. Now you can resale that FREE gift on the market to recieve some money back.

 

Problem solved. (drops Mic)

anything you buy on the marketplace is a gamble simple fact.

Slightly not. I have a store on Marketplace, and offers a free demo, so you can see what you get before you buy. AKA, it isn't a gamble.

[Komarimono]

4 minutes ago, Alaintha Loring said:

Which is simply shopping, like every other shop. When I stated that designers/creators make a "Rare/Ultra Rare" item, we play in hopes we get that rare... yet, there are reasons for my playing certain gachas. I understand how they work, I know I may not get the item I want but I am sure I am going to get at least 1 item!

If you then break it down to "gambling" because what you see on the machine isn't what you received, then why not simply create different display information? You pay the machine, you receive an item... you are guaranteed an item with each purchase! How is that gambling?

As silly as it appears, to be so disappointed with this decision, LL has taken the "Fun" out of shopping for me... I don't play all gachas. When a creator I trust and thoroughly enjoy their creations and designs posts that have a new gacha, sure I am going to see it and try it! To me, that isn't gambling.  To now tell these people they MUST sell their items like everyone else.. sad and boring!

Yes, you get an item, this is never denied.  But you're locked behind trying for other items to get the one you really want.  Many people rarely ever want all the items in current Gacha, majority want the Rares or Higher.  But to get to those rares, you must invest heavily into them. 

But your explanation could simply be put it another way.  Instead of just going to the Market Page of the creator you want to buy from, to get a certain item.  First you must purchase items from a separate page first, then another, hoping that randomly you get to the page you want for the item you want.