Zuckerberg Comes for the Metaverse

[animats]

Facebook's chief financial officer has been heard from. He says Facebook expects to spend $5 billion on this. There are already 700 job openings.

                                                                                                                                            

[Mr Amore]

When virtual worlds are discussed we rarely see Second Life mentioned now because it's considered a failure.

And you may protest a steady performance of 40,000 concurrent users, a respectable figure for any game. And that is the issue, this number hasn't grown in over a decade.

 

Meanwhile Roblox, which is almost as old as SL, measures its concurrent users in the millions. The game was largely promoted by its demographic, mostly children play it and introduce others to Roblox in their schools. But their support for creators, building tools and ease of deploying content in the world make SL look prehistoric by comparison.

Disclaimer: I've never installed Roblox and have only seen their building environment from youtbube videos, maybe there are glaring issues I'm not aware of yet it's clearly working for their creators. Meanwhile, SL hasn't had a functional beta grid since last year because that's how deeply LL values its creators.

 

Going forwards, here's an excerpt from a recent BBC article https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57942909

Quote

Behavioural data

"Part of the reason Facebook is so heavily invested in VR/AR is that the granularity of data available when users interact on these platforms is an order of magnitude higher than on screen-based media," Verity McIntosh, a VR expert at the University of the West of England, told the BBC.

"Now it's not just about where I click and what I choose to share, it's about where I choose to go, how I stand, what I look at for longest, the subtle ways that I physically move my body and react to certain stimuli. It's a direct route to my subconscious and that is gold to a data capitalist.

"It seems unlikely that Facebook will have an interest in changing a business model that has served them so well to prioritise user privacy or to give users any meaningful say in how their behavioural data in the 'metaverse' will be used."

Tech giants like Facebook defining and colonising the space, while traditional governance structures struggle to keep up with the technological change could cause further issues, she added.

 

It really is the evolution of the virtual world, where the host is mining every little detail. The place an avatar faces, the object its focused onto, every word written, every surface touched, all of it permanently associated with a real identity. This marks the transition of the Internet into a new era of creepy.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Mr Amore

[Quistess Alpha]

5 hours ago, Mr Amore said:

It really is the evolution of the virtual world, where the host is mining every little detail. The place an avatar faces, the object its focused onto, every word written, every surface touched, all of it permanently associated with a real identity. This marks the transition of the Internet into a new era of creepy.

Yeah. I'm not signing up for 1984 the VR.

[Lindal Kidd]

Facebook/Oculus Quest is already testing out advertising in VR.

[Coffee Pancake]

23 hours ago, Mr Amore said:

When virtual worlds are discussed we rarely see Second Life mentioned now because it's considered a failure.

And you may protest a steady performance of 40,000 concurrent users, a respectable figure for any game. And that is the issue, this number hasn't grown in over a decade.

The only metric that defines success is growth, even when that's irrelevant.

Everything capitalism touches dies by design. If the product isn't growing, by definition it must be in decline. it can't offer ever increasing returns then other means of extracting that value must be sought before the product collapses, even if those extra returns strangle the product.

The way Sansar shaped out placed a very clear spotlight on the determinations made from SL's failure to show growth, none of which are good for us .. or as it turned out, good for virtual worlds in general.

Media isn't interested in stability. They care about bubbles and hype. Which is why virtual words notable for their buzzwords, astronomical budgets and lack of participants get all the attention. 

 

Notable (and entirely false) reasons for SL's lack of growth include;

• poor graphics (it's our fault)
• poor performance (it's our / the programmers fault)
• adult content (those damn perverts)
• it's economy (how can LL make more money if they keep giving it us!)
• absence of buzzwords (blockchains, VR, etc)
• marketing (but .. no one will join if LL don't advertise)
• complexity & viewer UI (SL is hard and people are feeble / busy)
• new user experience (worse than feeble? .. )
• and others.

Systematically approaching each of these will not affect SL's growth or change its circumstances. All of those faults are also major reasons why SL has persisted - SL as a platform offers unparalleled depth, creative and personal freedom

It's likewise flawed to blame simple mismanagement .. when SL was growing like a rocket, it was run by the Love Machine which is about as close to gamified intentional chaos as you can get> LL got very good at management, maybe they overcompensated and matured a bit too quickly.

 

The only exciting part about facebook being in the game now is this could be a way for facebook to show more growth, it's not a grand design, it's part of a general pattern of reinvention and 'keep throwing mud at the wall' strategy to extend and retain relevance. It's just their way of looking at growing industry hype and saying - I can do that too .. please stay!

This does indicate the way for SL to get out of the doldrums, and is one lesson LL management need to take to heart. More vision. More reinvention. More mud. More walls.

SL's days as a cash cow need to end and that money be plough relentlessly back into the platform. To put a fine point on this, that means more delivery focused staff and more projects directly related to the core product. No Sansar fever dreams, no making a different better world for different better customers, this world but with lasers.

40K of us logging in everyday is a solid indication there are 400K other people just like us.

[Drayke Newall]

On 7/29/2021 at 9:17 PM, Mr Amore said:

When virtual worlds are discussed we rarely see Second Life mentioned now because it's considered a failure.

It is not that SL is considered a failure. It is that it is considered obsolete. It hasn't been updated in any form of relevance to the modern person and that is the issue. LL have refused to update the things they need to and concentrated on things 'they' think SL should have. They need to LISTEN to their userbase that doesn't just consist of those that post on JIRA or go to inworld meetings.

Second Life has the barebones of what it needs to be like the oasis from Ready Player One but requires a lot of updates to make it similar. LL just dont understand what they need to do to do this however. Their world already exists, no other metaverse does. Their world already has dynamic streaming of content well before game streaming had even come to be (i.e. 2019). This is why Sansar failed, they produced a downloadable region system as opposed to expanding on their dynamic streaming system SL uses. They have the upper hand and always have they just need to see that and change to make SL seem like a new metaverse.

- Chat needs modern features that people expect like emojis, gifs etc. SL chat should resemble Discord in both chat and voice. No ifs or buts and who cares what their 'existing' userbase thinks. It is what any new person and many existing users expect for a chat system.

- Consoles are a thing and LL cant ignore this anymore, they are not going away and other metaverse's will use them (like roblox does) but the engine of SL needs to change to allow for this. SL needs to be on PC, PS4, Xbox, etc. Once again no ifs or buts. They are missing out on a massive demographic. In 2018 there were over 160million people in the USA alone that owned a console.

- Even in the oasis (what people want the metaverse to be) the world wasn't a continuation of all other words it did use separate 'spaces' similar to how SL's private regions are. The difference is that those spaces were not restricted by one region with a border crossing but acted more like an indefinitely extending region as a person or company needed. Do you think Facebook or any other company looking at the metaverse wants to restrict a world to a small space?

Allowing a region to not be restricted to a 256x256 size but being able to expand to hundreds of kilometres (like Minecraft), if needed, to create worlds (mainland's) within a world is the only solution and one that will make Second Life stand out from the rest. It is a shame LL dont concentrate on making this happen as being in the cloud it should be possible for a world to not be restricted by 256x256. If complex content is the issue add a scaler like Unreal5 that complex mesh and textures are downgraded to allow for no performance impact on the end user (of which would also make it easier to be on consoles).

- As far as the map goes, why does it not use a 3D virtual space as opposed to its current 2D form. Make the map interactive. There is no need to have it show the region as a square it is boring, bland and pointless. Make it something like this: Interactive Solar System Tour | 3D Model of the Solar System (nineplanets.org) . i.e. make each region appear as a world that you can then fly through space and click the world you want to go to which then opens up the region info and a minimap similar to what happens when you click a planet in the above linked.

Interactive systems like changing the map to the above linked style is what will make people come into SL and think "wow this is so cool". It would look like a true modern metaverse as it seems that way just by the map. Make it look like Second Life is part of another galaxy outside of RL. Imagine new users being able to explore second life dynamically (via a 3D map) by new planets, constellations etc. You advertise your 'region' by its world name and constellation grouping.

- For anything like a subscriptions, the group join fee could be modified to make it so that you can pay a monthly subscription so that games based on subscription etc can be made. People could support your sim by a subscription method rather than a donation.

- I also still dont understand why LL haven't introduced a rental system themselves. Why cant they just modify the group land system so that if you are in a group you can use the group land system to rent parcels (rather than just donate land) to other group members.

- It also needs a better inworld creation system, land editing tools, paintable textures, updated coding to C+ or # rather than LSL etc.

SL is 'boring' to new users because it still operates like an internet browser from the noughties. It needs systems that make SL interactive, fresh, modern and different to any other platform out their. It needs to be the metaverse and it can. It just needs, like I and others have been saying for years, for LL to think outside the box to make it unique and relevant again.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Chastity77]

On 7/27/2021 at 12:44 PM, Doris Johnsky said:

Zuck and FB can kiss my

I agree totally!

 

[Doris Johnsky]

On 7/27/2021 at 1:52 PM, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

There's a move in Netflix called The Social Dilemma that should checked out.  It talks about the sneaky ways FB uses to keep people on it's platform. I really hope the governments or something can get those big tech under control.

They didn't keep my RL persona. I quit.  I have a FB for my ava but I rarely go there. I'll drop it too.  

[Doris Johnsky]

8 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

It is not that SL is considered a failure. It is that it is considered obsolete. It hasn't been updated in any form of relevance to the modern person and that is the issue. LL have refused to update the things they need to and concentrated on things 'they' think SL should have. They need to LISTEN to their userbase that doesn't just consist of those that post on JIRA or go to inworld meetings.

 

Rather than quote your dissertation, I just put in your first line. 

First of all most FNGs think SL is a  "game".  Like Call of Duty, HALO, or Fortnite.

It is not.  It is filled with real people behind the keyboards who make friends, have jobs, form relationships.  FNGs who approached SL as a "game" are going to be bored and won't last long. No one cares. Many FNGs think SL is all about pixel sex, which you don't get in normal gameplay. Especially males. Smart ones understand the complexities of SL and LEARN. 

I don't think consoles with controllers make SL any better than it is.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 7/29/2021 at 7:47 AM, Mr Amore said:

When virtual worlds are discussed we rarely see Second Life mentioned now because it's considered a failure.

And you may protest a steady performance of 40,000 concurrent users, a respectable figure for any game. And that is the issue, this number hasn't grown in over a decade.

 

Meanwhile Roblox, which is almost as old as SL, measures its concurrent users in the millions. The game was largely promoted by its demographic, mostly children play it and introduce others to Roblox in their schools. But their support for creators, building tools and ease of deploying content in the world make SL look prehistoric by comparison.

Disclaimer: I've never installed Roblox and have only seen their building environment from youtbube videos, maybe there are glaring issues I'm not aware of yet it's clearly working for their creators. Meanwhile, SL hasn't had a functional beta grid since last year because that's how deeply LL values its creators.

 

Going forwards, here's an excerpt from a recent BBC article https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57942909

 

It really is the evolution of the virtual world, where the host is mining every little detail. The place an avatar faces, the object its focused onto, every word written, every surface touched, all of it permanently associated with a real identity. This marks the transition of the Internet into a new era of creepy.

I'm failing to understand how something that is literally made up of building blocks can make SL look "prehistoric". 

[Drayke Newall]

2 hours ago, Doris Johnsky said:

First of all most FNGs think SL is a  "game".  Like Call of Duty, HALO, or Fortnite.

I have no idea what you mean by FNG's. So cant comment on that but as to the rest of your dribble...

2 hours ago, Doris Johnsky said:

It is not.  It is filled with real people behind the keyboards who make friends, have jobs, form relationships. FNGs who approached SL as a "game" are going to be bored and won't last long. No one cares.

I get so sick of people saying Second Life isn't a game in somehow thinking that justifies people not sticking around in Second Life. It is not a justification it is a cop-out. You and others (including LL) say it is not a game doesn't make it so. Other than specific misguided users (and LL) in Second Life only - with a chip on their shoulder, it will always be defined by 99.9% of the world population as a game - a sandbox game.

For comparison, Gary's Mod released in 2006 is a sandbox game. It is classified as a game and no one would call it other wise. It has no objectives, no manufactured conflict and is an open-ended experience (all of the reasons LL listed in 2007 as why SL isn't a game). You just build in the game and do things in the game with those builds just like Second Life. You can then have people explore or play in your creation, interact with it etc. It is also similar to Sansar which LL also went to great lengths to try and say wasn't a game.

Please explain why Second Life which acts EXACTLY (can actually do far more in Gary's Mod) like Gary's Mod is not a game yet Gary's Mod is? 🙄 Gary's Mod even has almost the same daily concurrency as Second Life and before COVID was greater than SL numbers.

You will obviously disagree and bring up all kinds of reasons why but, it is all irrelevant to the discussion. People do not stick around because SL isn't a game or because it has no objective. They dont stick around because it has the most complicated starting (onboarding) experience known to mankind, it lags like crazy at graphic settings that are on by default in other games/platforms/virtual worlds etc, it has a complex body system, it costs to much money to get a region/clothes/body etc. It is also true that they leave because they are bored but then so do regular users.

I am a regular, been around for 18 years, but I get bored of SL too and stop playing for months or a year. Then again, I also joined Second Life when it was FAR less complex to learn and FAR more things to do inworld so I stayed because it was easy to learn and more to do.

2 hours ago, Doris Johnsky said:

Many FNGs think SL is all about pixel sex, which you don't get in normal gameplay. Especially males. Smart ones understand the complexities of SL and LEARN. 

If you think "normal gameplay" in Second Life is not adult content related then you have been misguided. Sex and adult content is the largest component in Second Life. Remove the Brothel of the Internet's (Second Life) adult content (pixel sex) and I would give Second Life all of 1 year before it closes due to a massive decrease in both revenue for LL and users leaving.

As to the learning. Well perhaps if Linden Lab actually made a better onboarding experience or improve on optimisation or be able to turn on shadows without dropping 30fps or create new linden water that doesn't drop your framerate by 80fps and make it so people dont lag, people may actually stay to learn. Just like the things many users on this forum have been asking them to do for years.

2 hours ago, Doris Johnsky said:

I don't think consoles with controllers make SL any better than it is.

Did I say that consoles with controllers will make SL better than it is? No. I said it would allow SL to be populated by more people.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Doris Johnsky]

28 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

I have no idea what you mean by FNG's. So cant comment on that but as to the rest of your dribble...

 

FNG=****ing New Guy   I like it better than noob or newbie

 

It is hardly "dribble"   It is based on 11 years+ of being in SL.  Get over yourself, youngster.   

Just because your under 30 and a massive "gamer" doesn't make you smarter. 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Doris Johnsky

[Prokofy Neva]

11 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

It is not that SL is considered a failure. It is that it is considered obsolete. It hasn't been updated in any form of relevance to the modern person and that is the issue. LL have refused to update the things they need to and concentrated on things 'they' think SL should have. They need to LISTEN to their userbase that doesn't just consist of those that post on JIRA or go to inworld meetings.

Second Life has the barebones of what it needs to be like the oasis from Ready Player One but requires a lot of updates to make it similar. LL just dont understand what they need to do to do this however. Their world already exists, no other metaverse does. Their world already has dynamic streaming of content well before game streaming had even come to be (i.e. 2019). This is why Sansar failed, they produced a downloadable region system as opposed to expanding on their dynamic streaming system SL uses. They have the upper hand and always have they just need to see that and change to make SL seem like a new metaverse.

- Chat needs modern features that people expect like emojis, gifs etc. SL chat should resemble Discord in both chat and voice. No ifs or buts and who cares what their 'existing' userbase thinks. It is what any new person and many existing users expect for a chat system.

- Consoles are a thing and LL cant ignore this anymore, they are not going away and other metaverse's will use them (like roblox does) but the engine of SL needs to change to allow for this. SL needs to be on PC, PS4, Xbox, etc. Once again no ifs or buts. They are missing out on a massive demographic. In 2018 there were over 160million people in the USA alone that owned a console.

- Even in the oasis (what people want the metaverse to be) the world wasn't a continuation of all other words it did use separate 'spaces' similar to how SL's private regions are. The difference is that those spaces were not restricted by one region with a border crossing but acted more like an indefinitely extending region as a person or company needed. Do you think Facebook or any other company looking at the metaverse wants to restrict a world to a small space?

Allowing a region to not be restricted to a 256x256 size but being able to expand to hundreds of kilometres (like Minecraft), if needed, to create worlds (mainland's) within a world is the only solution and one that will make Second Life stand out from the rest. It is a shame LL dont concentrate on making this happen as being in the cloud it should be possible for a world to not be restricted by 256x256. If complex content is the issue add a scaler like Unreal5 that complex mesh and textures are downgraded to allow for no performance impact on the end user (of which would also make it easier to be on consoles).

- As far as the map goes, why does it not use a 3D virtual space as opposed to its current 2D form. Make the map interactive. There is no need to have it show the region as a square it is boring, bland and pointless. Make it something like this: Interactive Solar System Tour | 3D Model of the Solar System (nineplanets.org) . i.e. make each region appear as a world that you can then fly through space and click the world you want to go to which then opens up the region info and a minimap similar to what happens when you click a planet in the above linked.

Interactive systems like changing the map to the above linked style is what will make people come into SL and think "wow this is so cool". It would look like a true modern metaverse as it seems that way just by the map. Make it look like Second Life is part of another galaxy outside of RL. Imagine new users being able to explore second life dynamically (via a 3D map) by new planets, constellations etc. You advertise your 'region' by its world name and constellation grouping.

- For anything like a subscriptions, the group join fee could be modified to make it so that you can pay a monthly subscription so that games based on subscription etc can be made. People could support your sim by a subscription method rather than a donation.

- I also still dont understand why LL haven't introduced a rental system themselves. Why cant they just modify the group land system so that if you are in a group you can use the group land system to rent parcels (rather than just donate land) to other group members.

- It also needs a better inworld creation system, land editing tools, paintable textures, updated coding to C+ or # rather than LSL etc.

SL is 'boring' to new users because it still operates like an internet browser from the noughties. It needs systems that make SL interactive, fresh, modern and different to any other platform out their. It needs to be the metaverse and it can. It just needs, like I and others have been saying for years, for LL to think outside the box to make it unique and relevant again.

I realize this is your hobby horse and you go on beating it as I do mine (with points like they should bring back resident advertising at welcome areas), but you continue to be exasperated with the Lindens not doing what you want, which you think is eminently reasonable, whereas I can grasp that the Lindens have no real essential need to help the world economy; they need to help their own economy, first and foremost, and something like resident ads just seems like a bother, with more content to moderate. So while I think they are missing revenue themselves, too, at the end of the day, and should put this back and understand that it will work for them and us, I realize that I simply need to walk around this particular robot. Maybe you need another 25 years of life experience or 10 years of SL experience to realize people won't do what you want, life goes on.

Then there's this: I don't know of anybody clamouring for emojis. They can go do them on Messenger or Whatsup or Twitter; I think they are more for young people, but they are not vital for SL, which is more a middle aged world.

Same for consoles -- it's not a game, you don't need to be a first-person shooter, which is the main purpose for joysticks I gather, so it's pointless, it adds nothing to SL.

Facebook will have to pay for the same Amazon or its own servers as LL or any other company; nothing magic here. It costs money, it can't be infinite. So you can imagine how they will do things bigger and better but I actually think the sheer massive scale of it means it will have to be rather simplified and dull, the way Google's Lively was.

Making a 3D map sounds like a lot of intensive programming and server cost and there is no demonstrable need for it. Google doesn't make Street View available everywhere, in part because not every country or locality lets them in. But Google's Streetview is on demand, they don't need to keep it up 24/7 as a contiguous actual virtual space and PS you can't interact with others in it. If they don't do this -- turn Streetview into a virtual world with our ability to fly around and chat with each other, which I'd love for them to do --  with their vast resources and programmers, then a little company in SL can't. 

People don't like subscriptions, they keep recurring. It's hard to get people to sign up for them in all media.

No one needs the Lindens to get themselves into the rentals business, which would no doubt prompt them to take a percentage of the transaction as they do on the Mainland. Don't put ideas into their heads. If they started up with that, droves of people would simply go out of business. And by definition, rentals are a resident-to-resident transaction and LL notes in its TOS it does not want to get involved in them. By being in the interface, then they fill up with tickets -- why has this landlord dumped me? Why, I wasn't really overprimming. Why did he suddenly go out of business? My stuff wasn't returned. Etc. Etc. They see the Government/Company in the interface and find them responsible.  I just don't see the Lindens taking this on because -- guess what, they already did! It's called "Bellisseria" where -- guess what! -- you pay a subscription. So the thing you want is done in the way they want, perhaps it just doesn't please you. But it's how they want to do it. Making rental tools in the land or the groups are extra programming chores for devices that already work poorly and already need other things fixed in them like chat and lag and the inability to search on full names. Not realistic.

It's easy to talk about the need for others to "think outside the box" when you need them to spend the money, not yourself. For all kinds of reasons, you don't have "skin in the game," as they say. Those who do -- and I don't mean small time operators like me but dealers with hundreds of islands -- have their own kind of conversation with SL to which we really aren't privvy, their own set of frustrations and wishlists, and believe me, a game console, 3D maps, and other Star Trek like bells and whistles from a Boy's Own Metaverse dream are not on their agenda. Of course, you could try attending office hours especially the "real" ones with actual developers as distinct from Moncierge, and see how far you get with this set of requests.

For example, if I go to the Moles during one of their public talks and push some fantasy of mine, like "Why don't you invite Foo Fighters to SL?" since I envisioned an entire sim build of "The Sky is a Neighbourhood," and I think they are the perfect band for this during the pandemic, and not as outdated as Duran Duran, the Moles could rightly say, but what is the proposition to them, they get 160 people on 4 sims or whatever? In a world with 40,000? They get that many every hour on their Facebook page. And then all of this is OBE'd by FF actually going on tour again. And while I might natter on about how I've already made those 3D glasses like in the "Sky" video and wouldn't it be cool, the Moles actually do builds with things like the Attack of the Show which has a working proposition where it's a fit. It's not a fit for Foo Fighters and even I recognize it. It's always useful to put a complaint or an absurd fantasy to an actual working Linden to see how they step through the reality arguments against it. I highly recommend it. 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Coffee Pancake]

Catznip has an internal prototype with emoji everywhere. LL have expressed interest. Time and RL are the limiting factors.

It's going to be glorious.

[Drayke Newall]

24 minutes ago, Doris Johnsky said:

FNG=****ing New Guy   I like it better than noob or newbie

Well that is just rude.

24 minutes ago, Doris Johnsky said:

It is hardly "dribble"   It is based on 11 years+ of being in SL.  Get over yourself, youngster.   

Wow 11 years. You came just when they were in the process of moving the Adult content to their own region because they wanted to hide SL being seen as a brothel. That went so well for them didn't it. 2010 when they moved it saw them loose 10k in concurrency.

24 minutes ago, Doris Johnsky said:

Just because your under 30 and a massive "gamer" doesn't make you smarter. 

Who said I was under 30 and a massive gamer? I mean I wish I was under 30 but that was a very long time ago. As for being massive gamer, I played one game other than SL this week and that was for a total of 2 hours over 7 days. Such a massive gamer I am.🙄

[Coffee Pancake]

Getting SL onto consoles is a none starter - There are no adult content rated games in those walled gardens.

So while it might be possible to make SL run on a console, it's going to be limited to homebrew status.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 7/29/2021 at 7:47 AM, Mr Amore said:

When virtual worlds are discussed we rarely see Second Life mentioned now because it's considered a failure.

And you may protest a steady performance of 40,000 concurrent users, a respectable figure for any game. And that is the issue, this number hasn't grown in over a decade.

 

Meanwhile Roblox, which is almost as old as SL, measures its concurrent users in the millions. The game was largely promoted by its demographic, mostly children play it and introduce others to Roblox in their schools. But their support for creators, building tools and ease of deploying content in the world make SL look prehistoric by comparison.

Disclaimer: I've never installed Roblox and have only seen their building environment from youtbube videos, maybe there are glaring issues I'm not aware of yet it's clearly working for their creators. Meanwhile, SL hasn't had a functional beta grid since last year because that's how deeply LL values its creators.

 

Going forwards, here's an excerpt from a recent BBC article https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57942909

 

It really is the evolution of the virtual world, where the host is mining every little detail. The place an avatar faces, the object its focused onto, every word written, every surface touched, all of it permanently associated with a real identity. This marks the transition of the Internet into a new era of creepy.

It's helpful in these discussions to actually look at the much ballyhooed Roblox. To anyone in SL, it looks impossibly primitive -- like Fisher Price toys. What the company hypes here is -- guess what, first-person shooters, fighting, and speed chasing. Along the way, you get a glimpse of a chalet or a Japanese torii gate, but they are like backdrops and they, too, are made out of building blocks which gives it a Tinker Toy or Lego effect and therefore a feel that it is very much for kids.

Compare and contrast with SL. Just take this series from Fantasy Faire. It is literally worlds apart. Could you honestly compare the work of Contraption's Wainright and his team, a RL designer, with rich buildings and textures and avatars and accessors in 3D, with these Lego men stumping along in primitive ambulance chases? Of course not, and you don't need to. Roblox fulfills a need for people to have an easy interface to build and interact and therefore it is primitive. SL is not and is -- again, worlds apart. 

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Prokofy Neva

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's helpful in these discussions to actually look at the much ballyhooed Roblox. To anyone in SL, it looks impossibly primitive -- like Fisher Price toys. What the company hypes here is -- guess what, first-person shooters, fighting, and speed chasing. Along the way, you get a glimpse of a chalet or a Japanese torii gate, but they are like backdrops and they, took, are made out of building blocks which gives it a Tinker Toy or Lego effect.

Roblox is kicking ass.

That looks like awesome fun. 

Remember fun ?

[Prokofy Neva]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

Roblox is kicking ass.

That looks like awesome fun. 

Remember fun ?

I have plenty of fun in SL building and decorating and helping my tenants and running my business, a rough RL equivalent, if you will, with a high creative aspect. I can't possibly see "fun" as shooting endlessly at little stick figures on a screen, and myself getting shot at, as I stump past primitive snowscapes. I liked the Sims Online because while it was 2D and limited, it had rich social interactions and building creativity. Roblox arguably has more, but notice they don't show Roblox dolls having book clubs or dating or education, they only show FPS essentially. Real life is not FPS for the most part.

[Drayke Newall]

16 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

 Maybe you need another 25 years of life experience or 10 years of SL experience to realize people won't do what you want, life goes on.

Odd. I and others have for years being saying LL need to create a new default body so that the onboarding experience is better and easier. You on the other hand have been saying for equally as long (just like LL) that this wasn't necessary and would be bad for LL. Yet here we are LL now agreeing that is is an essential thing that needs updating for the onboarding experience.

So much for you saying that ideas that I and others have stated over and over LL now agree with.

16 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Then there's this: I don't know of anybody clamouring for emojis. They can go do them on Messenger or Whatsup or Twitter; I think they are more for young people, but they are not vital for SL, which is more a middle aged world.

Thankfully, Coffee has updated us on this and it seems once again LL disagree with you in that they are interested in getting them in.

I really need to try Catznip viewer, seems to be the more forward thinking viewer as opposed to others.

16 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Same for consoles -- it's not a game, you don't need to be a first-person shooter, which is the main purpose for joysticks I gather, so it's pointless, it adds nothing to SL.

Still hilarious that you think that just because you claim it isn't a game it doesn't belong on consoles. If I recall you were also part of the bandwagon that said a mobile client wasn't needed. Thankfully LL think differently to you. Additionally Patch has stated that they have their developers looking at Roblox (a game) to see what learnings they can take from that to make SL better.

Also since you are oblivious to this, a person can search the internet on console, watch movies on console, listen to music on console, type a document on console, skype with someone on console. But sure keep believing consoles are only for games.

16 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Facebook will have to pay for the same Amazon or its own servers as LL or any other company; nothing magic here. It costs money, it can't be infinite. So you can imagine how they will do things bigger and better but I actually think the sheer massive scale of it means it will have to be rather simplified and dull, the way Google's Lively was.

Linden Lab yearly income from recent leaks about $60 million-80 million.
Facebook income: $86 Billion
I somehow dont think Facebook will have a problem with massive scale.

16 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

People don't like subscriptions, they keep recurring. It's hard to get people to sign up for them in all media.

Right, no one likes subscriptions...

Netflix: 203+ Million subscribers
Final Fantasy XIV game: 20million subscribers
World of Warcraft: approx. 115 million subscribers

[Drayke Newall]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Getting SL onto consoles is a none starter - There are no adult content rated games in those walled gardens.

So while it might be possible to make SL run on a console, it's going to be limited to homebrew status.

It would depend I would think as to what could be done. If for instance LL grow their new mobile client to more than a text chat which I would hope they are thinking of, then they would likewise need to limit it as Apple do not allow adult content on their devices either.

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

 Roblox arguably has more, but notice they don't show Roblox dolls having book clubs or dating or education, they only show FPS essentially. Real life is not FPS for the most part.

Clearly you haven't looked at Roblox at all as, if you had you would stop saying it is only an FPS thing. You remember Second Life's old motto "your world, your imagination". It applies to Roblox as well.

Your book club that you say isn't in Roblox The Official Roblox Book Club - Roblox
Your education you say doesn't exist in Roblox Setting Up A Roblox Classroom
Oh hey look a concert held in Roblox by famous singers like Lady Gaga One World: Together At Home Virtual Concert - Roblox Blog
Cant ever recall Second Life making a deal with Sony Entertainment for Live concerts to be made in world. Here is the deal Roblox made Sony Music, Roblox Establish Partnership

Here is a link showing schools using Minecraft and Roblox for teaching and education during the pandemic... Notice how Second Life isn't mentioned at all Teachers Use Minecraft and Roblox to Educate Kids During Coronavirus Pandemic - Bloomberg

As for your dating thing it also takes place in Roblox. There are numerous hangout worlds and what not.

You need to get past the "Roblox is a game for kids and only shooters and made of blocks" and start to realise the world is treating it like SL back in 2006 where even mega corps like Sony Entertainment are doing things in there that Second Life would only dream of seeing again. Roblox has evolved well beyond what you and others seem to think it is (was).

:EDIT:

As to your video comparison of sl and Roblox, Roblox has far superior graphics to sl and is not blocky at all. Some people just build there world in that style in Roblox similar to how some people build cartoony style in sl. That sl video also has so much lag that even the camera fly through was lagging. Shows just how subpar sl is to modern creation platforms. Also Roblox has stated that realistic avatars will be coming and in concerts has even provided realistic avatars to music artists.

0.7 and 0.28 in the Roblox vid you posted and other times show graphic on par if not better than sl and not blocky at all as they are created mesh made in programs outside of Roblox and imported just like sl. So once again you have no clue what you are talking about.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[rasterscan]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's helpful in these discussions to actually look at the much ballyhooed Roblox. To anyone in SL, it looks impossibly primitive -- like Fisher Price toys. What the company hypes here is -- guess what, first-person shooters, fighting, and speed chasing. Along the way, you get a glimpse of a chalet or a Japanese torii gate, but they are like backdrops and they, too, are made out of building blocks which gives it a Tinker Toy or Lego effect and therefore a feel that it is very much for kids.

Compare and contrast with SL. Just take this series from Fantasy Faire. It is literally worlds apart. Could you honestly compare the work of Contraption's Wainright and his team, a RL designer, with rich buildings and textures and avatars and accessors in 3D, with these Lego men stumping along in primitive ambulance chases? Of course not, and you don't need to. Roblox fulfills a need for people to have an easy interface to build and interact and therefore it is primitive. SL is not and is -- again, worlds apart. 

 

Wow. Looks like the latter is for 8 year olds and the former for 80 year olds

[Mr Amore]

On 7/30/2021 at 1:49 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

Notable (and entirely false) reasons for SL's lack of growth include;

• poor graphics (it's our fault)
• poor performance (it's our / the programmers fault)
• adult content (those damn perverts)
• it's economy (how can LL make more money if they keep giving it us!)
• absence of buzzwords (blockchains, VR, etc)
• marketing (but .. no one will join if LL don't advertise)
• complexity & viewer UI (SL is hard and people are feeble / busy)
• new user experience (worse than feeble? .. )
• and others.

 

 

These are real issues in need of addressing among others. Growth will come from new residents entering the game, but in that first hour they need an incentive to stay and not be confounded by the disaster that is the V3 UI. When I first installed SL around 2006, it was a smooth experience with an intuitive UI.

Recently I installed the official viewer again... and I was confused. The search wasn't working(couldn't find my own avatars), the UI was too busy with icons everywhere, the friend's panel is an absolute nightmare to navigate. LL doesn't need to reinvent the interface, they just need to restore it to V1, back when it just worked.

New residents aren't reaching the point of discovering TPVs, they're installing the official viewer... and uninstalling it after ten minutes of nausea.

Another detriment is the cost of entry, creating an avatar now is upwards of $100 and that's just to get started. If LL were to create a couple of BoM enabled mesh bodies, like the Ruth 2.0, it's an incentive for new residents. The developer kits for these bodies would be available for all and introduce even more residents to rigging attachments.

 

I don't fault LL for attempting a new project, Sansar recognized SL's limitations. Their mistake was betting on VR, over mobile. When any analyst could have told them, VR will continue to be a niche product until the 2030s when battery and hardware improvements will make headsets viable for all. Meanwhile, mobile devices are in every home. IMVU and Roblox targeted mobile users and they're reaping the benefits.

 

SL's real advantage is the talent of its creators, Second Life's avatars are easily the most diverse of any game. When the new 'metaverses' launch, they will be optimized for mobile and VR too, so SL will hold its aesthetic lead for years to come. But eventually there will be talent-drain of creators from SL to more profitable platforms. That alone should be LLs main concern because the creators keep this game afloat. When they're gone, it sinks.

 

 

[Mr Amore]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's helpful in these discussions to actually look at the much ballyhooed Roblox. To anyone in SL, it looks impossibly primitive -- like Fisher Price toys. What the company hypes here is -- guess what, first-person shooters, fighting, and speed chasing. Along the way, you get a glimpse of a chalet or a Japanese torii gate, but they are like backdrops and they, took, are made out of building blocks which gives it a Tinker Toy or Lego effect.

Compare and contrast with SL. Just take this series from Fantasy Faire. It is literally worlds apart.

That Fantasy Faire video appeared to be stuttering from performance issues, but it's the interpolation from the camera's path. And that random observation aside...

I'm by no means lamenting the graphical superiority of Roblox over SL! It's not a game I'm interested in playing.

However, search for Roblox Studio on youtube for a look at their environment creation tools. That's something I would like for SL, or anything similar to it. Core (by Manticore) have developed a similar studio for their system.

 

These are aimed at games, but we could use them to create environments in SL too. The trouble with SL is, we tend to think of our builds as permanent spaces, when they could be temporary scenes-on-demand.

 

A look at Roblox Studio:

 

And a second link, laughably sponsored by GameMaker Studio.

The TLDR is, Roblox are gouging 75% from their game developers, who take home just 25% of their earnings. It is undeniably obscene.

 

[animats]

14 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

It hasn't been updated in any form of relevance to the modern person and that is the issue.

Yes. I was just checking out Decentraland. Beards are mandatory for male avatars. You can pick a beard style, but "none" is not an option. That's keeping up with the times! But Decentraland, despite all the press coverage, only has 200-300 concurrent users. Decentraland is a sideshow. It's Roblox that's the real threat to SL.

The things to realize about Roblox is that 1) their CEO wants to build a better metaverse, 2) they've done very well with the one they have, with 1.8 million concurrent users, and 3) they have a market cap of $43 billion dollars.