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How would you react to finding out your partner is not really the sex of their avatar?


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Dana Hickman wrote:


Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

You are not a passive victim of fate if you log into a virtual environment and then expect everyone to give up their rl information to you just because you think you have a right not to be pissed off.

I never suggested anything of the sort.

"To help ensure the chances of being lied to and played like a used violin are as low as can be reasonably expected under such conditions? Absolutely! No question about it. Just because YOU don't like the price to continue riding that ride doesn't mean that what they ask is so universally unacceptable to everyone. It matters not if you don't agree with the asking." - Dana Hickman, about 20 minutes or so ago.

 


Dana Hickman wrote:

So you still maintain that it's cool to lie and make up stuff instead of just denying the request for whatever reason?

I certainly do. As I've said numerous times, nobody has the right to this information, and it is often impossible to refuse the request without implicating oneself, so saying anything you like about it is absolutely fine and dandy. LL agrees with me.

 

So what should I tell the teenager?

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

You're telling me people should succumb to emotional blackmail and pass out their real life information to people on the internet in the name of security???

 

Id like to know... how much emotional investment do you think someone has in a relationship when they've been lying though their teeth with a fake personna, fake RL gender, fake RL history, and fake RL stories? The answer is telling because there can be no "emotional blackmail" when real emotions aren't on the line. No, I'd pretty much guarantee that if someone goes to those lengths to continue playing a lying game with someone that there isn't much attachment there. I'd also pretty much guarantee that if there's any feelings at all, they're either for their precious "character", or the situation they lied that character into... not the other person. Just like you say to look to RL for RL stuff, I'd have to say back that these kind of users need to look to RP sims for their precious fantasy fulfillment.

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Dana Hickman wrote:

Id like to know... how much emotional investment do you think someone has in a relationship when they've been lying though their teeth with a fake personna, fake RL gender, fake RL history, and fake RL stories? The answer is telling because there can be no "emotional blackmail" when real emotions aren't on the line. No, I'd pretty much guarantee that if someone goes to those lengths to continue playing a lying game with someone that there isn't much attachment there. I'd also pretty much guarantee that if there's any feelings at all, they're either for their precious "character", or the situation they lied that character into... not the other person. Just like you say to look to RL for RL stuff, I'd have to say back that these kind of users need to look to RP sims for their precious fantasy fulfillment.

So now you also know exactly what's going on in the minds of scores of people you've never met, and, conveniently, it all falls in line with your wishes. Is there anything you CAN'T do?

So what should I tell the teenager?

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

I certainly do. As I've said numerous times, nobody has the right to this information, and it is often impossible to refuse the request without implicating oneself, so saying anything you like about it is absolutely fine and dandy. LL agrees with me.

 

So what should I tell the teenager?

 

If you're getting implicated by not answering then you're getting asked by the wrong kind of person, genius! omg...

get the phone, NASA's calling about that job you wanted... wow.

 

Your quote of me wasn't any sort of reply at all..  In there it says nothing about victims or expectations or getting pissed off when RL info is refused. What it DOES say is that it's perfectly acceptable to ask, to help lower the risk or weed out the liars. It also states that YOU, as the one being asked, don't have the right to be pissed off by being asked. Like I said, your ruined roleplay means nothing when something tangible is on the line, and saying it's about the RL info that you're not forced to divulge is just a cover.

 

And what's with this teenager fetish? I answered that like a friggin hour ago! Are you that knee-jerk that you can't be bothered to read a whole reply before retort?

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Dana Hickman wrote:

 

If you getting implicated by not answering then you're getting asked by the wrong kind of person, genius! omg...


So if I'm in a male av, and someone asks me if I'm an rl man, and I decline to answer, they won't draw any conclusions from that?

 


Dana Hickman wrote:

Your quote of me wasn't any sort of reply at all..  In there it says nothing about victims or expectations or getting pissed off when RL info is refused.


Of course it was. It was a whiny moan from you with a lot of highly emotive and utterly worthless rubbish about "being played like a used violin", clearly implying that such people are passive victims. They're not. They're people who went into a virtual world knowing the risks and knowing they had no real right to personal data, and didn't get exactly what they wanted in real life.
Dana Hickman wrote:your ruined roleplay means nothing when something tangible is on the line, and saying it's about the RL info that you're not forced to divulge is just a cover.

The whole point is that this is not a tangible world, so if you want tangible information, this is not where you should look. You have NO RIGHT to people's rl information for your own emotional protection.


Dana Hickman wrote:

And what's with this teenager fetish? I answered that like a friggin hour ago! Are you that knee-jerk that you can't be bothered to read a whole reply before retort?

I've just had another look through, and I don't see any response to it. Kindly link me to it, or repeat. What should I tell her?

 

 

 

 

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:


Dana Hickman wrote:

Id like to know... how much emotional investment do you think someone has in a relationship when they've been lying though their teeth with a fake personna, fake RL gender, fake RL history, and fake RL stories? The answer is telling because there can be no "emotional blackmail" when real emotions aren't on the line. No, I'd pretty much guarantee that if someone goes to those lengths to continue playing a lying game with someone that there isn't much attachment there. I'd also pretty much guarantee that if there's any feelings at all, they're either for their precious "character", or the situation they lied that character into... not the other person. Just like you say to look to RL for RL stuff, I'd have to say back that these kind of users need to look to RP sims for their precious fantasy fulfillment.

So now you also know exactly what's going on in the minds of scores of people you've never met, and, conveniently, it all falls in line with your wishes. Is there anything you CAN'T do?

 

Shall I point out how poor of a dodge attempt that was? Or maybe I'll just hound you with inane requests for an answer that was already posted to try and sound like I came up with something you had no answer for?

Indeed, very telling.... but not my concern. My original reply stands on it's own merit and doesn't need to be agreed with. My mistake was trying to clarify.

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Dana Hickman wrote:


Elisheva Sopwith wrote:


Dana Hickman wrote:

Id like to know... how much emotional investment do you think someone has in a relationship when they've been lying though their teeth with a fake personna, fake RL gender, fake RL history, and fake RL stories? The answer is telling because there can be no "emotional blackmail" when real emotions aren't on the line. No, I'd pretty much guarantee that if someone goes to those lengths to continue playing a lying game with someone that there isn't much attachment there. I'd also pretty much guarantee that if there's any feelings at all, they're either for their precious "character", or the situation they lied that character into... not the other person. Just like you say to look to RL for RL stuff, I'd have to say back that these kind of users need to look to RP sims for their precious fantasy fulfillment.

So now you also know exactly what's going on in the minds of scores of people you've never met, and, conveniently, it all falls in line with your wishes. Is there anything you CAN'T do?

 

Shall I point out how poor of a dodge attempt that was? 

Please do. I can't for the life of me see how you can know the intimate workings of the minds of countless people you've never met and whose personal lives and contexts are completely unknown to you. Enlighten me.

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"Id like to know... how much emotional investment do you think someone has in a relationship when they've been lying though their teeth with a fake personna, fake RL gender, fake RL history, and fake RL stories? The answer is telling because there can be no "emotional blackmail" when real emotions aren't on the line. No, I'd pretty much guarantee that if someone goes to those lengths to continue playing a lying game with someone that there isn't much attachment there."

Yes.  Another marker for psychopathy.  Those folks don't engage emotionally in relationships, they blame and mock the victim,  they lie to manipulate for personal gain, they show a chilling lack of empathy (again blaming the victim) and  they have a penchant for "stirring the pot"/creating upset because their innerself has a bit of deadness to it.  Not diagnosing any one or pointing to any particular scenerio.  This is all hypothetical here as is the OP.  Just thought I'd share as every viewpoint is valid.  RL and SL sociopaths exist.

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:


Dana Hickman wrote:

 

You're correct, they don't have a right to someone elses info, that's just stoopid... but they do have a right to
ask
for it for their own security.

Their own security??? Is this some kind of joke? You're telling me people should succumb to emotional blackmail and pass out their real life information to people on the internet in the name of security???

 

ROFL! Say what? So someone "asking" you a question is tantamount to "emotional blackmail"? Seriously??

Do you want fries with that? Or is that too much emotional pressure to ask?

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Yes well, exactly.  And that is at the crux of his/her specious argument.  The fallacy that someone is holding a gun, virtual or otherwise, at his or her head, forcing him/her into an intimate "partnership" contract, forcing him/her to lie is laughable at best.

Of course  hiding ones identity (or any one part that doesn't actually disclose ones entire set of: age, name, location, address) is SUPPORTED in SL.  But its not mandatory and its not the overriding rule of law.  There are many many examples where people do not do this.  And yes, sadly they get stung by unethical griefers, we've probably all had this happen.  It happens in RL, too.  But we do take some calculated risks to get on with our lives.

Out of human decency, and we are HUMAN puppet masters in SL - if you come across someone you are interested in partnering with and they ask one or many personal RL questions, you then  know one more thing about them.  Their philosophy of on-line social gaming is perhaps different then yours.  Maybe you think that equates to their being say a racist, or a homophobe or other offensive thing.  That's your cue to cut and run.  You back off from the relationship, because clearly there are incompatibilities here.  Its not a normal or even acceptable thing to consider oneself forced to lie to continue a  partnership with someone who had disclosed differences that are abberant to you.

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

...   That's your cue to cut and run.  You back off from the relationship, because clearly there are incompatibilities here.  Its not a normal or even acceptable thing to consider oneself forced to lie to continue a  partnership with someone who had disclosed differences that are abberant to you.

And here is the exact crux .. differences that go outside your own personal boundaries. Elisheva's whole drama rant here seems to be predicated on the assertion that once in a "Relationship" on SL that you are somehow forced to follow it no matter where it takes you. Shoot! That's not true even in RL .. not even for long-term legally bound couples. Why on earth would it be so imperative to continue a personally abhorrent and intolerable relationship in a place where "escape" is as simple as "See that X in the upper right corner? Click it."

As Dana has tried to point out (but for some reason Elisheva keeps dodging) .. it's about one's own expectations and limits. We really do have the tools here to control our own experiences. In every level of energy too .. from that "X" at the top end all the way down to the simple act of tuning someone out.

If someone is unhappy or not enjoying their SL experience, they need look no further than their own mirror to find both the cause and the fix.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

Why on earth would it be so imperative to continue a personally abhorrent and intolerable relationship in a place where "escape" is as simple as "See that X in the upper right corner? Click it."


Exactly. So why don't people who think they have a right to your rl information because they are attached to you click that lovely little x, and go seek their rl information in rl?

 


Darrius Gothly wrote:

If someone is unhappy or not enjoying their SL experience, they need look no further than their own mirror to find both the cause and the fix.

Exactly. But you lot are insisting that the person who ought to do the leaving is the person being asked to relinquish something that is their perfect right to keep.

 


Darrius Gothly wrote:

As Dana has tried to point out (but for some reason Elisheva keeps dodging) .. it's about one's own expectations and limits. We really do have the tools here to control our own experiences.

Your own "expectations" do not override someone else's right to keep their rl in rl. It's just another way of saying you have a sense of entitlement to someone else's offline life, purely because you want it.

We all agreed to the TOS when we signed up, and we all agreed that people's rl remains private if they want it to. You may like to override that when your personal feelings are in the way, but you didn't sign up to that right, and nor did anyone else.

People who want rl information do indeed have the facility to find out such data. It's called rl. That lovely X button you mentioned is your key to it. On the internet, you have no right to anyone's personal data.

 

 

 

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"Your own "expectations" do not override someone else's right to keep their rl in rl. It's just another way of saying you have a sense of entitlement to someone else's offline life, purely because you want it."

The more I read your postings Elisheva, the more I'm convinced you are battling windmills or "ghosts of SL relationships past".

Asking for RL information before embarking on a partnership (and what may turn out to be an surprisingly emotional virtual attachment, I might add) does not equate to an expectation or ENTITLEMENT to actually get it.  And has been said before.  If you ask, which anyone has a right to do - there's no tos against asking - and the other person declines, then the first person takes their chances  with the relationship or might  in consequence of not getting the information that they feel is important to conduct the relationship, decline.  It their right to do so.

Asking a persons RL sexual orientation (as is the topic in the OP) doesn't disclose much about you, and again its optional. It's a question for most, not a demand.  And if it is expressed as a demand then certainly, once again, you know this is an unreasonable person who you should steer clear of.  And you are free to do so.  

You are free to decline, despite what you claim this doesn't reveal anything about you except your philosophy of on line social media, the person is free to speculate, but its no confirmation of any real life information about you. 

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

The more I read your postings Elisheva, the more I'm convinced you are battling windmills or "ghosts of SL relationships past".

Think whatever you will. But even if that were true, why would it make what I'm saying wrong?

 


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

 

Asking for RL information before embarking on a partnership (and what may turn out to be an surprisingly emotional virtual attachment, I might add) does not equate to an expectation or ENTITLEMENT to actually get it.

Well then. Why, if I'm in a male av and someone asks me if I'm an rl man because they fancy me, can I not reply "Yes. I'm scratching my balls and burping to Match of the Day even as we speak, sweetcheeks"?

You've just admitted nobody is entitled to this rl information, which is exactly what I've been saying all along.

 

 


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

Asking a persons RL sexual orientation (as is the topic in the OP) doesn't disclose much about you

I don't quite follow this. If I ask you for your sexual orientation, obviously that doesn't say anything about me. But it's irrelevant. We don't pick and choose the information we are entitled to receive. We are entitled to none. You may wish to give some out - I've given my rl identity to a few people and even met some of them in rl - but you're under no obligation, no matter how attached they are.

 


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

You are free to decline, despite what you claim this doesn't reveal anything about you

I disagree. I think if I'm in a male av and you ask me if I'm really a man, it incriminates me not to reply. But that's still irrelevant. The point is that since you are not entitled to my rl information, I am not obliged to tell you the truth about it.

I'd like to know your annual salary, please, Nacy. I feel rather attached to you at the moment, and if we're going to continue this discussion, this is information I really feel I have a right to know. I don't want you replying any more if you're not going to tell me your annual salary. If you don't like that, you can just log off.

 

 

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You take your chances with romances, especially in SL. When you engage in romance in SL, you implicitly assume the risk that everything your partner tells you may be a complete and utter fabrication. It's a legal doctrine dating from ancient Roman times, originally known as caveat emptor, i.e., let the buyer beware. In this situation it has evolved to let the lover beware.

Perhaps LL could implement a special service for those seeking RL love, which provides for gender verification in addition to age verification. LL could create another continent and call it Lindra as in Zindra, but with an L from the word lover for those seeking RL love. On Lindra, everyone must first verify through official documentation that their RL gender matchers the gender of their SL avatar before they are allowed access.

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I know of a RL instance where a young woman thought she married a physician.  He left for the hospital every working  day for a year. Something happened and it was revealed that he wasn't a physician at all.  His entire life was a lie.  Another person I know of married a woman only to find out her financial life was in complete shambles, she owed money everywhere, but hid this very well until being married the info came out. 

People in RL and SL are always at risk of being lied to.  SL is just a RL maquarade ball.  People who wouldn't dream of grabbing your ass unmasked will feel freer to do so with their identity hidden.  But elaborate lying to someone you propose to spend significant intimate one on one time with in RL or SL..that's a diffferent discussion as to what motivates a person to go to such lengths to prey on an unsuspecting person. 

I've met tons of wonderful people in SL from all walks of life in SL, gay, bi, transexual, straight, and a-sexual.  So there's someone to float everyone's boat here.  Why would someone, knowing their friend is a gay male who only wants to spend his time with men, want to trick him into being with a straight female for example.  There's something pathological in spending your time in that activity, unless the liar is a teenager, I'll allow a child some allowance for not having the maturity to feel empathy for the other person.

And I don't accept the bullshift that someone is ever forced into a relationship and must lie to protect that aspect of their identity.  The very worst that can happen in revealing ones sex to the person you propose to partner with is the discloser might  - and I can't imagine a single reason for this - later have to create a new avie/alt.  boo-hoo.

The OP is "How would you react....." and every one has a reaction to being lied to.

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All this talk about mics proving you are who you are is silly.  Consider this- a married woman or man has their computer in the same room as the family- Lets just in the family room...

 

So if they were to mic in SL,    what do you think the problem might be?  Do you think someones teenage son would be happy hearing SL sex talk from their Mom to their SL boyfriend?  Duh!

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JamesAir wrote:

The question is not if you are required to tell anything about your real life. You are not. The question is, is telling deliberate lies about rl in order to manipulate a person into a relationship with you who would not be in such a relationship if they knew the truth about you in real life is right or wrong.

It’s wrong for one
obvious
reason. The person is lying to make someone do something they would not ordinarily do.

Yep. I guess it's not obvious to everyone; clearly it is not only unobvious but is even a mistaken attitude to at least one of the people that has posted here. It's obvious to me. It's obvious to you. It's obvious to, I trust, most of the people I associate most closely with here.

 

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JamesAir wrote:

Ok actual hypothetical example for you.

 

Oh boy. Challenge me.

 


JamesAir wrote:

A person, JOE, is straight in real life and like many people, they play their real life sex in second life. They also project their real life sexual orientation in second life.

 

Once again. JOE has chosen, for whatever reason, not to seek out women in real life. Instead he chooses to pursue a digital approximation of sex with animated women. Furthermore, he signs up to TOS accepting he has no right to any of the rl information about the real people with whom he cybers. He seeks a digital experience with digital women, and that's what he gets. He is entitled to no more. The fact that he likes to think of this as "real" is entirely irrelevant, because he knows it isn't, and that's probably why he's doing it. When his rl wife catches him (he probably has one), he will likely pull the "but it's not real" justification to try to excuse what he does.

You have no right to override the TOS and demand other people's rl information just because it gratifies you emotionally. It's no different to the idiots who sign up to the TOS and then think they can void them by posting a disclaimer in their profiles. You have no right to anyone's rl information, and they therefore are under no obligation to provide you with it, and have every right to be untruthful about it if they wish.

JOE has not been "manipulated" into "doing something he wouldn't ordinarily do". Ordinarily, he'd have cyber sex with pixel women, and that's what he's got. It's all he's entitled to. Nobody is tricking him into having rl sex with an rl man.

And in my experience, men and women don't generally do very well acting as something they're not for a long period of time. If you really do fall madly in love with someone who turns out to be an rl man, you might like to reconsider just how hetero you think you are.

What I genuinely can't understand is why you lot seem to think the people prying and demanding rl information on the internet are necessarily the vulnerable ones. I've had many people try to get my rl information, using all these same intellectually dishonest arguments that always boil down to "because I want it for my own personal gratification". These people were predatory, intrusive and highly unreliable. You want to stay safe on the internet? Keep your information to yourself. The person who gives out rl information to spare the feelings of others who have no right to it is far more vulnerable than the person who risks cybering with someone they wouldn't want to have rl sex with.

I'm getting very bored of saying the same thing over and over again. In point form:

1) When you enter sl, you agree to TOS in which you accept you have no right to anyone's rl information, nor they to yours.

2) When you enter sl, you are seeking a digital experience and you have no right to anything further.

3) As you are not entitled to anyone's rl information, they are under no obligation to provide it to you.

4) The vulnerable people are more likely to be those giving out their rl information than those selfish idiots who think they have a right to it.

Now, James. I'm feeling rather emotionally attached to you after this. I want to know how often you bring your rl partner to orgasm in reality. This is very important information and you have no right to continue this debate if you don't answer. My emotional wellbeing depends on this. Tell me.

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

I'm getting very bored of saying the same thing over and over again. In point form:

1) When you enter sl, you agree to TOS in which you accept you have no right to anyone's rl information, nor they to yours.

2) When you enter sl, you are seeking a digital experience and you have no right to anything further.

3) As you are not entitled to anyone's rl information, they are under no obligation to provide it to you.

4) The vulnerable people are more likely to be those giving out their rl information than those selfish idiots who think they have a right to it.

To Point 1; here are the only relevant sections I could find.:

From the TOS:

Disclosing Personal Information in Profiles, Forums or within Second Life

You may choose to disclose personal information in our online forums, via your Second Life profile, directly to other users in chat or otherwise while using Second Life. Please be aware that such information is public information and you should not expect privacy or confidentiality of this information.

From Community Standards (which, by agreeing to the TOS we agree to honor)

Disclosure

Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Life experience. Sharing personal information about your fellow Residents without their consent -- including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, alternate account names, and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their Resident profile -- is not allowed. Remotely monitoring conversations in Second Life, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without the participants' consent are all prohibited.

I don't see that as saying anything about how I don't have the right to ask (never have, mind you), but all that says to me is that I'm entitled to all the RL privacy I wish. If I talk about RL in a public place, like this one, I'm entitled to all the privacy that grants: zero. I have the right to ask, I have the right to answer, I have the right to tell the asker 'none of your business'.

To Point 3:

What you either don't see or won't acknowledge about the majority of the posters you disagree with (include me in that lot, by the way) is that virtually none of them said anything about being entitled. Most have said that LYING about one's RL with intent to gain in something as emotionally involved as an SL relationship can be is wrong. It's wrong in RL, too.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

To Point 1; here are the only relevant sections I could find.:

From the TOS:

Disclosing Personal Information in Profiles, Forums or within Second Life

You may choose to disclose personal information in our online forums, via your Second Life profile, directly to other users in chat or otherwise while using Second Life. Please be aware that such information is public information and you should not expect privacy or confidentiality of this information.

Yes. No arguments there. If you wish to tell us the truth about yourself, of course you can. And if you want to tell us that you're an incredibly sexy porn star with a million pounds in the bank, a Lamborghini and Brad Pitt's number in your iPhone, you can tell us that, too.


Dillon Levenque wrote:

I don't see that as saying anything about how I don't have the right to ask (never have, mind you)


Nobody ever said you had no right to ask. But you have no right to the information, and therefore nobody you ask is obliged to give you the correct answer.


Dillon Levenque wrote:


To Point 3:

What you either don't see or won't acknowledge about the majority of the posters you disagree with (include me in that lot, by the way) is that virtually none of them said anything about being entitled. Most have said that LYING about one's RL with intent to gain in something as emotionally involved as an SL relationship can be is wrong. It's wrong in RL, too.

I see it very well, but because you lot have nothing but highly emotive "but I want it" arguments in response, you don't grasp the much simpler point I'm making. You are not entitled to this information. (Yes, you can ask. No, you are not entitled.) Since you are not entitled to it, nobody is obliged to be honest with you about it.

That's it.

You're not entitled to it, so nobody is obliged to be honest with you about it.

RL is a completely different kettle of fish, because it's real. If you want rl information about people, look in rl. If you want digital approximations where you, and everyone you meet, can pick and choose what they want to tell you, go right ahead. Just don't start claiming that you have the right to offline information in an online world purely to prevent yourself from hurt. If your experience is digital, you are not entitled to anything beyond that. No, not even if it pisses you off on a personal level.

There are indeed predatory people on the internet. Generally, they will try to get your rl information. If we stick to the correct attitude - that nobody is entitled to your information just because they are attached to you - then we're all much safer than if we go around telling people they have a moral obligation to pass information to people who claim to want it because they're in lurve.

 

Edited to correct a word.

 

 

 

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