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Ryann Adder

How would you react to finding out your partner is not really the sex of their avatar?

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Nope. You are missing the point altogether.  We're talking about two things on this posting.  1) how each inidividual reacts to the situation  and b) how we feel people should treat each other.

I don't think  anyone is using the exhausted term "victim" here.  Certainly not me.

When someone lies and manipulates another to their own personal gain, that is socioipathic behavior. period.  No distinction between the telephone, the internet, or face to face discussion.

Face it.  Digital communication has taken over our lives and it is evolving.  But we can expect, hope (and sure we will be disappointed) for the real people on the other end of the communications to act decently.

If someone is game to be pranked, or role play, fine.  Express it directly and hang out with like-minded people.  If someone is sincere in their expectations of forming a romantic friendship and asks to know the other person's sex or if they are in the appropriate age ballpark, then the other person can back out of the situation rather then lie.  Or just be direct and explain they personally conduct themselves in SL is with total anonymity and leave it to the other person to make the leap or not.

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

Nope. You are missing the point altogether.  We're talking about two things on this posting.  1) how each inidividual reacts to the situation  and b) how we feel people should treat each other.

Very well. 1) Probably not best pleased, but they knew the risks and my sympathy is limited. b) By respecting their privacy online.

 


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

When someone lies and manipulates another to their own personal gain, that is socioipathic behavior.

And it is not what we are talking about, unless, like Mags, you have to shift goalposts and change the topic every time you realise you've struck out. You said that people who enter relationships online while refusing to divulge information they have every right to keep secret (didn't you start the thread about rl ages?) are sociopaths. This is obscene. Too many people in this virtual world have no sense of personal responsibility and a quite sickening sense of entitlement.

 


Nacy Nightfire wrote:If someone is sincere in their expectations of forming a romantic friendship and asks to know the other person's sex or if they are in the appropriate age ballpark, then the other person can back out of the situation rather then lie. 


No. If I decide to have a male av, for any reason, and you ask me whether I'm an rl woman, it incriminates me to say "I don't answer questions like that". If you decide you want to enter into a virtual relationship with someone you haven't met, you can't then weep and play victim if you later find out they were not honest with you. If you want only a digital experience (and in sl, that's all you have the right to ask for), then rl shouldn't come into it.

My privacy - and yours - is paramount. If I can choose not to enter a relationship on dishonest grounds, the "victim" can choose to seek their relationships in a place where they have a right to obtain the information they desire.

Do we have to share weight, number of teeth and eye colour as well?

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Additionally you wrote:

"All of this, from you and Mags, basically comes down to the idea that we should have the right to strip internet people of their rl privacy when we feel it appropriate in order to protect ourselves from the risks we knew damn well we were taking the minute we logged on."

Wrong-o

No one is denying anyone who wants internet privacy in SL their right to it.  I am not a proponant of forced RL disclosure. 

I'm a proponent of people  being honest about giving out RL information when they claim to do so. Or telling people that they don not ever mix RL information of any kind with SL under any circumstance.  If one plans to fabricate, do it in the context of clearly defined role-play or  lie, but stick to the lie, don't pull the rug out from under the person who had enough trust to get involved in the first place.

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

No one is denying anyone who wants internet privacy in SL their right to it.  I am not a proponant of forced RL disclosure. 

I'm a proponent of people  being honest about giving out RL information when they claim to do so.

And when they are asked to do so, and put on the spot, they have the perfect right to lie to protect that privacy, because they have no other option.

In a nutshell, Nacy, the right to rl privacy overrides everything else. It most certainly overrides the right of someone else not to risk getting pissed off on a personal level because the risk they knew they were taking didn't work.

 

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"You said that people who enter relationships online while refusing to divulge information they have every right to keep secret (didn't you start the thread about rl ages?) are sociopaths. This is obscene. Too many people in this virtual world have no sense of personal responsibility and a quite sickening sense of entitlement."

Well who's being "Ms. Twisty" here?  I didn't say any such thing.  I said people who lie knowing the other party believes the lie to be the truth and therefore that person bases their  decision to go forward in the partnership with the other person, that is predatory behavior and its sociopathic behavior.

And obscene is a rather dramatic don't you think?

I don't see anyone on this thread claiming to be a victim, or otherwise acting entitled.  We are all entitled, however, to be treated humanely and decently.  Each and every one of us.  Although I'm not so naive to think its going to happen on the whole.

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"And when they are asked to do so, and put on the spot, they have the perfect right to lie to protect that privacy, because they have no other option.

In a nutshell, Nacy, the right to rl privacy overrides everything else. It most certainly overrides the right of someone else not to risk getting pissed off on a personal level because the risk they knew they were taking didn't work."

I have no problems in special circumstances when people  must lie to protect their privacy.  This isn't what we are talking about here.  If you are asked to divulge your RL age or Sex or any other RL bit of info as part of a "contract" to enter into a relationship, then you can always NOT sign on the dotted line.  That is an option.  Log out.  Mute the person.  Man up and tell the person directly that you absolutely don't share any personal info. You don't have to tell and you don't have to get involved with the person to whom this info is important.

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

"You said that people who enter relationships online while refusing to divulge information they have every right to keep secret (didn't you start the thread about rl ages?) are sociopaths. This is obscene. Too many people in this virtual world have no sense of personal responsibility and a quite sickening sense of entitlement."

Well who's being "Ms. Twisty" here?  I didn't say any such thing.....obscene is a rather dramatic don't you think?

Your exact words: "But to lie and mislead when you know a) the other person, having asked is misled by a lie and b) the other person embarks on the relationship based on a lie, that is sociopathic behavior in my opinion, in RL or SL."

It may be dishonest behaviour. It may be dishonourable behaviour. But it is not sociopathic behaviour, and please believe me when I say some of us really, really, really don't like words like "psychopath" and "sociopath" being bandied about incorrectly. No, I do not think "obscene" is dramatic at all. Defending one's privacy, even after being put on the spot so it is nigh on impossible to retreat graciously, is not sociopathic, nor is it predatory.

If I want to defend my privacy about my gender, I cannot really block a question like "are you an rl female"? So I may feel inclined to lie about it. It may be dishonest. It may be dishonourable. But my right to privacy overrides X's right not to be pissed off personally in what is, essentially, a dating agency where we've all gone in blindfolded and accepting of the situation.

Protecting my privacy is not sociopathic or predatory. You can dress it up as obscenely as you wish, but ultimately, it comes down to the fact that my right - and your right - to withhold personal data trumps everything else. Including those who enter a relationship in a virtual world and demand it to be real.

 

 

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Now who's intellectually dishonest.  And I must say you've gone past your expiration date for that expresion.

When you lie and manipulate for your own gain, fully knowing the other person is giving up something based on a lie, that is manipulative and sociopathic.  Period end of story.

You can always walk away rather then give up any RL information. I do it all the time in SL. If asked about RL details, I say I don't discuss x or y in SL and people accept it.  If they don't then they are mute-a-licious.  I don't lie and partner with them.  In fact I take those questions as a sign that they are incompatible with my way of conducting myself in SL and they are better off partnering with someone else.  I walk away...doesn't mean we can't remain friends, but we don't partner based on a manipulation.

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

Now who's intellectually dishonest. 


What did I say that was intellectually dishonest?

 


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

When you lie and manipulate for your own gain, fully knowing the other person is giving up something based on a lie, that is manipulative and sociopathic.


No. Sociopathy is a recognised mental condition (actually a collection of them) that is diagnosed by experts, not people making emotive comments about internet relationships. Defending your privacy online is not sociopathic, and you are being offensive by pretending that it is.

I also dispute that people who lie constantly about their gender in an ongoing relationship are automatically being manipulative. I've seen many cases where they were being manipulated and felt compelled to maintain the illusion because the "victim" was investing too much in them, in order to make them feel too trapped to leave.


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

You can always walk away rather then give up any RL information.


You can. And you can always walk away from a relationship in which you don't know for certain even as much as the rl gender of the person you claim to be madly in love with.

 

As I have said several times, Nacy - the right to privacy overrides everything else. It may be dishonest and dishonourable to maintain a lie when someone else is becoming emotionally attached, but the right to rl privacy is much, much more important than the right of someone not to get pissed off after they knowingly walked into a dating agency where everyone's effectively deaf and blind.

 

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Of course you don't actually know that I'm not a professional able to make such a diagnosis, do you?

Here's just one example of many where you are being intellectually dishonest:

"Defending your privacy online is not sociopathic, and you are being offensive by pretending that it is.

I also dispute that people who lie constantly about their gender in an ongoing relationship are automatically being manipulative. I've seen many cases where they were being manipulated and felt compelled to maintain the illusion because the "victim" was investing too much in them, in order to make them feel too trapped to leave."

I have repeatedly stated that I have no problems with a person's decision of maintaining privacy in SL.  I did not call this sociopatic behavior.   I said lying knowing the other person is making a decision from which you will personally gain (thru partnership or money or whatever)  based on their belief that the lie is true..and you KNOW you have lied to manipulate them.  That is sociopathic.  Quite a leap you took to claim I ever said that defending one's privacy is what I mean by sociopathic.  I never once said protecting your RL identity is sociopathic.

" also dispute that people who lie constantly about their gender in an ongoing relationship are automatically being manipulative. I've seen many cases where they were being manipulated and felt compelled to maintain the illusion because the "victim" was investing too much in them, in order to make them feel too trapped to leave." 

This is very convoluted and I'm not sure I completely understand you...are you saying this person is too trapped in a virtual relationship, indeed too much of a VICTIM, to leave and thus must perpetuate a lie?  Bullshift.  Log out.  Play some other game.  Play WOW or read a book.  No one has to lie under this scenerio.

"You can. And you can always walk away from a relationship in which you don't know for certain even as much as the rl gender of the person you claim to be madly in love with."

Or even better, you can say at the start, " I don't give out any RL information, including my gender" before the relation begins  and before it turns into "mad love".

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

Of course you don't actually know that I'm not a professional able to make such a diagnosis, do you?

Are you?

 


Nacy Nightfire wrote:I have repeatedly stated that I have no problems with a person's decision of maintaining privacy in SL.  I did not call this sociopatic behavior.  


I know. I didn't claim you did. You said that entering a relationship with someone on sl without being honest about one's own gender is sociopathic, and I called you on that. How very intellectually dishonest you are.

 


Nacy Nightfire wrote: I never once said protecting your RL identity is sociopathic.

And we never once mentioned rl identities, only rl physical features. More intellectual dishonesty from you.

 

 


Nacy Nightfire wrote: Bullshift.  Log out.  Play some other game.  Play WOW or read a book.  No one has to lie under this scenerio.

I love this. I'd like to repeat it a few times.

Hey, all you people who think you're blameless victims of circumstance because you didn't get information you had no right to demand? Here's some good advice for you. Log out.  Play some other game.  Play WOW or read a book.  

Log out.  Play some other game.  Play WOW or read a book. 

Log out.  Play some other game.  Play WOW or read a book.  

 

You do not owe honesty to people who ask you for information to which they have no right.

 

 

 

 

 

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You're a panic, Elisheva. 

Your sole delight on this forum is to create instances where you can accuse other people of being intellectually dishonest.  As if that makes you an intellectual.  You don't even seem to understand the meaning of the term. 

I'm sorry, but you'll forever have the name "Miss Twisty" in my mind. 

- Cheers! 

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Both sides in this so-called "discussion" have valid stances, but both are also guilty of either not understanding, or not giving validity to a different way of approaching and using SL. This whole tangle is for the same exact reasons why those who employ game-think or roleplay-think in SL DO NOT mesh well on a personal/relationship level with those who employ RL-think in their approach to SL, and vice versa.

Saying "a digital experience" is most definitely a gamers or roleplayers approach.. preserving some detachment and privacy while pushing the interactive boundaries in the name of pure, innocent entertainment. Labeling a relationship interaction as "dishonest" or "predatory" (in this subjects context) is without a doubt the same viewpoint taken by RL-thinkers.. truthfulness about things that matter, when it counts, is an implicit assumption and expexctation of those who "get inside" to where the individual can be hurt.

As a strict SL immersionist, my stance lies directly between these two camps, and I both: 1) treat SL strictly as an immersive experience for pure entertainment  .. and 2) am always myself and interact with others in implicit honesty on an emotional / human level. Because of where I sit, it's easy for me to see that both of you are completely correct and your stances are totally valid. The discrepancy here is due to the direction in which each of you come from, the differences in how each of you approach SL, and it highlights the perspective fact that ends rarely seem to meet when the starting bases are so different. That conflict of perspective and expectations can be a rather annoying fact of life in SL (or its forums), but the only real hurdles in all of it are recognizing that it's the exact same scene lived and experienced though different pairs of eyes, and accepting that others still see everything correctly even though they see it differently.

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Dana Hickman wrote:

Both
sides in this so-called "discussion" have valid stances, but
both
are also guilty of either not understanding, or not giving validity to a different way of approaching and using SL. This whole tangle is for the
same exact reasons
why those who employ game-think or roleplay-think in SL
DO NOT
mesh well on a personal/relationship level with those who employ RL-think in their approach to SL, and vice versa.

Saying "a digital experience" is most definitely a gamers or roleplayers approach.. preserving some detachment and privacy while pushing the interactive boundaries in the name of pure, innocent entertainment. Labeling a relationship interaction as "dishonest" or "predatory" (in this subjects context) is without a doubt the same viewpoint taken by RL-thinkers.. truthfulness about things that matter, when it counts, is an implicit assumption and expexctation of those who "get inside" where the individual can be hurt.

As a strict SL immersionist, my stance lies directly between these two camps, and I
both
: 1) treat SL strictly as an immersive experience for pure entertainment  .. and 2) am always myself and interact with others in implicit honesty on an emotional / human level. Because of where I sit, it's easy for me to see that both of you are completely correct and your stances are totally valid. The discrepancy here is due to the direction in which each of you come from, the differences in how each of you approach SL, and it highlights the perspective fact that ends rarely seem to meet when the starting bases are so different. That conflict of perspective and expectations can be a rather annoying fact of life in SL (or its forums), but the only real hurdles in all of it are
recognizing
that it's the exact same scene lived and experienced though different pairs of eyes, and
accepting
that others still see everything correctly even though they see it differently.

Bravo! Well said.

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

You're a panic, Elisheva. 

Your sole delight on this forum is to create instances where you can accuse other people of being intellectually dishonest.  As if that makes you an intellectual.  You don't even seem to understand the meaning of the term. 

I'm sorry, but you'll forever have the name "Miss Twisty" in my mind. 

- Cheers! 

Good, solid answer!

Well, at least I can now be certain that you're not a psychiatrist with the ability to diagnose people. I tell you, you really had me going there.

 

Edited to make a little briefer. The point is the same.

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Dana Hickman wrote:

Both
sides in this so-called "discussion" have valid stances, but
both
are also guilty of either not understanding, or not giving validity to a different way of approaching and using SL...

No, you're complicating the issue. I've made the key point many times over. It is, quite simply: your right to rl privacy trumps all.

Doesn't matter if you're interacting with someone who wants reality but has chosen not to look in real life for it. Person X has no right to complain about not receiving accurate information, because Person X has no right to this information anyway. If s/he receives it, it's a gift and a privilege. Not a right.

 

ETA (sorry, I hate doing this): If the anti-privacy brigade are concerned about emotional wellbeing, they might like to consider the entirely plausible scenario of the groomer - perhaps a real sociopath - who seeks out vulnerable people online and strikes up a relationship with them. This person may use all these same arguments Mags and Nacy have used in order to get their victims to volunteer real life data.

Feeling pressured to share your rl information with someone on the internet is the greatest danger you should be concerned about on the internet. Privacy trumps all.

 

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

No, you're complicating the issue. I've made the key point many times over. It is, quite simply: your right to rl privacy trumps all.

 

No, I'm not. I've simplified it down to the base cause of why you even HAVE these opposing angles. If you choose not to give validity to what they feel is most important to them, and they do the same to your primary concern in return, that ends up just about exactly right here.. at the somewhat intolerant disagreement of perspective that's become an impasse. Failure to admit that your way isn't the only proper and acceptable way to use SL doesn't mean that you are correct, it only means that you care more for imposing your side of the argument than you do for the issue you're arguing over.

It's no different than a right-hander and a left-hander squabbling over what the proper way to use a universal-handed pair of scissors is. The only proper way is merely to get the job done and don't friggin cut yourself.

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Dana Hickman wrote:

 

ntolerant disagreement of perspective

This is not a complicated "perspective" issue about relative morality. Nobody is failing to understand that some people invest more in sl than others do. Please give us a little credit.

This is all about the very very simple principle that when you are on the internet, nobody has the right to claim your rl information.

Mags and Nacy believe that if I enter an sl relationship with someone who wants to know my rl details, I lose the right to withhold these details. Never mind that it's not against any of the TOS to pretend you're an rl man if you're not. Never mind the fact that I might be a very young or very vulnerable person being pressured to give up personal information by someone who claims they'll be mentally scarred forever if I'm dishonest with them. Never mind that a digital experience is the only experience we have a right to claim on here.

I'm going to be talking to a 19-year-old later about the internet (rather young for her years, if I'm honest). Do you think I should tell her that, if she meets someone online and she likes them and wants to enter an internet relationship with them, she should feel obliged to pass up any rl information? On the grounds that otherwise she's being sociopathic, or manipulative, or indefensibly dishonest? Or do you think I should tell her, "Never, ever, ever feel pressured to tell anyone on the internet anything at all about yourself, under any circumstances"?

 

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

 

Mags and Nacy believe that if I enter an sl relationship with someone who wants to know my rl details, I lose the right to withhold these details.

 

Not really, more like if you enter into a SL relationship with someone who wants to know your RL details,  you completely lose your right to continue roleplaying your little fantasy character at their emotional expense! You're RL info is still safe, you're still completely free to NOT give that info as much as you da*n want, and they're still free to dump your a$$ if you won't. So what if they ask too much, or them asking throws up a roadblock to your continued roleplay, it's immaterial, their right to not get their hearts stomped on in a very real way completely trumps your right to play fantasy games at someone elses RL expense. You either see the bet, or you fold... boo hooo IMO.

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Dana Hickman wrote:

 

Not really, more like if you enter into a SL relationship with someone who wants to know your RL details, 
you completely lose your right to continue roleplaying your little fantasy character at their emotional expense!
 

Of course you don't. Your right to rl privacy is much, much more important than their emotions and the fact they've chosen to use a digital dating agency designed for digital experiences. There's a reason the TOS don't extend to having to sacrifice your privacy to someone with no sense of personal responsibility and a horrible sense of entitlement to your offline life.

Emotional blackmail is not a justification.


Dana Hickman wrote:

You're RL info is still safe


Your real life gender IS your rl info. Besides, as I've said before, if I can't hide my gender, what can I hide? Exactly how much are people entitled to get from me on the grounds of emotional blackmail? Where are these lines drawn?

 


Dana Hickman wrote:

You either see the bet, or you fold... boo hooo IMO.


Quite. The bet is that, if you go into a virtual world and seek out partners there, presumably while hiding your own rl details, likelihood is that others will be exercising the same rights as you. You have NO RIGHT to the rl information of people you meet online, just as they have no right to yours.

You still haven't told me what I should say to the teenager I'm meeting a bit later.

 

 

 

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

Quite. The bet is that, if you go into a virtual world and seek out partners there, presumably while hiding your own rl details, likelihood is that others will be exercising the same rights as you. You have NO RIGHT to the rl information of people you meet online, just as they have no right to yours.

 

You're correct, they don't have a right to someone elses info, that's just stoopid... but they do have a right to ask for it for their own security. What you do beyond that point is your choice.

Yeah, it's an ultimatum... I give them to my BF all the time about that da*m toilet seat!

 

..and of course you tell said girl not to be spewing RL info, but then ultimately whether the prize is worth the price in her eyes isn't up to you.

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Dana Hickman wrote:

 

You're correct, they don't have a right to someone elses info, that's just stoopid... but they do have a right to
ask
for it for their own security.

Their own security??? Is this some kind of joke? You're telling me people should succumb to emotional blackmail and pass out their real life information to people on the internet in the name of security???

 

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

Their own security??? Is this some kind of joke?

To help ensure the chances of being lied to and played like a used violin are as low as can be reasonably expected under such conditions? Absolutely! No question about it. Just because YOU don't like the price to continue riding that ride doesn't mean that what they ask is so universally unacceptable to everyone. It matters not if you don't agree with the asking. *I* don't necessarily agree with it either, and I don't give out zip for info, but it's still within their rights to ask.

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Dana Hickman wrote:

To help ensure the chances of being lied to and played like a used violin are as low as can be reasonably expected


If you don't want to risk being lied to about gender, you look in rl. You are not a passive victim of fate if you log into a virtual environment and then expect everyone to give up their rl information to you just because you think you have a right not to be pissed off.

 


Dana Hickman wrote: it's still within their rights to ask.

And it's still within my rights to say anything I like about it to protect my privacy. It's not against the TOS to lie about your rl, but it is against them to share rl information about people without their consent. That is because LL understand that our rl privacy and safety is paramount, and your "right" to demand real information in a digital sphere is not.

 

So what should I tell the teenager?

 

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

You are not a passive victim of fate if you log into a virtual environment and then expect everyone to give up their rl information to you just because you think you have a right not to be pissed off.

I never suggested anything of the sort.

 


Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

And it's still within my rights to say anything I like about it to protect my privacy. It's not against the TOS to lie about your rl, but it is against them to share rl information about people without their consent.

It is NOT against the TOS to share info about yourself, read it once. That clause only applies to sharing info about OTHER people.

So you still maintain that it's cool to lie and make up stuff instead of just denying the request for whatever reason? Ya know, that speaks volumes about what kind of person would do that, and for most people I'd like to think they were smart enough to weed people like that out before ever getting any kind emotional with them. Common sense and all..

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