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Ryann Adder

How would you react to finding out your partner is not really the sex of their avatar?

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Marigold Devin wrote:<snipped>

And to Mags, I got accused of being a "brown-noser" last week, so maybe you should disassociate yourself from me too. (winkey, smiley, tongue out with eyebrows up smiley face) 


I am horrified and shocked...

... how do you make that face again???

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

you wrote:

"You have pretty much summed up a lot of what I think, feel and have argued (ineptly I might add) here for some time. There is a distinct difference between RP, having fun pretending to be someone/something else - and having fun at someone else's expense through lies and deception. It's always so much easier to blame the gullible (apologies to said gullible) rather than look at standards of behaviour. 

But that's just my opinion - and apparantly a very flawed one at that.

Sorry if this has associated you with me **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif" border="0" alt=":smileyindifferent:" title="Smiley Indifferent" />"

 

Your rational and well written post to this thread is what motivated me to chime in here, and I don't see any flaws, so I'm delighted if this has associated me with your views here.  (although I've been called a narcissist - supposedly in "jest" - as well as an a**ole, and a person of spiteful character on one of these threads here a week or so ago when I expressed my personal opinons about theraputic support groups in  in SL, so you may want to disassociate yourself from any association with ME! :matte-motes-agape:

Sometimes I wonder if i make any sense at all because what some people read is nothing at all like what I believe I've written. Finding people who do seem to read the same 'language' that I write is a relief.

Maybe there's a club for people who p**s other people off regularly!

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Marigold Devin wrote:<snipped>

Everyone is flawed. Everyone.


Yes they are - and I no less than anyone else - unfortunately

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Well it's up to you. I personally would end the relationship. It's a bit horrifing to find that the person you've loved and trusted turned out to be a different gender. On top of that, if they lied about their gender who knows what else they have lied about!

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Wesli97 wrote:

Well it's up to you. I personally would end the relationship. It's a bit horrifing to find that the person you've loved and trusted turned out to be a different gender. On top of that, if they lied about their gender who knows what else they have lied about!

I know. How very dare they. It's absolutely horrifying and completely unjustifiable and utterly bang out of order. It's not as if, if you're looking for someone to love and trust, and whose gender you feel you have a right to know, that there's ANYWHERE APART FROM THE INTERNET YOU MIGHT FIND SUCH A PERSON.

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"How would you react to finding out your partner is not really the sex of their avatar?"

There is zero chance of me having to face that dilemma because:

1) I would never consider partnership in SL.
2) But If i did, I'm also an immersionist, which means I'm bound into taking all AVs as they present themselves.

Living a SL that strives only to know AV's and the personalities behind them tends to free one of the burden that caring about RL identity or gender brings. That's certainly one major advantage to looking at SL this way, and possibly the strongest reason why something like this couldn't ever be anything more than a "Oh that's cool" moment for me... even if I had been fooled the whole time. I've knowingly dated guys who were RL female, as well as a few women who were RL men.. Big deal, RL simply does not matter to me here in SL. I would have a much bigger problem with it if it was someone revealing the fact that their RL spouse likes to watch!

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I was reading this forum on a cell phone and got out of bed, found the laptop, got back up for the password book, all that to just say what I said, because I got really pissed off at some of the attitudes I was reading here. People get hurt really bad in SL by creeps who think an avatar is an excuse to be a ASS H. I sure as hell wouldn't lie about my sex knowing this lie was going to hurt someone. Actling like it doesn't matter in SL is a load of horse S. There are RL ppls behind that avi! I know what it did to a few friends in SL. One, a man, was married to someone he thought was a woman for over a year, and when he discovered (not that he came clean), that it was a man, he was devistated to the core. I don't care if it's an avatar, if you present yourself as a man or woman and go into a relationship knowing that the other person "believes" you to be a certain sex, and you don't clarify it, you're a putz. Period. Fantasy is well and fine,but not on another person's heart. No one can say, oh this is SL, what do you excpect? BS. SL and RL are a slippery slope and anyone who has been involved here in a relationship bloody well knows it.

 

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

How people would feel is utterly irrelevant. If you want to know real life information about someone, look in real life. When you chase a virtual experience, that's all you're entitled to,

Nobody on the internet owes you any real life information. You do not owe anyone on the internet any real life information. If you want real life information, look in real life.

God, how difficult is this to grasp?

I've boldened the bit that caught my interest...

Now if I buy a painting from an artist who advertises himself as really being say... Harry Smith the artist... and pay for it and it arrives and it's actually painted by Doris Fitzwich - that means I have no recourse for my money? Because it was all on the internet??? Where as if the same thing had happened in a 'RL' shop I could sue the owner???

The internet is no different than any other part of life - neither are the contractual arrangements - if you say something is real and someone buys it - they have recourse by law. Of course money has always been more valued than emotional welfare so there isn't the same recourse in law for people who are lied to by prospective partners about personal things. Doesn't make it any more right IMO. And yes we can all say that anyone who believes what anyone tells them is a fool (either world) but that doesn't mean the person telling the lies is right - it just means they get away with it.

And no I'm not talking about the more casual friendly encounters for 'good times and the sex' that SL and the internet is so apparently famous for. So please don't invoke that one - once again I'll repeat I am talking about people who deliberately lie and deceive while swearing they aren't in order to take advantage of someone else. Internet or not - that stinks and no one will ever make me think different.

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Mags Indigo wrote:

Now if I buy a painting from an artist who advertises himself as really being say... Harry Smith the artist... and pay for it and it arrives and it's actually painted by Doris Fitzwich - that means I have no recourse for my money?

 

I thought it would be pretty obvious that fraud and mis-selling goods is entirely different to choosing to withhold whatever personal information you wish from a bunch of internet strangers. Your analogy is ridiculous.

If you want to open your heart to people on the internet, you can of course do so, but they do not owe you any real life, personal information, and nor do you owe it to them.

The sense of entitlement some people have on here is really laughable. They won't go into rl, and yet they think everyone on the internet  owes them whatever rl information they want to have.

If you want to make sure you're talking to an rl man or woman, look in rl. If you just want to open your heart to anonymous strangers, you've done it. You have no right to claim rl information from people. None whatsoever.

 

 

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:


Mags Indigo wrote:

Now if I buy a painting from an artist who advertises himself as really being say... Harry Smith the artist... and pay for it and it arrives and it's actually painted by Doris Fitzwich - that means I have no recourse for my money?

 

I thought it would be pretty obvious that fraud and mis-selling goods is entirely different to choosing to withhold whatever personal information you wish from a bunch of internet strangers. Your analogy is ridiculous.

If you want to open your heart to people on the internet, you can of course do so, but they do not owe you any real life, personal information, and nor do you owe it to them.

The sense of entitlement some people have on here is really laughable. They won't go into rl, and yet they think everyone on the internet  owes them whatever rl information they want to have.

If you want to make sure you're talking to an rl man or woman, look in rl. If you just want to open your heart to anonymous strangers, you've done it. You have no right to claim rl information from people. None whatsoever.

 

 

In my opinion lots of things are pretty obvious - just different things to different people. As such I tend to base my belief system on what 'I' believe to be the right thing. 

Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

"If you want to make sure you're talking to an rl man or woman, look in rl. If you just want to open your heart to anonymous strangers, you've done it. You have no right to claim rl information from people. None whatsoever."

I never mentioned rl man/woman or even pussycat, I merely said what I believe - that people who lie and decieve others for their own entertainment are wrong to do so. Now we can all agree that anyone who believes anything anyone tells them on the internet is a fool it still doesn't make the person who tells the lies right.

And actually, just for the record, it never matters to me if I'm talking to said man, woman or pussycat in SL, neither do I claim any RL information from anyone. I take what people tell me with the proverbial grain of salt, but then I'm not in a situation where someone has lured me into thinking they are my friend - I'm (unfortunately perhaps) in the same group as you - far too cynical to make friends.

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Mags Indigo wrote:

I never mentioned rl man/woman or even pussycat, I merely said what I believe - that people who lie and decieve others for their own entertainment are wrong to do so.

Well, you were responding to me, and that's what both I and the OP were talking about, so I think it was fair to assume you were going on the same topic. If instead you just wanted to make the nice, general and pretty indisputable statement that LYING AND DECEIVING FOR TEH LULZ IS A VERY VERY BAD THING MMMKAY, then not many people would argue with you, but we'd also wonder why you felt the need to say something so very blindingly obvious.

But what you went on to do instead was draw a bizarre analogy, whereby you compared being guarded about your personal rl and maintaining your own privacy to fraud and the mis-selling of goods for money. It's a ridiculous analogy.

Some people change their gender on sl. They may be transgender, they may be interested in a little gender bending, they may just be interested to get a taste of what it's like on the other side. It's irrelevant. If you go on the internet to pour out your heart and get some sexual kicks, you have every right - but you're also willingly and knowingly going into a place where you know people aren't likely to be exactly as they appear, and you're accepting that risk. They, of course, don't know whether you're as young, slim and female as your av either.

If we're not allowed to withhold our genders, what else can't we keep secret? If you weigh 15 stone in rl, are you obliged to volunteer that information and risk breaking the heart of your partner who presumed you weren't a whale? Do you have to tell them how many teeth you have? How many spots?

You go on the internet, presumably to maintain some of your privacy. Respect the rights of others to do the same. And take a little personal responsibility. You're here for digital experiences. You get them.

 

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:


Mags Indigo wrote:

I never mentioned rl man/woman or even pussycat, I merely said what I believe - that people who lie and decieve others for their own entertainment are wrong to do so.

Well, you were responding to me, and that's what both I and the OP were talking about, so I think it was fair to assume you were going on the same topic.
If instead you just wanted to make the nice, general and pretty indisputable statement that LYING AND DECEIVING FOR TEH LULZ IS A VERY VERY BAD THING MMMKAY, then not many people would argue with you, but we'd also wonder why you felt the need to say something so very blindingly obvious.

But what you went on to do instead was draw a bizarre analogy, whereby you compared being guarded about your personal rl and maintaining your own privacy to fraud and the mis-selling of goods for money. It's a ridiculous analogy.

Some people change their gender on sl. They may be transgender, they may be interested in a little gender bending, they may just be interested to get a taste of what it's like on the other side. It's irrelevant. If you go on the internet to pour out your heart and get some sexual kicks, you have every right - but you're also willingly and knowingly going into a place where you know people aren't likely to be exactly as they appear, and you're accepting that risk. They, of course, don't know whether you're as young, slim and female as your av either.

If we're not allowed to withhold our genders, what else can't we keep secret? If you weigh 15 stone in rl, are you obliged to volunteer that information and risk breaking the heart of your partner who presumed you weren't a whale? Do you have to tell them how many teeth you have? How many spots?

You go on the internet, presumably to maintain some of your privacy. Respect the rights of others to do the same. And take a little personal responsibility. You're here for digital experiences. You get them.

 

I've actually been involved in this thread for a while , and it has taken a few twists and turns - all not neccessarily bang on the OP.

As such I unreservedly apologise for replying to your post in the broader snese in which I thought the thread had expanded to.

As for my 'bizzare analogy' - take it as bizarre  but I was making the point (rather ineffectually obviously) that these days the internet is used by many people in ways that mirror their rl - and internet dating is oin many ways just as commonplace as buying things on the internet is. As such I don't really find it unusual that SL is now being looked at by some as a place where they might just meet Mr/Mrs/ Ms Right., and indeed some do despite all the hazards involved. 

People who take advantage of other people - be it financially (through fraud of any sort) or emotionally are - in my opinion - wrong. Now if that makes me some sort of idiot for mentioning something that is so 'blindingly obvious' it's because it doesn't seem to me that in SL it's obvious at all for some people. If one was to read this thread, and many more like it, without putting all the 'SL provisos' into operation the fact that deliberate deception is not a nice thing is not blindingly obvious at all and it is the gullible who are at fault - fools for believing - which seems to exhonerate the deceivers.

Anyone can withhold whatever information they want, be it about gender, size, age or whatever - anyone can give whatever false information they want it hardly matters when it's all superficial and noone gets hurt - but when they do so (and very deliberately do so, knowing exactly what they are doing) in order to lure someone else into a position where they trust them in order to take advantage of that trust - that is no longer their right - in my opinion.

Plus I'm obviously the type of person who likes to bring things back to the blindingly obvious at times - just in case it gets forgottem - my bad.

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Mags Indigo wrote:

 

As for my 'bizzare analogy' - take it as bizarre  but I was making the point (rather ineffectually obviously) that these days the internet is used by many people in ways that mirror their rl

Is it? So all these 7 foot Goreans, muscly men in skirts, planet boobed pornstars, strippers, sex slaves, glamazons, nekos, furries and mermaids are mirroring their rl? Where do these people live? Hampstead Garden Suburb?


Mags Indigo wrote: 

internet dating is oin many ways just as commonplace as buying things on the internet is. As such I don't really find it unusual that SL is now being looked at by some as a place where they might just meet Mr/Mrs/ Ms Right., and indeed some do despite all the hazards involved. 


But it's not internet dating. It's pixel porking. Some people may indeed be searching for their loving soulmate in Bondage Ranch (good luck, guys), and may include an rl photo and rl contact details in their profile, but most of us don't. Most of us are on the internet rather than a real life place because, for whatever reason, we wish to maintain our privacy. Just like all the others.

 


Mags Indigo wrote: 

People who take advantage of other people - be it financially (through fraud of any sort) or emotionally are - in my opinion - wrong. 

Stop shifting the goalposts and making silly, general, obvious statements to get around the fact that earlier, you made a daft analogy that got busted. It's a debate about whether people have the right to withhold their rl gender. Perhaps you assume everyone who's dishonest with their gender is doing it to TAKE ADVANTAGE of others and WRECK THEM EMOTIONALLY (which is one reason why you may like to keep your RL RELATIONSHIPS IN RL). In my experience, very few people are that conniving. They come on as another gender perhaps because they are curious, or because they are transgender in rl. 

And stop comparing financial fraud with the minefield of emotional relationships. It's not to say there's no such thing as bad behaviour to other people, but the two are not comparable. If I sell you a painting I did myself and tell you it's a Vermeer, taking your money for it, I've committed fraud and I'm mis-selling something and you have the right to sue me. If you meet me in a virtual world and I've decided to take on a male avatar for whatever reason, and you get very attached to me, you might be hurt (more or less hurt than when you also find out there's no chance of us taking this relationship into the real world?) but what have I done that's legally wrong? How have I "taken advantage" of you by exercising my right to be who I want to be in a fantasy land?

 

 


Mags Indigo wrote:

Anyone can withhold whatever information they want, be it about gender, size, age or whatever - anyone can give whatever false information they want it hardly matters when it's all superficial and noone gets hurt - but when they do so (and very deliberately do so, knowing exactly what they are doing) in order to lure someone else into a position where they trust them in order to take advantage of that trust - that is no longer their right - in my opinion.

 

How can you withhold information and not be deliberate about it? You've totally lost me.

At what point, then, does it stop being ok to exercise your perfect right to privacy? So if you and I pixel pork, is it ok if I'm in a male avatar the first time? The second time? The time we have a little deep and meaningful afterwards? When is this mystical line drawn between "superficial" and "a position of trust"?

I've read your argument several times over, and I can paraphrase it thus: "I want to be able to dictate when people lose their right to privacy. I don't want to take any personal responsibility for allowing myself to become too attached to someone I've never met and who could be anybody."

No. If you go on the internet, you accept from the start that people might be anything and neither you nor they owe any real life information. If you start getting attached, it's not everyone else's responsibility to give up their privacy. It's your responsibility to keep yourself in check, or get offline if you can't.

 

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:


Mags Indigo wrote:

 

As for my 'bizzare analogy' - take it as bizarre  but I was making the point (rather ineffectually obviously) that these days the internet is used by many people in ways that mirror their rl

Is it? So all these 7 foot Goreans, muscly men in skirts, planet boobed pornstars, strippers, sex slaves, glamazons, nekos, furries and mermaids are mirroring their rl? Where do these people live? Hampstead Garden Suburb?

Mags Indigo wrote: 

internet dating is oin many ways just as commonplace as buying things on the internet is. As such I don't really find it unusual that SL is now being looked at by some as a place where they might just meet Mr/Mrs/ Ms Right., and indeed some do despite all the hazards involved. 


But it's not internet dating. It's pixel porking. Some people may indeed be searching for their loving soulmate in Bondage Ranch (good luck, guys), and may include an rl photo and rl contact details in their profile, but most of us don't. Most of us are on the internet rather than a real life place because, for whatever reason, we wish to maintain our privacy. Just like all the others.

 

Mags Indigo wrote: 

People who take advantage of other people - be it financially (through fraud of any sort) or emotionally are - in my opinion - wrong. 

Stop shifting the goalposts and making silly, general, obvious statements to get around the fact that earlier, you made a daft analogy that got busted. It's a debate about whether people have the right to withhold their rl gender. Perhaps you assume everyone who's dishonest with their gender is doing it to TAKE ADVANTAGE of others and WRECK THEM EMOTIONALLY (which is one reason why you may like to keep your RL RELATIONSHIPS IN RL). In my experience, very few people are that conniving. They come on as another gender perhaps because they are curious, or because they are transgender in rl. 

And stop comparing financial fraud with the minefield of emotional relationships. It's not to say there's no such thing as bad behaviour to other people, but the two are not comparable. If I sell you a painting I did myself and tell you it's a Vermeer, taking your money for it, I've committed fraud and I'm mis-selling something and you have the right to sue me. If you meet me in a virtual world and I've decided to take on a male avatar for whatever reason, and you get very attached to me, you might be hurt (more or less hurt than when you also find out there's no chance of us taking this relationship into the real world?) but what have I done that's legally wrong? How have I "taken advantage" of you by exercising my right to be who I want to be in a fantasy land?

 

 

Mags Indigo wrote:

Anyone can withhold whatever information they want, be it about gender, size, age or whatever - anyone can give whatever false information they want it hardly matters when it's all superficial and noone gets hurt - but when they do so (and very deliberately do so, knowing exactly what they are doing) in order to lure someone else into a position where they trust them in order to take advantage of that trust - that is no longer their right - in my opinion.

 

How can you withhold information and not be deliberate about it? You've totally lost me.

At what point, then, does it stop being ok to exercise your perfect right to privacy? So if you and I pixel pork, is it ok if I'm in a male avatar the first time? The second time? The time we have a little deep and meaningful afterwards? When is this mystical line drawn between "superficial" and "a position of trust"?

I've read your argument several times over, and I can paraphrase it thus: "I want to be able to dictate when people lose their right to privacy. I don't want to take any personal responsibility for allowing myself to become too attached to someone I've never met and who could be anybody."

No. If you go on the internet, you accept from the start that people might be anything and neither you nor they owe any real life information. If you start getting attached, it's not everyone else's responsibility to give up their privacy. It's your responsibility to keep yourself in check, or get offline if you can't.

 

Actually I think you've made all my points there far better than I ever could - thank you... Apart from the blantantly obvious bit that I still believe in that is.

And thank you for the advice about my RL Relationships I shall give that due consideration also.

It's good to see that I'm not the only one who shifts goalposts and makes silly obvious statements to uphold 'arguments'.

'Nuff said.

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Mags Indigo wrote:

 
Actually I think you've made all my points there far better than I ever could - thank you... Apart from the blantantly obvious bit that I still believe in that is.

And thank you for the advice about my RL Relationships I shall give that due consideration also.

It's good to see that I'm not the only one who shifts goalposts and makes silly obvious statements to uphold 'arguments'.

'Nuff said.

There's not a single point or argument in this post of yours.

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:


Mags Indigo wrote:

 
Actually I think you've made all my points there far better than I ever could - thank you... Apart from the blantantly obvious bit that I still believe in that is.

And thank you for the advice about my RL Relationships I shall give that due consideration also.

It's good to see that I'm not the only one who shifts goalposts and makes silly obvious statements to uphold 'arguments'.

'Nuff said.

There's not a single point or argument in this post of yours.

You're right - I thought it was about time to stop fuelling the steam engine as it were. Or is that the wrong alalogy... hmmm... maybe. 

Just one wee thing which brings me right back to my first post 'to' you in this thread - and I will quote you to make the point...

Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

"And stop comparing financial fraud with the minefield of emotional relationships. It's not to say there's no such thing as bad behaviour to other people, but the two are not comparable. If I sell you a painting I did myself and tell you it's a Vermeer, taking your money for it, I've committed fraud and I'm mis-selling something and you have the right to sue me. If you meet me in a virtual world and I've decided to take on a male avatar for whatever reason, and you get very attached to me, you might be hurt (more or less hurt than when you also find out there's no chance of us taking this relationship into the real world?) but what have I done that's legally wrong? "

If all that determines for you when something is right ot wrong is when they have broken a law - been legally wrong - well any argument I could make would seem silly after that.

You also keep referring to 'me' - actually I don't do pixel porking or SL 'romances'  so for me this is a generalised discussion about when RP in SL ceases to be fantasy and becomes lies. In that, I was making an argument in general about people who deliberately lie and deceive beyond the fantasy for their own 'fun' or to take advantage of other people. Gender is one such way, but people have also lied about age (and I don't mean 5-10 years) and indeed location in the world in order to encourage someone else to believe that there would be an RL - many people have lost rl money too - but as it's SL/internet it somehow seems to be ok - and I disagree with that.

I have learned through many discussions on many threads in this forum (and indeed others) that a lot people choose to read what they believe/want other people to say rather than what is actually written. I respectfully suggest that is what you are doing with my posts. As such I now withdraw from this 'discussion'.

If anyone wants to see what I actually said and mean they can read back through the number of posts I have made to this thread - I have no intentions of recovering old ground ad infinitum - so I shall now bow out.

Have a nice evening - both worlds.

 

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Wheeee!  (I have to grab a fresh cup of coffee and read back a bit)

I always enjoy both Mags and Elisheva's postings...now I get to read them together!

Of course the OP is asking how one "reacts"  and all answers are valid.  Its a REACTION.  I have many reactions to things, not all I'm proud of.  My intellectual side and moral standards (I'm using the term "intellectual" loosely here) tells me many of my reactions are wrong, still I have a visceral  reaction to things which goes against my better judgement.

SL is such a paradox...it allows the freedom to represent oneself in anyway we can imagine, including invisible..we can fly and own a yacht and own that kitty we are allergic to in RL.  BUT we can have no assurance of what we interact with..the puppet master on the other end of the avatar.  That ruins the first part of the experience for alot of people.

RL - A while back I waited in my car while a friend (ex) went into a convenience store. She came back and went on and on about a 20 dollar bill just left on the counter unattended.  I was mystified..why did it matter? I'd have pointed it out to the clerk and never given it another thought.   Much later I learned there was an incident back in college that was hushed up involving this "friend".  She was almost thrown out  for being caught shoplifting from the University store.  For all I know she actually took the 20 dollars and I could have been arrested as an accomplice, having been driving the car we drove away in.   My reaction?  Profound sadness.  I like to think, even in a virtual world, people look at the big picture and take care of each other.

 

Edited because I wasn't finished and hit enter by mistake...so perhaps this doesn't make any sense. bleh.

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I'm replying to MYSELF! :matte-motes-agape:

"I like to think, even in a virtual world, people look at the big picture and take care of each other."

Actually I don't THINK this.  It would be ideal for me if it were the case.  I think quite the opposite is the sad reailty.  But I think in both RL and SL when you communicate directly to a person...for example you read on someones profile that they are 22 and they want to DATE you and you tell them anyone under 35 is too young for you.  Then they come back and say they lied on their profile and they are really 40.  You date for a while, 'break up with the person/avatar"  because something seems a bit odd about this 40 year old,  and find out afterwards they are even younger then 22.  How can that be ok or the fault of the person who gets duped?

This can happen in SL and the naive will learn this after a few hard and unpleasant knocks in SL since its out of the frame of reference for many people that anyone would go to such an effortto lie to another person, just for kicks.  It happens, yes, but its also a sad and discouraging statement about what people will do if their identity is hidden.  We all have to toughen up, but it still is an unpleasant comment about RL and the how people act.   And certainly in RL, there are people who lie to their lovers and spouses all the time about affairs and finances, etc.   Should we take the approach that they are ridiculous for trusting these people or ever taking a person at his/her word in an intimate relationship?

I think the standards DO change in partnerships vs random good friends you make in SL.  If no one asks when a partnership is formed, and/or there's a defined role-play scenario..then anything goes.  But if its a contract between two people which leaves you vulnerable to deeper emotional feelings, one would hope there would be some respect for the expressed desires of the other person to back off if they aren't what is expected. 

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

I'm replying to MYSELF! :matte-motes-agape:

"I like to think, even in a virtual world, people look at the big picture and take care of each other."

Actually I don't THINK this.  It would be ideal for me if it were the case.  I think quite the opposite is the sad reailty.  But I think in both RL and SL when you communicate directly to a person...for example you read on someones profile that they are 22 and they want to DATE you and you tell them anyone under 35 is too young for you.  Then they come back and say they lied on their profile and they are really 40.  You date for a while, 'break up with the person/avatar"  because something seems a bit odd about this 40 year old,  and find out afterwards they are even younger then 22.  How can that be ok or the fault of the person who gets duped?

This can happen in SL and the naive will learn this after a few hard and unpleasant knocks in SL since its out of the frame of reference for many people that anyone would go to such an effortto lie to another person, just for kicks.  It happens, yes, but its also a sad and discouraging statement about what people will do if their identity is hidden.  We all have to toughen up, but it still is an unpleasant comment about RL and the how people act.   And certainly in RL, there are people who lie to their lovers and spouses all the time about affairs and finances, etc.   Should we take the approach that they are ridiculous for trusting these people or ever taking a person at his/her word in an intimate relationship?

I think the standards DO change in partnerships vs random good friends you make in SL.  If no one asks when a partnership is formed, and/or there's a defined role-play scenario..then anything goes.  But if its a contract between two people which leaves you vulnerable to deeper emotional feelings, one would hope there would be some respect for the expressed desires of the other person to back off if they aren't what is expected. 

I'm putting on my flac jacket to add a comment to your post. 

In discussions like this I never wish to give the impression that I think everyone in SL, on the internet - or even RL for that matter - needs to tell casual acquaintances anything about themselves. I'll go a step further it's even ok in my book (not that it should matter to anyone else) to invent a fantasy life if one wants to share that with casual acquaintances - that's easier done on the internet and SL than in RL granted - but I have seen it happen in RL too, for short periods at any rate. (The old 'of course I'm not married - I live in a flat in **** and am just visiting my brother for the weekend' being a classic RL one in pubs and clubs around the world). And as you point out if no questions are asked and everyone is happy with fantasy land - no harm done to anyone.

Where the whole thing gets muddy is when relationships go beyond casual, and the myth-maker (seems a reasonable tag) goes to every length they can think of to encourage the 'other' to believe their fantasy is actually an RL truth - sometimes (actually most times) inventing yet another fantasy life (a little or a lot different from their SL and RL ones) to draw the other person into an illusion. I know of one person who actually took a plane journey to meet their 'partner' only to be left waiting at the airport with no one to greet them. Maybe some find that funny, I'm afraid I can't. Deception is never right IMO - but deception should not be confused with people acting out a 'game' with no ill intent... it changes when the intent changes. If I know someone likes me (perish the thought) and wants to get to know me in RL, I would be hugely unjustified (IMO) to lead them on with lies to allow them, even encourage them, to think that will happen.

To me, in cases like that - it is emotional fraud, and though not illegal like the financial one (even though in both cases the 'victims' may be equally gullible) is at least as reprehensible to me.

At a time when the internet is rapidly becoming the most popular way for people to communicate, and internet dating is the way many 'minority' groups (older than 35, with kids, disability, broke, gay, lesbian. transgendered etc etc etc) meet prospective partners, it is no longer a given that everyone on an internet platform 'knows' that it's all fair game and that to trust even the most seemingly credible of people is merely stupid.

It's not about not having fun, or having to be 'real' all the time - it's about considering the impact that our fantasies can have on another human being. If hurt happens and one didn't realise they were causing it - that's one thing - if someone goes all out to deliberately deceive someone else knowing that they are being cruel - that's something else entirely.

Yes I'm old, cranky and possibly even old-fashioned, but to me that's basic decency and the need for that doesn't go away just because one turns on a computer and enters in a fantasy name to get onto a virtual platform.

Now I really do need to take a bath and possibly get a little drunk.

 

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Mags Indigo wrote:

If all that determines for you when something is right ot wrong is when they have broken a law - been legally wrong - well any argument I could make would seem silly after that.

 

The analogy was ridiculous because you were equating financial crime with someone pissing you off on a personal level. I demonstrated to you how ridiculous it was by pointing that out. You responded by backpedalling and pretending you were only saying that deliberately going out of your way purely to try to hurt people is wrong. This is a completely different point, and an inane, facile one at that. The analogy was stupid, and it was yours, not mine. As was the intellectual dishonesty.

 


Mags Indigo wrote:

You also keep referring to 'me' - actually I don't do pixel porking or SL 'romances'  


I thought it was obvious that the situations involving 'you' and 'me' were hypothetical in order to demonstrate the points you have been constantly choosing to miss. If I had instead referred to 'person x' and 'person y', would that have made any difference?

Are you able to argue with what I actually said, or is shifting goalposts the only trick you have? Can you argue that people don't have the right to retain privacy on the internet, or can you only complain because I rhetorically referred to you and me to create a hypothetical example?

More intellectual dishonesty. You can't refute what I said. You can only jabber about irrelevant matters of rhetoric. Pathetic.


Mags Indigo wrote:

If anyone wants to see what I actually said and mean they can read back through the number of posts I have made to this thread - I have no intentions of recovering old ground ad infinitum - so I shall now bow out.

 

 

Indeed. They will see you equating financial crime with preserving their privacy on the internet. They will see you squirming when called on this, and pretending instead that you were only trying to say that it's not nice to be horrible to people. They will see me presenting you with a few hypothetical situations, saying 'So suppose I did this to you', and your only recourse being a complaint that I didn't use Jane and John instead.

There's something you should know about me, Mags. I don't care - really, really, really don't care - about losing an argument on the internet. In fact my masochistic side almost likes it. It challenges me, makes me change the way I think, gives me new perspectives, and, if I'm lucky, helps me to rip out someone else in a future debate. It's fun.

What I cannot stand is intellectual laziness and intellectual dishonesty, and that's all you've offered in this exchange.

 

Edited to fix formatting.

 

 

 

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:for example you read on someones profile that they are 22 and they want to DATE you and you tell them anyone under 35 is too young for you.  Then they come back and say they lied on their profile and they are really 40.  You date for a while, 'break up with the person/avatar"  because something seems a bit odd about this 40 year old,  and find out afterwards they are even younger then 22.  How can that be ok or the fault of the person who gets duped?


Because they deliberately and knowingly went seeking partners in an environment where they know everyone's duping everyone else on some level and where they know they don't have the right to demand information such as age (you can bet they won't volunteer it themselves). It's like going into a club blindfolded, getting off with someone who swears they're gorgeous and then complaining when you take off the blindfold and find out you just got off with Rick Waller. LL has taken as many precautions as it can to ensure that no children are in adult areas, and if you have reason to believe you're interacting with a child, you GTFO immediately and report the user. That aside, you have chosen to enter a digital place for a digital experience.

You don't have to share your age, gender, weight or anything else with strangers on the internet. We all know this. It's why we're here, for goodness sake. We don't want people to know who we are, or too much about us. That's fine. But it cuts both ways. If you want to offload on an unknown stranger, you can. If you want to offload on someone whose rl credentials you can check, you look in rl.

Your right not to be pissed off on a personal level does not override someone else's right to guard themselves on the internet.

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Elisheva Sopwith wrote:


Mags Indigo wrote:

If all that determines for you when something is right ot wrong is when they have broken a law - been legally wrong - well any argument I could make would seem silly after that.

 

The analogy was ridiculous because you were equating financial crime with someone pissing you off on a personal level. I demonstrated to you how ridiculous it was by pointing that out. You responded by backpedalling and pretending you were only saying that deliberately going out of your way purely to try to hurt people is wrong. This is a completely different point, and an inane, facile one at that. The analogy was stupid, and it was yours, not mine. As was the intellectual dishonesty.

 

Mags Indigo wrote:

You also keep referring to 'me' - actually I don't do pixel porking or SL 'romances'  


I thought it was obvious that the situations involving 'you' and 'me' were hypothetical in order to demonstrate the points you have been constantly choosing to miss. If I had instead referred to 'person x' and 'person y', would that have made any difference?

Are you able to argue with what I actually said, or is shifting goalposts the only trick you have? Can you argue that people don't have the right to retain privacy on the internet, or can you only complain because I rhetorically referred to you and me to create a hypothetical example?

More intellectual dishonesty. You can't refute what I said. You can only jabber about irrelevant matters of rhetoric. Pathetic.

Mags Indigo wrote:

If anyone wants to see what I actually said and mean they can read back through the number of posts I have made to this thread - I have no intentions of recovering old ground ad infinitum - so I shall now bow out.

 

 

Indeed. They will see you equating financial crime with preserving their privacy on the internet. They will see you squirming when called on this, and pretending instead that you were only trying to say that it's not nice to be horrible to people. They will see me presenting you with a few hypothetical situations, saying 'So suppose I did this to you', and your only recourse being a complaint that I didn't use Jane and John instead.

There's something you should know about me, Mags. I don't care - really, really, really don't care - about losing an argument on the internet. In fact my masochistic side almost likes it. It challenges me, makes me change the way I think, gives me new perspectives, and, if I'm lucky, helps me to rip out someone else in a future debate. It's fun.

What I cannot stand is intellectual laziness and intellectual dishonesty, and that's all you've offered in this exchange.

 

Edited to fix formatting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What I see is someone who has a very different view on interpersonal relationships on the internet/SL than I do. Someone who picks and chooses her points to make what I determine to be rather inane points of her own. My withdrawal from this 'discussion' may be intellectual laziness to you - to me it is actually recognition of the fact that you refuse to see anything but what you want to see written on a screen. Good luck to you, if you call this winning an argument - or indeed me losing one that's fine by me. I know what I have stated many times - even if you constantly choose not to see it. I am in awe of your ability to do that.

Now I really am out of here.

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Mags Indigo wrote:

Someone who picks and chooses her points to make what I determine to be rather inane points of her own.


Which points of yours did I omit? What inane points have I made?

 

 


Mags Indigo wrote:

My withdrawal from this 'discussion' may be intellectual laziness to you


More intellectual dishonesty. I never thought you had left the discussion (why should I think that?). I made it very clear that I think you are intellectually lazy and dishonest not because you (didn't) leave the debate, but because you made a bad analogy, then pretended you had said something else entirely different instead, and because you avoid the real argument - the issue of privacy on the internet - to make a worthless jabber about rhetoric instead.

So tell me. At what point in my relationship with someone do I lose my right to withhold personal information?

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"So tell me. At what point in my relationship with someone do I lose my right to withhold personal information?"

You have the right to withold personal information.  And you can be honest about it.  So if asked about your age,  or sex, etc. when about to embark on a very personal "one on one" relationship in SL or RL for that matter, its always your option to say "sorry, that's not what SL means to me...I don't divulge this information".  But to lie and mislead when you know a) the other person, having asked is misled by a lie and b) the other person embarks on the relationship based on a lie, that is sociopathic behavior in my opinion, in RL or SL. 

I, personally, would never blend RL and SL, but perhaps its a generational thing.  I have met people who have met and successfully married via SL.  I've also heard of disaster stories when SL and RL blend.  SL is for role players, pranksters, hopeful romantics, hopeless romantics, educators, 3d creation artists, corporations,  yaddiyaddiyadda.  So to take the stance that its wrong to be offended or angry or hurt or whatever for being duped in SL in a very personal relationship, is unrealistic and wrong.

No one in naive enough to think this place isn't heaven for psychopathic individuals.  It still doesn't make the person who is hurt or angry about being lied to in SL stupid, naive or wrong for expecting or hoping people acted more humanely, regardless of the persons identity being known to them.

 

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

"But to lie and mislead when you know a) the other person, having asked is misled by a lie

 

So I lose my right to withhold personal information if someone asks me to provide it?


Nacy Nightfire wrote: b) the other person embarks on the relationship based on a lie, that is sociopathic behavior in my opinion, in RL or SL. 

If the other person embarks on a digital relationship in a digital world, then a digital experience is all they have the right to request. They know they can't see you, they know they haven't met you and they have freely chosen to experience this in a virtual world. They need to take a little personal responsibility and stop going into mystery worlds, then blaming everyone else when they don't get exactly what they want. IF THEY WANT YOUR RL INFORMATION, THEY SHOULD BE IN RL.

With no disrespect meant, I also think that it is obscene to say that those who wish to maintain their own virtual life as they wish, and their privacy, are sociopaths. If anything, the sociopaths are those who go on the internet with a sense of entitlement that means they think they can strip others of their privacy at will.

 


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

No one in naive enough to think this place isn't heaven for psychopathic individuals.  It still doesn't make the person who is hurt or angry about being lied to in SL stupid, naive or wrong for expecting or hoping people acted more humanely, regardless of the persons identity being known to them.

 

I have to disagree. I think it is monumentally naive and stupid to go into sl and expect everyone to be honest with you about who they are. Being hurt or angry doesn't automatically make one a victim.

All of this, from you and Mags, basically comes down to the idea that we should have the right to strip internet people of their rl privacy when we feel it appropriate in order to protect ourselves from the risks we knew damn well we were taking the minute we logged on.

 

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