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Ryann Adder

How would you react to finding out your partner is not really the sex of their avatar?

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:


Dillon Levenque wrote:


To Point 3:

What you either don't see or won't acknowledge about the majority of the posters you disagree with (include me in that lot, by the way) is that virtually none of them said anything about being entitled. Most have said that LYING about one's RL with intent to gain in something as emotionally involved as an SL relationship can be is wrong. It's wrong in RL, too.

I see it very well, but because you lot have nothing but highly emotive "but I want it" arguments in response, you don't grasp the much simpler point I'm making. You are not entitled to this information. (Yes, you can ask. No, you are not entitled.) Since you are not entitled to it, nobody is obliged to be honest with you about it.

 

 

 

You "see it very well" and continue on as if I'd not written a word. I didn't say I was entitled. Not many others have said that, either outright or indirectly. I say lying is wrong*. You disagree, clearly: "nobody is obliged to be honest with you". That tells me all I really need to know.

*In general. I'm familiar with cases in which it was done with good intent and with good results.

I'm done now.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

You "see it very well" and continue on as if I'd not written a word.


Because nothing you said changed anything. Your facile claim that 'lying is wrong' is just another way of saying 'lying to me is wrong when I'm asking for information to which I have no claim', ie 'lying to me is wrong because I am ENTITLED either to an honest answer or a flat refusal to reply at all'.

And I repeat: when you ask for information to which you have no right, the person you are asking has a choice. They may refuse to answer, answer honestly, or answer dishonestly. That's their right, because it's their information and you have no right to it.

Not even when you run the risk of getting pissed off.

If you are looking only for pixel sex and long talks in IM, and that's what you get, everything else you are given is a privilege and not a right.

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I think I understand what Elisheva is saying. 

Not everyone who comes into SL and chooses to play a avatar of a different gender is a sociopath, liar or only out to manipulate people for their own gain. Sure, there are sociopaths, liars and manipulators in SL, but I sincerely doubt it's just the gender benders. I think we all realize that and it's one thing everyone in this thread can agree on. There are plenty of jerks in SL and RL gender has nothing to do with it. I guarantee there are an equal number of people playing the same gender as their RL one and lying about details of their real lives as there are gender benders doing it. Lying is not strictly owned by the gender benders.

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I wanted to add something else. Someone made that analogy that if someone represented a painting as something it was really not, and sold it as such, then that would be fraud and a liable offense in real life. I understand the analogy, but I think it's flawed. In SL I am not selling you the RL me. I am selling you an avatar. An avatar with my soul, my feelings and my personality. My RL is not for sale.

I am not sure why people would make up a complete false RL stories/backgrounds to go along with their SL indentity, especially if they don't have to. I don't believe most gender benders do that. I think it's just easier to believe that if they "lied" about one thing, they have lied about it all, which is totally understandable.

With all this said, I don't think people who lie about their RL gender set out to lie. I believe what happens is they form very real connections with someone, and when it comes time to tell the truth, it doesn't come down to a decision of whether to lie or not, but rather whether to risk losing the relationship they have come to depend on or not. That might be selfish, but at least it's the truth.

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Thorn Garsdale wrote:

With all this said, I don't think people who lie about their RL gender set out to lie. I believe what happens is they form very real connections with someone, and when it comes time to tell the truth, it doesn't come down to a decision of whether to lie or not, but rather whether to risk losing the relationship they have come to depend on or not. That might be selfish, but at least it's the truth.

 

That was very well said, and makes a lot of sense. I like the way you think. I see this was only your second post; I hope you don't stop at two.

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Thorn Garsdale wrote:

I wanted to add something else. Someone made that analogy that if someone represented a painting as something it was really not, and sold it as such, then that would be fraud and a liable offense in real life. I understand the analogy, but I think it's flawed. In SL I am not selling you the RL me. I am selling you an avatar. An avatar with my soul, my feelings and my personality. My RL is not for sale.

I am not sure why people would make up a complete false RL stories/backgrounds to go along with their SL indentity, especially if they don't have to. I don't believe most gender benders do that. I think it's just easier to believe that if they "lied" about one thing, they have lied about it all, which is totally understandable.

With all this said, I don't think people who lie about their RL gender set out to lie. I believe what happens is they form very real connections with someone, and when it comes time to tell the truth, it doesn't come down to a decision of whether to lie or not, but rather whether to risk losing the relationship they have come to depend on or not. That might be selfish, but at least it's the truth.

Funny this worked when you said it. This is exactly how I've felt and what I've tried to put across for as long as this topic has presented itself in my years of being here and yet I can't even get people to admit that there could possibly be a shade of gray in this purported black and white area. Not even one shade of gray admitted to without hand wringing, teeth gritting difficulty.

It's vindicating for me to know that there is at least one other person who refuses to deal in false dilemmas and can actually fight through Crying Game flashbacks when discussing this topic. Thank you from me and for me, and for my first SL love. Who if nothing else, is a man who showed me that gray in some things can be as beautiful a color as any other if given half a chance and looked at with perspective and self awareness. :matte-motes-smitten:

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It did happened to me in another game I also play. To me is simple. Before I get a long term relationship I talk to person, getting to know. If the person tells me he is a man and then I find he is a woman-there is no exusse at all.

 

Part of the game is making friends, relationship. You can either romance with anything that moves or building relationships. I am the one intend to build relationship so if in a process of having nice trustfull relationship I found that man behing avatar is woman-kinda puts me of to do a gay sex with woman.

I do not mean we need to talk about real life, no way but at least the sex of avatars should be respected. My avatar is design to love man, which is hard to do with a woman behind the other character.

 

So in total-If I found the male avatar is a woman behind-never be able to be sexually or romanticly close. 

 

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Because I come to SL basically as myself I will feel betrayed and want to know why not just be honest upfront. if i knew upfront i might still spend time with them and have fun, but find out later makes you feel your been taken for a fooland "used".

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I think you just answered your own question. People don't tell because if they do tell you upfront then you "might" still spend time with them; which means you might not. People don't get accepted at face value in RL, why would they want to not be treated at face value in their second?

My advice is that if it means that much to you, then don't put the burden of being honest on everyone else. Be honest with yourself and them and say upfront you are in SL as yourself and it matters to you who or what the person is behind the avie. Tell them you are interested in real life details. Second Life is a platform where people can come and live any existence they choose. That is it's beauty and evidently it's curse. People who come into a virtual reality expecting avatars to be a close representation of their real life owners are the ones deviating from the platform's intentions. Trust me, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't share my views anymore than you want to be with someone who doesn't share yours.

I don't want to see anyone hurt by my hands, but you can hurt someone as well, by refusing to accept them as they come. Communication on both side is the key.

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I accept people as they present themselves in SL, whatever way that might be, as long as I don't feel like they're being maliciously dishonest.  In SL, I'm younger and hotter than I am in RL, but otherwise I'm just who I am -- sometimes in ways that aren't possible in RL due to the limitations of physical reality. (No, in RL I can't dance like Ginger Rogers, nor can I spend an entire weekend hogtied and dangling from a hook -- but in SL I can, so why not?)  If someone asks me a direct question about my RL, I'll tell them the truth.  I have no reason to lie.  If my age or my weight or my real hair color or what I do for a living really matters to them, I might as well tell them and get it over with.

What matters to me is people's intent.  If who and what they appear to be in SL is a legitimate facet of their RL identity, or even just a character they enjoy playing and are willing to commit a significant amount of time to, that's fine.  If they're running five alts of varying gender, species, and sexual preference, all of whom are in "monogamous" relationships with people who have no idea about the others, I can feel reasonably certain their intentions are not entirely benevolent.

If I found out someone I was dating in SL was a woman in RL, I'd want to know why they didn't tell me up front.  "Because I believed that Our Love would transcend sexual preference and you'd give up men to come live with me in my radical lesbian man-hating commune" would not be a good answer (not that I have anything against man-hating lesbians; I just don't happen to be one).  "Because I prefer to play a straight male avatar in SL" would be OK -- although really, I'd prefer they either told me up front or never let me find out the truth.

On the other hand, if you're just experimenting, trying on the other sex for size, I do think it's unfair to get involved in a serious relationship with someone who doesn't know the truth.  Even if you have no intention for the relationship to go RL, our feelings are 100% real, and people can get hurt pretty badly.  If you're not committed to being the person as whom you present yourself in SL, keep things casual... and at the first sign that they're getting serious, tell the truth and take the consequences.  Some people won't care; other people will be seriously freaked out, and whichever reaction you get, you're just going to have to accept it.

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my RL partner is also my SL partner ..we haven't actually partnered in sl yet..we're going to do it after the RL wedding next month =)

if he ever gets his butt online to do it..

he only ever gets on when he is working out of town..it's not really something he is too into unless he is away..

 

if someone were to try to fool me nowdays i wouldn't really care..that is if i were looking for an online relationship to have in sl..just don't ever tell me..i wouldn't want what we have wrecked..because the second you tell me then i'll just see that from then on out..

i mean i don't care what people rp..but they don't have to worry about hurting my feelings  in here..it will just hurt  the immersion is all..

i don't get that lost in things anymore i guess..

it doesn't matter if i have figured out that someone is not what they say they are..it's that the second it is confirmed  then it is fact i guess is all i am saying.. it just makes it harder to imagine than before ..bleh..does this even make sense? lol

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Doesn't matter to me.. I'm pan-sexual meaning i don't see male or female.. as long as they treat me with the same respect as i showed than

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