New Gacha Policy Discussion

[Dratzo]

Good always hated gacha you pay a lot and get lots of crap but hardly ever what you aim for, gacha is a scam!

[MoiraKathleen]

2 minutes ago, Finite said:

Let's say I concede that gacha is gambling then what is the issue? It's not illegal in the States.

Not all forms of gambling or skilled gaming are allowed in every state in the U.S.  In some states only certain forms are allowed in person (brick and mortar) and/or only certain forms are allowed to be played online.  I imagine most states have many nuances about what is allowed to be played and where it can be played.   For example, I always found it interesting that residents of Nevada cannot play skilled gaming in SL.  Although not SL related, I remember a hullabaloo over online Fantasy Football leagues some years ago, about whether it should be classified as gambling or should it be classified as skilled gaming ...  and either of those options would have made it illegal in some group of states (and I didn't follow that controversy to the end, to find out how it ended up being resolved).  

[Finite]

Just now, MoiraKathleen said:

Not all forms of gambling or skilled gaming are allowed in every state in the U.S.  In some states only certain forms are allowed in person (brick and mortar) and/or only certain forms are allowed to be played online.  I imagine most states have many nuances about what is allowed to be played and where it can be played.   For example, I always found it interesting that residents of Nevada cannot play skilled gaming in SL.  Although not SL related, I remember a hullabaloo over online Fantasy Football leagues some years ago, about whether it should be classified as gambling or should it be classified as skilled gaming ...  and either of those options would have made it illegal in some group of states (and I didn't follow that controversy to the end, to find out how it ended up being resolved).  

It is allowed in the US. Individual states decide whether to make it legal or however which they wish to regulate it. Gambling is not a US law.

[Dorientje Woller]

3 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Personally, I would never have agreed to any rule that dictates when, where and/or how I can sell my products. That is an emphatic NO!

Well, going to use example: Suppose you are a chicken farmer, and you sell your little pok pok animals in the US, but they are treated with chloride to prevent them to get ill. At some point you want to sell your product, chlorifide chicken meat in the EU. Well, going to tell you with a straight face: "Sorry, you can't, because chlorifide chicken meat in the EU is banned, for health reasons". Only thing you can do to get a foothold on the EU is bend to our will, and start producing chicken meat from chickens that haven't been treated with chloride.

[Perrie Juran]

3 minutes ago, Finite said:

It is allowed in the US. Individual states decide whether to make it legal or however which they wish to regulate it. Gambling is not a US law.

One of the problems here is that with gachas we are talking about ON LINE gambling.

Be prepared for a long read, but the salient points are this:

 

In very general terms, it is a federal crime

• to use wire communications to place or receive bets on, or to transmit gambling information relating to, sporting contests or events;⁵
• to conduct a large-scale gambling business in violation of state law;⁶
• to travel interstate or overseas, or to use any other facility of interstate or foreign commerce, to facilitate the operation of an illegal gambling business;⁷
• to conduct a gambling business and accept payment for illegal Internet gambling participation;⁸
• to systematically commit these crimes in order to acquire or operate a commercial enterprise;⁹
• to launder the proceeds of an illegal gambling business or to plow them back into the business;¹⁰
• to spend or deposit more than $10,000 of the proceeds of illegal gambling in any manner;¹¹ or
• to conspire with others, or to aid and abet them, in their violation of any of these federal laws.¹²

https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/97-619.html

[Finite]

14 minutes ago, Perrie Juran said:

One of the problems here is that with gachas we are talking about ON LINE gambling.

Be prepared for a long read, but the salient points are this:

 

In very general terms, it is a federal crime

• to use wire communications to place or receive bets on, or to transmit gambling information relating to, sporting contests or events;⁵
• to conduct a large-scale gambling business in violation of state law;⁶
• to travel interstate or overseas, or to use any other facility of interstate or foreign commerce, to facilitate the operation of an illegal gambling business;⁷
• to conduct a gambling business and accept payment for illegal Internet gambling participation;⁸
• to systematically commit these crimes in order to acquire or operate a commercial enterprise;⁹
• to launder the proceeds of an illegal gambling business or to plow them back into the business;¹⁰
• to spend or deposit more than $10,000 of the proceeds of illegal gambling in any manner;¹¹ or
• to conspire with others, or to aid and abet them, in their violation of any of these federal laws.¹²

https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/97-619.html

Gawd these states confuse me so much sometimes. We can gamble in the states that allow it but can only gamble online if the place where the site is located is overseas... I can see where SL is coming from.

[Mollymews]

57 minutes ago, Perrie Juran said:

But it is 

Perrie Juran

gosh there's a name not seen for ages and ages. This thread is turning into old home week  😺

i seen a few other names as well

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

56 minutes ago, Finite said:

Let's say I concede that gacha is gambling then what is the issue? It's not illegal in the States.

I really wish people would take the blinders off and recognize that their country is just one of over 190. Lootboxes have been under scrutiny in Europe and many other countries for years. That SL can operate in almost any country means that LL has to abide by their laws. That lootboxes aren't illegal in the US is irrelevant when they are illegal in countries where SL operates.

[Mollymews]

3 hours ago, Faly Breen said:

cards. the one who will pay the vendor will get 1 random card out of (sample) 50. im unsure if that counts or not.

giving a card randomly drawn from a set of 50  is not allowed anymore when the buyer has to pay to receive the card

[Finite]

12 minutes ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

I really wish people would take the blinders off and recognize that their country is just one of over 190. Lootboxes have been under scrutiny in Europe and many other countries for years. That SL can operate in almost any country means that LL has to abide by their laws. That lootboxes aren't illegal in the US is irrelevant when they are illegal in countries where SL operates.

Yet SL only responded when there were rumblings that something might be handed down in the state they operate from. No blinders here. SL is reacting to a US state law or one in the works. Most EU countries allow online forms of gambling. They take issue with the ones targeting kids or games kids play. In fact the only way an American can online gamble according to a link posted above is if the website is located overseas.

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Finite

[Alwin Alcott]

6 hours ago, VanessaJane66 said:

 Sellers who only aim to sell to those with deep pockets are cutting off their noses to spite their faces. I am sure you are currently feeling very smug about your purchasing power, good for you.  No reason to be patronising to lots of people like me.  By the way I have a job in SL.

i don't think what is meant and said is against people on a budget. But it is a sensitive subject.
Compare it to RL.. there are car brands for every wallet... from Trabant to Rolls Royce.
I can't afford a Rolls but my Citroen C1 does also have 4 wheels to bring me to the same places as that Rolls.
The same principle is in SL too.

Be proud on your affordable,, still good quality, items.. it's yours, earned with your own hands.
Your not a less buyer/user/resident if your wallet isn't filled as some others.
But also don't see the "have'rs as superior, they aren't)

[Alwin Alcott]

5 hours ago, Silas Merlin said:

The only way that I can continue to sell my gacha items after the end of this month is if a new system to make the items difficult to get is approved by Linden Lab.

you have to change "can" in "want" ... you don't nééd to make it hard to get items. You can price them.

[Dorientje Woller]

26 minutes ago, Finite said:

 Most EU countries allow online forms of gambling. They take issue with the ones targeting kids or games kids play.

 

It's not only that, as not only kids and games kids play. Most AAA, MMO's, RPG's are played by young adults to even adults. Sadly, as with each aspect of life, there is a section of the population that is weak to the temptations of it. Let me ask you a question: Would you like it that your partner is wasting his salary to what is in fact pixalated crap that serves nobody in real life, to an extend that you have to get a loan to buy you for example a TV. It's, beside protecting kids while they are playing also protecting adults from the excesses we witness in the gaming industry.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Monstaar said:

That is in a sense an "edge", yeah?

On what? What is the end goal of SL? What possible edge is there in having a rare dress? 

[Perrie Juran]

2 hours ago, Finite said:

Gawd these states confuse me so much sometimes. We can gamble in the states that allow it but can only gamble online if the place where the site is located is overseas... I can see where SL is coming from.

If, as I have read this thread, some are making a "RL" living from gochas, then we have to be talking about sums exceeding $10,000 U.SD. RL.

[Silas Merlin]

6 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I'm not a Gacha creator or a Gacha collector, so my opinion matters little on the issue.  I have heard both sides of the issue argued here and I can fully understand both sides.  

I hear more people saying they want a way to still get the gachas, even if they are sold as regular store items.  I've heard very few argue the other side of it -- at least here in the forums.

That is precisely the problem in this thread. the actual gacha players are underrepresented if at all. Maybe some are reading, but I doubt it, because they are being repeatedly stigmatized with numerous pejorative attributes (and creators too for that matter).

The voices being heard (hammered would be a better word) are a handful of gacha haters who are delighted to see the gacha gone because they think this means they are finally going to be able to get their hands on the goods easily for the same price (being under the wrong impression that the true price of the item is that of the pull on the machine).

 

[Sid Nagy]

1 hour ago, Silas Merlin said:

That is precisely the problem in this thread. the actual gacha players are underrepresented if at all. Maybe some are reading, but I doubt it, because they are being repeatedly stigmatized with numerous pejorative attributes (and creators too for that matter).

The voices being heard (hammered would be a better word) are a handful of gacha haters who are delighted to see the gacha gone because they think this means they are finally going to be able to get their hands on the goods easily for the same price (being under the wrong impression that the true price of the item is that of the pull on the machine).

 

This thread is nice to vent some opinions pro of contra gachas but it doesn't matter at all what people think about the matter.
There is no wiggle room.
LL rightfully so listens to their RL legal advisers. And their stance is clear: Gachas have to go to keep the company out of legal troubles in the (near) future.

The only really useful discussion here is for the gacha merchants to see how to continue their business without gachas and to establish what other things will fall under the ban or need to be adjusted. 

But the end of the gachas in SL is a done deal no matter what we as forum users think about it.
There is no contest that decides the future of the gachas going on here.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[Marianne Little]

8 hours ago, Silas Merlin said:

It is not "some of the gacha events", it is the intrinsic characteristic of a gacha item, the understanding that it will never be made available for sale directly by the creator in Second Life.

The new policy does not suddenly make it alright to break that rule.
It would make the millions(?) of gacha items out there worthless.

The only way that I can continue to sell my gacha items after the end of this month is if a new system to make the items difficult to get is approved by Linden Lab.


EDIT : added "in Second Life" to the first paragraph.

No, it is your sense of duty and that you must honor a "contract" that took away your right to do what you want with your own property.

Now the rules for gacha have changed. You can close your business and let your hundreds of statues sit in your inventory. Or you can set up vendors like any sensible creator would do.

What will the punishment be if you sell your gacha items? You will be banned from future gacha events?... Oops, it will be no future gacha events.

Or those who made the rules will come after you with a RL lawyer?

[Chris Corvinus]

Does this ban apply to Skilled Gaming Regions? 🤔

[Dorientje Woller]

16 minutes ago, Chris Nova said:

Does this ban apply to Skilled Gaming Regions? 🤔

You answered your own question. Gacha is not a skilled game, it's based on chance, randomness, luck. Games on the Skilled Gaming Regions are based on skill, some form of control over the outcome of the game.

[Chris Corvinus]

1 minute ago, Dorientje Woller said:

You answered your own question. Gacha is not a skilled game, it's based on chance, randomness, luck. Games on the Skilled Gaming Regions are based on skill, some form of control over the outcome of the game.

Omg I’m so overtired. I meant does the ban apply to putting gachas on Skilled Gaming Regions since it’s a form of gambling. But I guess you answered it lol

[Stella Davros]

33 minutes ago, Chris Nova said:

Omg I’m so overtired. I meant does the ban apply to putting gachas on Skilled Gaming Regions since it’s a form of gambling. But I guess you answered it lol

Why then the creators put gacha items into a kind of zyngo machine where you will play and win gacha prizes instead of money like this will be considered "skilled" category because will work exactly like skill games that already exist.....obviously have to be scripted that every spin you will win something and all combination have to be assigned to x prize and the bonus combination will be the rare or the entirely full set....it s an idea and nobody can say no because is random....also the zyngo pay random but there is the ability that keep everything legal 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Stella Davros

[Qie Niangao]

29 minutes ago, Stella Davros said:

Why then the creators put gacha items into a kind of zyngo machine where you will play and win gacha prizes instead of money like this will be considered "skilled" category because will work exactly like skill games that already exist.....obviously have to be scripted that every spin you will win something and all combination have to be assigned to x prize and the bonus combination will be the rare or the entirely full set....it s an idea and nobody can say no because is random....also the zyngo pay random but there is the ability that keep everything legal 

Yeah, that's come up a few times in the thread. It's possible, and the more identical the scripting is to existing, approved "skill games" the shorter the time it would take to get them approved. Nonetheless, most likely that approval interval would be months, if not years.

[ETA: as long as we're on the subject, any gacha fans should realize that the skill gaming regions are strictly limited to access by which country the visitor comes from, rated Adult (if I recall correctly), and it's an expensive proposition. It might conceivably be that a gacha-like skill-gaming mall could serve numerous merchants, but profitability might be difficult.]

Edited August 5, 2021 by Qie Niangao

[Stella Davros]

16 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah, that's come up a few times in the thread. It's possible, and the more identical the scripting is to existing, approved "skill games" the shorter the time it would take to get them approved. Nonetheless, most likely that approval interval would be months, if not years.

[ETA: as long as we're on the subject, any gacha fans should realize that the skill gaming regions are strictly limited to access by which country the visitor comes from, rated Adult (if I recall correctly), and it's an expensive proposition. It might conceivably be that a gacha-like skill-gaming mall could serve numerous merchants, but profitability might be difficult.]

Well for who come from the regions that are banned exist the vpn 😀 but if the sistem will be well organized i think is more fun at less will be even a game ahahahahh and for now i think that is one of the best solutions and for who play gachas and for who resell will be fine, at less they can keep going on with the fun or business or whatever and the events can going on (arcade will be really arcade 😀)

Edited August 5, 2021 by Stella Davros

[LemmeStore]

Hello, Im the owner of a store called LEMME. My store is half gacha based. This message goes to creators and events looking for new solutions to this big change.

I had an idea inspired on Epiphany exclusive item to the next possible fun-sale system. I just wanted to share it to see what you think and if it can be one of the possible proposals.

What if we (designers) keep creating complete sets, like we used to do in gacha. Then , at the events or mainstores, we release them by selling all the separate items, so the customer can cleary see and choose what to buy. But in adition of making this more fun , every "common" item gives you points, like in Epiphany. Every common gives you 1 point, and then you get RARE for free, as a "gift", only if you buy and complete the whole set. Once you have all the points (if the set has 12 items, then 12 points) you click on Rare and you get it. Can be the rare or can be another second "rare" ...who knows, just thinking out loud. Ofc this doesnt imply to trade your points in order to get this "gift or rare" thing. You get the points, you keep your items and you obtain this prize.

And we can value the commons prices by its complexity etc having a range prices based on that. I mean, is just one idea for some sets, and we can still sell some others as fatpack or individual and give the chance to buy a "rare" directly.

Maybe is a silly proposal but I think we need to start thinking on what to do, specially the stores like mine, based on gachas.

Im not trying to iniciate a discussion based on negative reactions, so please just reply if you think this could work or if you can make it better, or why this wouldnt work at all comments are ofc welcome too. But Im not in the mood to read if gacha is gambling or is not. Gachas are gone, we move on looking for creative solutions that work in a fun and also legal way

Edited August 5, 2021 by LemmeStore