New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Finite]

34 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

To your next point: This thread? Is simply about the fact that gachas are considered gambling. They are illegal in many jurisdictions. This 100+ page thread is started and is about LL's legal department and the company stating that gachas are going away.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Did SL say because it is gambling or because of "changing regulatory climate"? The only people that have mentioned gambling in here are the talking heads on the forums. Gambling is already allowed in SL on skill gaming sims and allowed in the countries who banned loot boxes/gacha. Try playing no-devil and walking away feeling as if you weren't gambling . Not going to happen. You can play as "skilled" as possible and still lose because its all based on what kind of board you get in the beginning (aka chance) or the numbers that get called (aka chance). The outcome is already determined as soon as you put money in to play. All the numbers are hidden. The only possible "skill" you can have to win is to have superman-like x-ray vision. But even that won't help you if have a crappy board or if your numbers aren't even called.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Finite

[Silent Mistwalker]

8 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Your link backs up my statement.. 
"While gambling is legal under U.S. federal law, there are significant restrictions pertaining to interstate and online gambling, as each state is free to regulate or prohibit the practice within its borders."

When someone says "blah blah is illegal in the US" they mean federally. Federally, gambling is legal. Each state has their own restrictions which is why we have skilled gaming regions. Mind you i cant find anything that chart that applies to the states on the skilled gaming list that have commonality.. I mean, Delaware allows all types of gambling... Yet... 

Delaware is on the list.... 

That you would need to take up with LL and their legal team as only they know why LL has Delaware on their list. 

Look at Nevada. Only 2 not allowed is racetrack and lotteries and yet Nevada is on LL's list. 

Talk about a can of worms. 

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Komarimono said:

I don't think real life applies here.  I was looking for examples based in the Market Place or In World stores.  I see what you're getting out though.  But don't think it really applies well and not what they were referring to at all.  Since buying all the items of the set, and getting a bonus, would be no different then setting it up as a Fatpack to save on the hassle of it.

And we all know a lot of stores who include one or two options in the fat pack that are only available in that fat pack.  If I truly love the item, I'll purchase the pack.  If not, I'll just buy a couple that I like.  

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 minute ago, Finite said:

Gambling is already allowed in SL on skill gaming sims

LL will tell you that gambling most definitely is NOT ALLOWED.  Skill gaming is something totally different (yes, we the Residents know better).

Anyhow, to your point -- LL has said it is due to the "changing regulatory climate", but most of that changing climate is how Gacha and Lootboxes are viewed as gambling (or at least they are labeling that way because it makes it easier to regulate).

 

[Yingzi Xue]

16 minutes ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

It seems from this statement that you voice more than once in your post, that you don't consider any product in any gacha machine, to have worth. Even if people put in thousands of Lindens, it doesn't mean it is well over the value of the product(s).

My post spoke specifically of rares and the fact that the extra work done by the creator to make said rares may not necessarily justify (or most often does not justify) the extra expense a consumer puts into acquiring them.  This in no way negates the worth of gacha products in general, but puts into perspective the minimal effort often put into a rare by the creator (a retexture, for instance) vs the cost to the consumer, which definitely is not worth it to the consumer.

Some of the most innovative products in SL are sold in gachas.  I have no doubt they will continue to sell outside of the gacha mechanism.

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Yingzi Xue

[Finite]

1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

LL will tell you that gambling most definitely is NOT ALLOWED.  Skill gaming is something totally different (yes, we the Residents know better).

Anyhow, to your point -- LL has said it is due to the "changing regulatory climate", but most of that changing climate is how Gacha and Lootboxes are viewed as gambling (or at least they are labeling that way because it makes it easier to regulate).

 

I get that. I was just pointing out that the OP was about "changing regulatory climate" and not about what anyone's views or assumptions are.

[Stella Davros]

7 minutes ago, Finite said:

Did SL say because it is gambling or because of "changing regulatory climate"? The only people that have mentioned gambling in here are the talking heads on the forums. Gambling is already allowed in SL on skill gaming sims and allowed in the countries who banned loot boxes/gacha. Try playing no-devil and walking away feeling as if you weren't gambling . Not going to happen. You can play as "skilled" as possible and still lose because its all based on what kind of board you get in the beginning (aka chance) or the numbers that get called (aka chance). The outcome is already determined as soon as you put money in to play. All the numbers are hidden. The only possible "skill" you can have to win is to have superman-like x-ray vision. But even that won't help you if have a crappy board or if your numbers aren't even called.

Thats why will work if we implement gacha into the skill game machine

[Kathlen Onyx]

5 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

LL will tell you that gambling most definitely is NOT ALLOWED.  Skill gaming is something totally different (yes, we the Residents know better).

 

 

You think LL is that stupid they don't know? LOL, please.

[Finite]

Just now, Stella Davros said:

Thats why will work if we implement gacha into the skill game machine

I'm not interested in all that. I am fine with SL's take on gachas. I played in skill gaming sims for 2 or 3 days and walked away saying "ya this is gambling I don't like this". I didn't get the same feeling from all but 2 gachas I've ever played. I feel like if it were implemented in skill gaming sims most gacha will end up like the 2 I didn't like. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

17 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Most bars and... gentlemen's clubs will do the same for the designated driver.. 

I was just stating that I had more fun enjoying the lounge and the soda than the gambling xD. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Finite said:

I'm not interested in all that. I am fine with SL's take on gachas. I played in skill gaming sims for 2 or 3 days and walked away saying "ya this is gambling I don't like this". I didn't get the same feeling from all but 2 gachas I've ever played. I feel like if it were implemented in skill gaming sims most gacha will end up like the 2 I didn't like. 

I worked at a Skilled Gaming sim for a year as a greeter. It was overwhelming. Lol 

[Stella Davros]

2 minutes ago, Finite said:

I'm not interested in all that. I am fine with SL's take on gachas. I played in skill gaming sims for 2 or 3 days and walked away saying "ya this is gambling I don't like this". I didn't get the same feeling from all but 2 gachas I've ever played. I feel like if it were implemented in skill gaming sims most gacha will end up like the 2 I didn't like. 

Or maybe can be that will continue to like...never know...in the and the feeling that u have when u play gacha machine is the same but like this will be legal and plus at less spin gacha will be a game...this feeling is individually can work like can't work ahahaha btw could be an option for make gacha legal

[Katherine Heartsong]

17 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

LL will tell you that gambling most definitely is NOT ALLOWED.  Skill gaming is something totally different (yes, we the Residents know better).

Anyhow, to your point -- LL has said it is due to the "changing regulatory climate", but most of that changing climate is how Gacha and Lootboxes are viewed as gambling (or at least they are labeling that way because it makes it easier to regulate).

Yup! That's what I'm trying to say. Thanks!

Like it or not, at a country level loot boxes and gachas are being thought of as gambling (the very definition of gambling is pay and get a random result), and my point earlier about those being illegal have to to do with this growing perspective of gachas being a clear example of gambling (regardless if we think they are predatory or addictive or not), not the idea of gachas.

Furthermore, online gambling is very highly regulated and even when legal, has to be done only by licensed and regulated entities (see the UK, for example). LL is simply stepping away from any aspect of gambling, as they already have in the past. This is just a new form of gambling that has been recognized by legislators and they, LL, are being legally advised to ban.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Katherine Heartsong

[Finite]

2 minutes ago, Stella Davros said:

Or maybe can be that will continue to like...never know...in the and the feeling that u have when u play gacha machine is the same but like this will be legal and plus at less spin gacha will be a game...this feeling is individually can work like can't work ahahaha btw could be an option for make gacha legal

I'm just curious if the same regulatory climate in CA will have an effect on other SF based games makers such as Activision Blizzard. That would be interesting and more impactful imo than SL removing gacha from SL.

 

[Stella Davros]

3 minutes ago, Finite said:

I'm just curious if the same regulatory climate in CA will have an effect on other SF based games makers such as Activision Blizzard. That would be interesting and more impactful imo than SL removing gacha from SL.

 

I think that they will find a solution as their business is based on this kind of "gambling"

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Kytteh Wytchwood said:

Gachas were created as a way to get people with low budgets in real life, to purchase their products. It was done out of generosity at first.ofit.

I would say that originally gachas in Second Life were created by Japanese/Japanese-influenced creators for whom having gachapon in a virtual world would be as natural as having trees and houses. There was a Japanese creator who had a store full of remarkably good little items at L$1 a pull - when the store closed the full packs could be bought as copy/no transfer for L$99 for their group members.

They became big business after The Arcade event started. I'd say it's really well past its prime by now, and resale locations always had a pretty short shelf life to begin with.

[Katherine Heartsong]

12 minutes ago, Finite said:

I'm just curious if the same regulatory climate in CA will have an effect on other SF based games makers such as Activision Blizzard. That would be interesting and more impactful imo than SL removing gacha from SL.

Haven't numerous AAA titles already removed or drastically altered the loot box mechanic? Rocket League, Forza, Star Wars and others?

I know EA just a few months ago changed FIFA21 so that players are allowed to view the contents of a loot box before purchasing, thus removing the random/gambling element. Fortnite did that a few years ago too.

That kinda makes FIFA boxes more like fatpacks now that you can choose to buy or not, with full knowledge of what you are receiving for your real world funds.

That's always been the crux of the loot box issue ... if you make me pay for the chance to get something that will be random, that's gambling. In it's purest form. That is the regulatory climate that is changing.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Katherine Heartsong

[Gopi Passiflora]

All I'll say on this matter is: Yay! It will be easier to get stuff!

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, Finite said:

I'm just curious if the same regulatory climate in CA will have an effect on other SF based games makers such as Activision Blizzard. That would be interesting and more impactful imo than SL removing gacha from SL.

 

Apparently, there are a lot of cases already heard and settlements made.  Maybe it's the growing number of cases filed against other companies that has prompted LL to be proactive.  I know someone mentioned Apple going to court over something or other.  Comparing Apple to LL is like comparing...well, apples to oranges.  Money-wise, at least.  Apple can afford litigation.  

Loot Box Litigation Snapshot - March 7, 2021 — GAME CHANGERS (gamechangerslaw.com)

[Finite]

1 minute ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Haven't numerous AAA titles already removed or drastically altered the loot box mechanic? Rocket League, Forza, Star Wars and others?

I know EA just a few months ago changed FIFA21 so that players are allowed to view the contents of a loot box before purchasing, thus removing the random/gambling element. Fortnite did that a few years ago too.

Yes but they still have aspects of the game that encourage players to dump real money into them to progress which was part of the regulatory angst that began with loot boxes. Like you can play normally and progress your character slowly or you can pay in game currency to have someone "carry" you to have a chance to speed up the process. Since even a carry doesn't guarantee anything.

[Finite]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Apparently, there are a lot of cases already heard and settlements made.  Maybe it's the growing number of cases filed against other companies that has prompted LL to be proactive.  I know someone mentioned Apple going to court over something or other.  Comparing Apple to LL is like comparing...well, apples to oranges.  Money-wise, at least.  Apple can afford litigation.  

Loot Box Litigation Snapshot - March 7, 2021 — GAME CHANGERS (gamechangerslaw.com)

We should be able to laugh and like a comment simultaneously. SL can afford litigation as well. They aren't as rich as Apple but they're still at least a billion dollar company. I think SL is trying to avoid regulation and prying eyes. Which is probably a good thing for all of us.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Finite

[Ted McGregor]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Comparing Apple to LL is like comparing...well, apples to oranges raisins.  Money-wise, at least.

 

[Katherine Heartsong]

9 minutes ago, Finite said:

Yes but they still have aspects of the game that encourage players to dump real money into them to progress which was part of the regulatory angst that began with loot boxes. Like you can play normally and progress your character slowly or you can pay in game currency to have someone "carry" you to have a chance to speed up the process. Since even a carry doesn't guarantee anything.

It doesn't guarantee anything but let's take World of Tanks, as an example.

I have ground my way up to many Tier X tanks (the top of the lines). I could have done it free, but at times, I paid for better Armour Piercing shells to give me a technical advantage over some heavier tanks I knew I might be facing. What I know is that that AP shell will do better all things being equal, and am aware of all the stats etc for that shell. So I know exactly what I am buying, every detail, and exactly how much it could help me gain an advantage in the battlefield. Technically.

The skill comes in with me, as the tanker, actually utilising said shells in the optimum way. And trust me, on the whole, I maybe do so 40% of the time. So those shells have helped progress me, but they would have done better given a more skilled operator.

See where I'm going? There's nothing random here. Just my skill with better equipment. But that equipment? I know exactly what advantage it has and the exact nature of their statistics. There's nothing random (gambled) in my purchase ... it's not like I pay for AP shells and get HEs instead, or some lesser AP shell.

There's nothing predatory going on. I have all the info I need to make a choice as a consumer in a marketplace. With gachas, I do not know what I will get for my money ... I'm gambling. It's chance. it's random what I get. Not so in WoT (or fishing games apparently, since I am buying bait not hopefully bait).

That's the regulatory issue that governments are grappling with (and legislating) in this online world we live in.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Katherine Heartsong

[ZacharyFen]

I guess the legal system should think about removing gumball machines, arcade game places and any quarter machines since these are all by chance basis and considered "Gambling" in there book. But wait their not going to so LL does not have to remove gatcha machines since the legale system can't remove arcade, or quarter machines.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 minute ago, ZacharyFen said:

I guess the legal system should think about removing gumball machines, arcade game places and any quarter machines since these are all by chance basis and considered "Gambling" in there book. But wait their not going to so LL does not have to remove gatcha machines since the legale system can't remove arcade, or quarter machines.

*sigh*

Some folks JUST DO NOT GET IT