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Ryann Adder

How would you react to finding out your partner is not really the sex of their avatar?

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So many flavors of SL partnerships, some casual and fun, some serious and RL... and everything in-between. For me the question is How would I feel if someone I loved and trusted lied to me — this big lie? The answer: I would be devastated.

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I agree with Ishtara's comment here.

SL is a ROLEPLAYING game, who you choose to hang with or who you choose to love and befriend is the avi and the RP ability of the player.

The first time I spoke about friendship on SL forums being something to take with a grain of salt, there were some SL purists who has never known SL to be a ROLEPLAYING game and so gullible that they believed everything that their SL friends said.

Well, guess I got some nice beachfront property in Antartica I can sell them for some easy money. :matte-motes-evil:

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

Yes, false RL background stories can be a huge disappointment when the truth comes out. But aside from one relationship in the past, I never have that problem, because I usually don't know any RL details about my SL friends in the first place and never bother to ask. Aside from very general information such as "I live in Masa... Massashu... Massachutes... Vermont and have a Persian cat that looks like Winston Churchill", that is. If people tell me such things unasked, I take them with a truckload of salt. I guess I've reached the point where I simply don't care anymore, since I'll never meet them in RL anyway.

And when it's like that I'm sure it works very well.

 I'm very lucky in the people I have befriended in SL - they have mostly turned out to be even nicer people in RL (when RL has become involved) than their avatar could ever portray in SL - maybe not as young, thin or glam - but definitely lovely, intelligent, funny people.

I never ask for peoples RL information in SL - apart from part of the globe/timezone they come from. I do however find that many people just love to give you RL details without being asked - and that's what I will never understand - why volunteer 'RL info@ that turns out to be totally false. If you don't want people to know your RL - just say so - their choice after that. But people really do seem to go to great lengths to invent very detailed backstories that they deliver to other people in nice neat little chunks - drawing them in to a web of 'fantasy' (lies) without any pressure ever being put on them to do so. I can only presume they get some sort of kick out of making other people believe something that is actually utterly false.

I say it over and over again - SL is terrific mainly because it allows us to be whatever we want to be and do things we can't in RL - I'd never change that, and I surely never pry to break that fantasy. But some people do seem to actually get their rocks off deceiving (or trying to) other people with RL fairytales. Hence (as I said above) why I'd never stray beyond friendly interaction in SL.

Not everyone has your straight-forward way of seeing things Ishtara - mores the pity.

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Mags Indigo wrote:


I never ask for peoples RL information in SL - apart from part of the globe/timezone they come from.
I do however find that many people just love to give you RL details without being asked - and that's what I will never understand - why volunteer 'RL info@ that turns out to be totally false. If you don't want people to know your RL - just say so - their choice after that. But people really do seem to go to great lengths to invent very detailed backstories that they deliver to other people in nice neat little chunks - drawing them in to a web of 'fantasy' (lies) without any pressure ever being put on them to do so. I can only presume they get some sort of kick out of making other people believe something that is actually utterly false.

I say it over and over again - SL is terrific mainly because it allows us to be whatever we want to be and do things we can't in RL - I'd never change that, and I surely never pry to break that fantasy. But some people do seem to actually get their rocks off deceiving (or trying to) other people with RL fairytales. Hence (as I said above) why I'd never stray beyond friendly interaction in SL.

Not everyone has your straight-forward way of seeing things Ishtara - mores the pity.

Mags, this is about as mixed as a message can get. Too many air quoted double entendres and thinly veiled negative judgment to suggest the level of insouciance you imply in bold above. Just letting you know in case you really aren't aware of how you sound on subjects like this...

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Kascha Matova wrote:


Mags Indigo wrote:


I never ask for peoples RL information in SL - apart from part of the globe/timezone they come from.
I do however find that many people just love to give you RL details without being asked - and that's what I will never understand - why volunteer 'RL info@ that turns out to be totally false. If you don't want people to know your RL - just say so - their choice after that. But people really do seem to go to great lengths to invent very detailed backstories that they deliver to other people in nice neat little chunks - drawing them in to a web of 'fantasy' (lies) without any pressure ever being put on them to do so. I can only presume they get some sort of kick out of making other people believe something that is actually utterly false.

I say it over and over again - SL is terrific mainly because it allows us to be whatever we want to be and do things we can't in RL - I'd never change that, and I surely never pry to break that fantasy. But some people do seem to actually get their rocks off deceiving (or trying to) other people with RL fairytales. Hence (as I said above) why I'd never stray beyond friendly interaction in SL.

Not everyone has your straight-forward way of seeing things Ishtara - mores the pity.

Mags, this is about as mixed as a message can get. Too many air quoted double entendres and thinly veiled negative judgment to suggest the level of insouciance you imply in bold above. Just letting you know in case you really aren't aware of how you sound on subjects like this...

How I sound on 'subjects like this' actually I don't see any mixed message at all - either don't tell me anything or tell me the truth - see no mixed message.

I don't ask for RL information so I constantly wonder why people insist on sharing RL information that isn't true. If that upsets people - I'm getting used to it but frankly I'm a wee bit tired of people equating SL roleplaying with telling untruths about their RL when such information is neither requested or wanted. Frankly I find it at least drama hunting and at it's worst downright dishonest.

Sorry if that offends or annoys people but it is actually how I feel and think and as such is what I will continue to say.

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Mags Indigo wrote:


Kascha Matova wrote:


Mags Indigo wrote:


I never ask for peoples RL information in SL - apart from part of the globe/timezone they come from.
I do however find that many people just love to give you RL details without being asked - and that's what I will never understand - why volunteer 'RL info@ that turns out to be totally false. If you don't want people to know your RL - just say so - their choice after that. But people really do seem to go to great lengths to invent very detailed backstories that they deliver to other people in nice neat little chunks - drawing them in to a web of 'fantasy' (lies) without any pressure ever being put on them to do so. I can only presume they get some sort of kick out of making other people believe something that is actually utterly false.

I say it over and over again - SL is terrific mainly because it allows us to be whatever we want to be and do things we can't in RL - I'd never change that, and I surely never pry to break that fantasy. But some people do seem to actually get their rocks off deceiving (or trying to) other people with RL fairytales. Hence (as I said above) why I'd never stray beyond friendly interaction in SL.

Not everyone has your straight-forward way of seeing things Ishtara - mores the pity.

Mags, this is about as mixed as a message can get. Too many air quoted double entendres and thinly veiled negative judgment to suggest the level of insouciance you imply in bold above. Just letting you know in case you really aren't aware of how you sound on subjects like this...

How I sound on 'subjects like this' actually I don't see any mixed message at all - either don't tell me anything or tell me the truth - see no mixed message.

I don't ask for RL information so I constantly wonder why people insist on sharing RL information that isn't true. If that upsets people - I'm getting used to it but frankly I'm a wee bit tired of people equating SL roleplaying with telling untruths about their RL when such information is neither requested or wanted. Frankly I find it at least drama hunting and at it's worst downright dishonest.

Sorry if that offends or annoys people but it is actually how I feel and think and as such is what I will continue to say.

What's there to be tired of Mags? Nobody needs to check with you, me, or anybody else before they equate SL roleplaying with whatever they feel like equating it with. Do you feel the fatiguing effects of other people's definition of SL roleplaying before or after you praise SL for the freedom of expression it allows and swear you'd never change it?

If some people reinvent themselves at both levels of the spectrum that's their decision. You actually have no idea why they've decided to approach SL interaction that way or if it was about drawing others into a web of crap or whatever Satanic technicolor nightmare they supposedly end up in when not told the truth by an SL player. Maybe thats their muse. A different person entirely - a pen name only more so. Or maybe they really are just jerks. Both are possible, and much more, however you choose to see nothing but negative.

Personally, if someone goes to lengths to make themselves something they think I want, and I am in control of how much I have riding on it being accurate, I'm going to love them for the effort and not be drawn into a web of anything I'm not enjoying being stuck in. It's happened here numerous times and the thing that confused and hurt me most was their anguished need to confess when they have, as if they did anything other than try to make me happy. People do that all the time in RL. Try to be something more than themelves for somebody not because they want to hurt them, but because they want to make them happy. Embellished realities that seek common ground have pulled as many people off ledges as put them on. When I got here in '07, I was one of those people, and I'm thankful for what was done to give me what I needed, and why. It is not always about hurting someone.

Yet that never comes up as a possibility in your list, and that omission is a choice you made, but have not owned in any of your words here.

Sorry if that offends or annoys you. Maybe you really don't ask for RL information despite the fact that you speak very badly of anyone whose unbending adherence to its realism falls short, but that's really all there is to it. It's a mixed message to at least one person who reads your posts with interest, so I thought I'd bring it up. Do with that what you will, but someone I cherish a great deal here in SL fits into this category, and even after finding out what was really what, my feelings have only increased. So I'll continue to disagree vehemently with any who would tag him as garbage without knowing.

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Kascha Matova wrote:

What's there to be tired of Mags? Nobody needs to check with you, me, or anybody else before they equate SL roleplaying with whatever they feel like equating it with. Do you feel the fatiguing effects of other people's definition of SL roleplaying before or after you praise SL for the freedom of expression it allows and swear you'd never change it?

If some people reinvent themselves at both levels of the spectrum that's their decision. You actually have no idea why they've decided to approach SL interaction that way or if it was about drawing others into a web of crap or whatever Satanic technicolor nightmare they supposedly end up in when not told the truth by an SL player. Maybe thats their muse. A different person entirely - a pen name only more so. Or maybe they really are just jerks. Both are possible, and much more, however you
choose
to see nothing but negative.

Personally, if someone goes to lengths to make themselves something they think I want, and I am in control of how much I have riding on it being accurate, I'm going to love them for the effort and not be drawn into a web of anything I'm not enjoying being stuck in. It's happened here numerous times and the thing that confused and hurt me most was their anguished need to confess when they have, as if they did anything other than try to make me happy. People do that all the time in RL. Try to be something more than themelves for somebody not because they want to hurt them, but because they want to make them happy.
Embellished realities that seek common ground have pulled as many people off ledges as put them on. When I got here in '07, I was one of those people, and I'm thankful for what was done to give me what I needed, and why. It is
not
always about hurting someone.

Yet that never comes up as a possibility in your list, and that omission is a choice you made, but have not owned in any of your words here.

Sorry if that offends or annoys you. Maybe you really don't ask for RL information despite the fact that you speak very badly of anyone whose unbending adherence to its realism falls short, but that's really all there is to it. It's a mixed message to at least one person who reads your posts with interest, so I thought I'd bring it up. Do with that what you will, but someone I cherish a great deal here in SL fits into this category, and even after finding out what was really what, my feelings have only increased. So I'll continue to disagree vehemently with any who would tag him as garbage without knowing.


I always have to bite my tongue when someone I have an affinity for is getting a bit of bother here. I usuallly let them fend for themselves because usually they're perfectly capable of doing so and having me butt in will just embarass them. That's certainly true in this case; it's not likely that I'll come up with anything to say that would be an improvement on Mags. But she's not here right now, I am, and Kascha I think you are way off the beam here.

 You seem to be saying  any sort of RP/Fakery/BS is fine as long as the person who is doing it makes you feel good and keeps you happy, keeps him as 'someone they think you want', that's cool with you. Okay fine. It's completely uncool with me. I'm not condemning you, or he, I'm just saying that is not for me. I didn't see Mags condemning it either (I tried to read most of the posts and if I missed something I'm sure I'll find out about it)

 She doesn't like faking. I don't like faking. Perhaps there's a really good reason why someone should make up an entire RL life history to help someone in SL (which would be the only possible explanation of your argument with Mags). If so, I'd  withdraw my "I don't like faking' comment for that particular example. I'm not saying you aren't perfectly right in your approach to Second Life. I AM saying that's not the path I prefer. 

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JamesAir wrote:

QUOTE

Personally, if someone goes to lengths to make themselves something they think I want, and I am in control of how much I have riding on it being accurate, I'm going to love them for the effort and not be drawn into a web of anything I'm not enjoying being stuck in. It's happened here numerous times and the thing that confused and hurt me most was their anguished need to confess when they have, as if they did anything other than try to make me happy.

People do that all the time in RL. Try to be something more than themselves for somebody not because they want to hurt them, but because they want to make them happy.

END QUOTE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But whatever their intent is to purposely mis-represent what they are in real life, the fact is it often does hurts others. It is also a purposeful intent to lie, otherwise their response to questions would be simply I don’t tell about real life, not to invent a false one. Obviously if these liars only form casual friendships, who gets hurt right? No one. But when these liars form intimate relationships with others, that’s where regardless of their intent they will hurt others with their lies.

You are confused about their anguished need to confess? I’m not. They simply get hooked themselves into real feelings for the other and KNOW they have to come clean to move this real relationship forward. Also, the liars at some point realize they are dealing with a real person and can’t live with the fact the are lying to them daily. It’s hard to lie daily to a person you have actual feelings for forever unless you are a complete scumbag.

You think this is done to make others happy? I doubt such people are that altruistic. It’s much simpler than that. They lie to get what they seek. For example, a married man or woman knows most single persons looking for potential mates would balk at online relationships with them, so they lie about being married. A elderly man or woman over 60 knows a 20 something would have no interest in them, so they lie about being under 30. A man wants to have a lot of women as intimate friends, he knows many women don’t trust men, so he pretends to be a real life female. A gay woman wants to experience straight women sexually in second life, so she pretends to be a man in real life and SL. A gay man pretends to be a woman in second life and RL etc etc… The goals are never about the happiness of others. It’s just a selfish desire to lie to get what they want.

I'm not speaking in hypotheticals or generalities. That's usually a great clue that someone has decided to believe what they want to believe and refuses to take exceptions into consideration, prefering instead to claim they simply don't exist.

I don't do that. I know, for a fact, that "their" goals are not always a selfish desire to get what they want. Because I have the pleasure of having met someone who was able to read enough about me through our interactions in SL to tell pretty accurately where I was, what I was going through, what I came here hoping to find, and what I needed to hear and see to get myself right again. He also decided at some point through those interactions that somewhere inside the person I had become was somebody he knew was worth saving, or helping if he could.

And he made a decision to be exactly what I really needed someone to be. No matter how that "what" evolved.

Eventually, he did tell me how much of the experience he related to me were actually his, how much was embellished, and how much of it was borrowed from others when it fit. And I respect and appreciate the reasons he felt he needed to do that, and what he feels for me that made it mandatory that he did that. But as I stated earlier, I love him for what he did and how important he made my situation and peace of mind (that's not all I love him for but you get the point).

There are plenty of examples in SL, as in RL of manipulators doing what they want to accomplish their own aims and for no other reason. I never claimed otherwise - in fact, it's the surety I'm hearing from you and others that everyone in question is a despicable human being that reminds me of that old story about the woman rescuing the snake from the cold, getting bitten, and acting surprised afterwards. I mean why would anyone come here with transparency as a dealbreaking priority?

I'm not concerned with whether or not "some" are no good. My concern is when it becomes "all" are no good. Because that's bull, and I've seen that it is.

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Kascha Matova wrote:

 
I'm not concerned with whether or not "some" are no good. My concern is when it becomes "all" are no good. Because that's bull, and I've seen that it is.

 

Okay. I'll accept that you found a way that it worked. I will continue to think that to be an exception and a rare exception at that; rare enough so that "all" is still the right word.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:


Kascha Matova wrote:

What's there to be tired of Mags? Nobody needs to check with you, me, or anybody else before they equate SL roleplaying with whatever they feel like equating it with. Do you feel the fatiguing effects of other people's definition of SL roleplaying before or after you praise SL for the freedom of expression it allows and swear you'd never change it?

If some people reinvent themselves at both levels of the spectrum that's their decision. You actually have no idea why they've decided to approach SL interaction that way or if it was about drawing others into a web of crap or whatever Satanic technicolor nightmare they supposedly end up in when not told the truth by an SL player. Maybe thats their muse. A different person entirely - a pen name only more so. Or maybe they really are just jerks. Both are possible, and much more, however you
choose
to see nothing but negative.

Personally, if someone goes to lengths to make themselves something they think I want, and I am in control of how much I have riding on it being accurate, I'm going to love them for the effort and not be drawn into a web of anything I'm not enjoying being stuck in. It's happened here numerous times and the thing that confused and hurt me most was their anguished need to confess when they have, as if they did anything other than try to make me happy. People do that all the time in RL. Try to be something more than themelves for somebody not because they want to hurt them, but because they want to make them happy.
Embellished realities that seek common ground have pulled as many people off ledges as put them on. When I got here in '07, I was one of those people, and I'm thankful for what was done to give me what I needed, and why. It is
not
always about hurting someone.

Yet that never comes up as a possibility in your list, and that omission is a choice you made, but have not owned in any of your words here.

Sorry if that offends or annoys you. Maybe you really don't ask for RL information despite the fact that you speak very badly of anyone whose unbending adherence to its realism falls short, but that's really all there is to it. It's a mixed message to at least one person who reads your posts with interest, so I thought I'd bring it up. Do with that what you will, but someone I cherish a great deal here in SL fits into this category, and even after finding out what was really what, my feelings have only increased. So I'll continue to disagree vehemently with any who would tag him as garbage without knowing.


I always have to bite my tongue when someone I have an affinity for is getting a bit of bother here. I usuallly let them fend for themselves because usually they're perfectly capable of doing so and having me butt in will just embarass them. That's certainly true in this case; it's not likely that I'll come up with anything to say that would be an improvement on Mags. But she's not here right now, I am, and Kascha I think you are way off the beam here.

 You seem to be saying  any sort of RP/Fakery/BS is fine as long as the person who is doing it makes you feel good and keeps you happy, keeps him as 'someone they think you want', that's cool with you. Okay fine. It's completely uncool with me. I'm not condemning you, or he, I'm just saying that is not for me. I didn't see Mags condemning it either (I tried to read most of the posts and if I missed something I'm sure I'll find out about it)

 She doesn't like faking. I don't like faking. Perhaps there's a really good reason why someone should make up an entire RL life history to help someone in SL (which would be the only possible explanation of your argument with Mags). If so, I'd  withdraw my "I don't like faking' comment for that particular example. I'm not saying you aren't perfectly right in your approach to Second Life. I AM saying that's not the path I prefer. 

Is that what I seem to be saying? Point out the place where I made any baseline judgment, whatsoever about what is "fine" and what is "not fine" as a rule.

See, that's where the morality train always goes off the tracks and if there's one thing I can't stand it's people trying to offload their own hangups and sense of entitlement onto me. The reason you think I'm so "off the beam" is because you're reading what you want to read instead of what I said. My entire point was that nobody has the right to define anybody else's SL, and there is no "all" of anything. As I told another poster, generalization is the realm of the intellectually lazy and I won't deal with it. If you don't want to take the time to truly investigate the motivations of a person in doing some action then don't claim insight later or talk about how important such motivations are. Just say you have no idea why people do what, because you don't, and you chose not to, and leave it at that.

You don't see any condemnation because you feel the same way she does. If you had any objectivity at all on the subject, you would see loaded words for what they are without feeling any need to stick up for anyone. You would see what I mean if I repeatedly wasted time wondering aloud what those hung up on ethics and morals "get their rocks off on" . That doesn't happen because I don't begrudge you the right to your viewpoint and I don't have to demean you to consider you. Nor do I have to skirt your individuality because I lack the flexibility to deal with the fact that you might not fit into a box I need you to be in.

So you know, yes. That's exactly what happened. Someone I dated early in my SL time embellished enough life experiences to encourage me that I could survive mine at a time when I was so unable to believe I wasn't alone that I thought living my life as a cartoon was as good a plan as any. In fact, I don't know where I would be right now if it wasn't for him selling me on that, because nobody else could. I had a lot of slack jawed moments of confusion when the truth came out, but I was in a much stronger place when it did, and I had the maturity and compassion to separate what he did from why he did it.

Now I'll give you that you said in that case, you make an exception to people like him being Satan. "Others" never allowed for him to exist, while still others try to tell me he didn't. And so to people who would lump him into some group, make the real jerks the majority instead of the minority they are and add him to that majority because they're too lazy to brook any threat to their security blankets, I say screw them all, and I say it directly. It's not always true, and I will sing his praises until the day I drop.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:


Kascha Matova wrote:

 
I'm not concerned with whether or not "some" are no good. My concern is when it becomes "all" are no good. Because that's bull, and I've seen that it is.

 

Okay. I'll accept that you found a way that it worked. I will continue to think that to be an exception and a rare exception at that; rare enough so that "all" is still the right word.

And in keeping with my other response to you on this subject, screw anybody who allows the individual to fall through the cracks in their zeal to embrace the big picture. As common practice, but twice over where my friends are concerned.

I keep my word. I will not begrudge you the option of doing so. But I will also exercise my right to make this the last conversation we ever have, because to dismiss him again above once I've told you what he's meant to me is to spit in my face as well as his.

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Kascha Matova wrote:
Mags, this is about as mixed as a message can get. Too many air quoted double entendres and thinly veiled negative judgment to suggest the level of insouciance you imply in bold above. Just letting you know in case you really aren't aware of how you sound on subjects like this...

How I sound on 'subjects like this' actually I don't see any mixed message at all - either don't tell me anything or tell me the truth - see no mixed message.

I don't ask for RL information so I constantly wonder why people insist on sharing RL information that isn't true. If that upsets people - I'm getting used to it but frankly I'm a wee bit tired of people equating SL roleplaying with telling untruths about their RL when such information is neither requested or wanted. Frankly I find it at least drama hunting and at it's worst downright dishonest.

Sorry if that offends or annoys people but it is actually how I feel and think and as such is what I will continue to say.

What's there to be tired of Mags? Nobody needs to check with you, me, or anybody else before they equate SL roleplaying with whatever they feel like equating it with. Do you feel the fatiguing effects of other people's definition of SL roleplaying before or after you praise SL for the freedom of expression it allows and swear you'd never change it?

If some people reinvent themselves at both levels of the spectrum that's their decision. You actually have no idea why they've decided to approach SL interaction that way or if it was about drawing others into a web of crap or whatever Satanic technicolor nightmare they supposedly end up in when not told the truth by an SL player. Maybe thats their muse. A different person entirely - a pen name only more so. Or maybe they really are just jerks. Both are possible, and much more, however you
choose
to see nothing but negative.

Personally, if someone goes to lengths to make themselves something they think I want, and I am in control of how much I have riding on it being accurate, I'm going to love them for the effort and not be drawn into a web of anything I'm not enjoying being stuck in. It's happened here numerous times and the thing that confused and hurt me most was their anguished need to confess when they have, as if they did anything other than try to make me happy. People do that all the time in RL. Try to be something more than themelves for somebody not because they want to hurt them, but because they want to make them happy.
Embellished realities that seek common ground have pulled as many people off ledges as put them on. When I got here in '07, I was one of those people, and I'm thankful for what was done to give me what I needed, and why. It is
not
always about hurting someone.

Yet that never comes up as a possibility in your list, and that omission is a choice you made, but have not owned in any of your words here.

Sorry if that offends or annoys you. Maybe you really don't ask for RL information despite the fact that you speak very badly of anyone whose unbending adherence to its realism falls short, but that's really all there is to it. It's a mixed message to at least one person who reads your posts with interest, so I thought I'd bring it up. Do with that what you will, but someone I cherish a great deal here in SL fits into this category, and even after finding out what was really what, my feelings have only increased. So I'll continue to disagree vehemently with any who would tag him as garbage without knowing.


Kascha Matova wrote:

"What's there to be tired of Mags? Nobody needs to check with you, me, or anybody else before they equate SL roleplaying with whatever they feel like equating it with. Do you feel the fatiguing effects of other people's definition of SL roleplaying before or after you praise SL for the freedom of expression it allows and swear you'd never change it? "

I highlight the above because to me this underlies the dialogues we tend to have. By 'tired' I meant fed up , as in - not especially interested by it anymore - this is a language issue no doubt and I accept blame as  I chose to use the word 'tired' in it's colloquial sense rather than it's dictionary definition sense. How people want to manage their own roleplay in SL is entirely up to them - it is when people deliberately deceive people with RL 'lies' for their own ends that I constantly speak of - and you constantly seem not to see that. Perhaps that is also my fault as I obviously do not have the skills in english to make myself understood to you in this way.

I'd like to quote something you said to Dillon (when she misguidedly felt the need to intercede on my behalf as a friend)

Kascha Matova wrote: <heavily snipped>

"The reason you think I'm so "off the beam" is because you're reading what you want to read instead of what I said. My entire point was that nobody has the right to define anybody else's SL,"

 I agree completely with this statement - the first part... "The reason you think I'm so "off the beam" is because you're reading what you want to read instead of what I said." I believe applies to how you approach my posts. The second par actually is in total line with what I hold to be true..."My entire point was that nobody has the right to define anybody else's SL," This is precisely the point I keep making - for people to try and define how others live their SL by using lies and deceit to manipulate them is in fact what I most dislike.

Now I rest the argument - if that is what it is - here as otherwise I suspect we shall just keep talking at cross purposes. You obviously have had a very positive experience with someone in SL who became for you what you needed, was sensitive enough to do this - and then honest enough to admit to it when the time was right. If you believe that all my posts have been critical of someone with such moral fiber - then all I can say is - we really do speak totally different languages.

I wish you and your friend well, as I do to all those who enjoy their SL without the need to make other suffer for their fun.

 (Edited for typos - I think I got most of them)

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From Mags:

I'd like to quote something you said to Dillon (when she misguidedly felt the need to intercede on my behalf as a friend)

Guidance is something I can always use more of:matte-motes-bored:.

I'm replying to your post since I've been officially struck off any conversation with Kascha. I do believe that what happened in her instance (something literally life-changing, from the way she describes it) has influenced her so profoundly that she sees any criticism of that type of behavior as a personal attack. Hell, maybe it is. I know you didn't intend it that way, nor did I. We both would have a tendency to admire anyone who made a huge positive difference is the life of someone in need of positivity. We both think making up RP stories with intent to deceive is a bad way to go. The fact that it was exactly the right way (or at least one of the right ways) to go in one particular instance doesn't change my opinion. I'm fully capable of realizing there can be exceptions.

And for the record; I spit in nobody's face.

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I think its pretty universally accepted that no one is as physically attractive as they represent themselves in SL and I think that is a poor analogy for what we are talking about when a person represents themself as being a different sex.

Since the topic is about a "partner" and not a random friend, I would say I'd be mighty annoyed if a partner started out claiming to be male and later disclosed that she was actually female, only deciding to interject "truth" into the roleplay after the relationship was established.  I'd be highly suspect of their motivation to tell the truth only after the relationship got underway.  If this person misrepresented her sex claiming to be helping ME by attempting to be what I they feel I wanted or needed her to be, well that's pretty arrogant.  She ought to stick with the role play  since to what good purpose does later disclosing the truth do to either the trust in the relationship or the supposed good intentions.

Partnership can be many different things, not just virtual romance, but if it's an intimate relationship and either person asks a prospective partner if their partner is male/female in RL at the start, then out of common courtesy they should be told the truth or else their prospective partner should be absolutely clear about their desire never to mix any aspect of RL, including their sexual orientation.  Then they should STICK to that decision, and let their prospective partner person decide if they care either way.   (And, if no one actually asks, but assumes, then they don't have a right to complain afterwards, of course).

And without a doubt there are absolutely malicious people who deceptively misrepresent their sex just for their own devilish amusement.  I've heard these stories from practically everyone I've become friends with in SL.  And it has nothing to do with homophobia.  A friend told me of a game his young female friends enjoyed playing which involved infiltrating male gay clubs and pretending to be gay men and picking guys up for slex and for a laugh.  

Finding out the person has represented themself falsely in this way can make a person, who, even if they can be convinced by their partner that in their partner's questionable wisdom it was for a good reason, feel manipulated.  Not fun.

 edited for clarity...and yet edited AGAIN for clarity

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Dillon Levenque wrote:<snipped>

I'm replying to your post since I've been officially struck off any conversation with Kascha. I do believe that what happened in her instance (something literally life-changing, from the way she describes it) has influenced her so profoundly that she sees any criticism of that type of behavior as a personal attack. Hell, maybe it is. I know you didn't intend it that way, nor did I. We both would have a tendency to admire anyone who made a huge positive difference is the life of someone in need of positivity. We both think making up RP stories with intent to deceive is a bad way to go. The fact that it was exactly the right way (or at least one of the right ways) to go in one particular instance doesn't change my opinion. I'm fully capable of realizing there can be exceptions.

And for the record; I spit in nobody's face.

In my opinion there are exceptions to just about everything but rarely does that make the general rule wrong. What it can do is help us keep in mind that not everything is always as it seems - and that's always a useful lesson to keep in mind - even if the general rule works out to be the 'winning one'  95% of the time.

I believe nothing that anyone tells me in SL until I have built up a decent relationship with them over time - which means (as I don't have all that much time) I rarely get to the stage with people where being lied to has been anything but a minor irritation. I don't know if that makes me lucky or is just evidence that taking things slowly in SL is actually a good idea.

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

I think its pretty universally accepted that no one is as physically attractive as they represent themselves in SL and I think that is a poor analogy for what we are talking about when a person represents themself as being a different sex.

Since the topic is about a "partner" and not a random friend, I would say I'd be mighty annoyed if a partner started out claiming to be male and later disclosed that she was actually female, only deciding to interject "truth" into the roleplay after the relationship was established.  I'd be highly suspect of their motivation to tell the truth only after the relationship got underway.  If this person misrepresented her sex claiming to be helping ME by attempting to be what I they feel I wanted or needed her to be, well that's pretty arrogant.  She ought to stick with the role play  since to what good purpose does later disclosing the truth do to either the trust in the relationship or the supposed good intentions.

Partnership can be many different things, not just virtual romance, but if its an intimate relationship and either person asks a prospective partner if their partner is male/female in RL at the start then out of common courtesy thy should be told the truth or else their prospective partner should be absolutely clear about their desire never to mix any aspect of RL, including their sexual orientation.  Then they should STICK to that decision, and let their prospective partner person decide if they care either way.   (And, if no one actually asks, but assumes, then they don't have a right to complain afterwards, of course).

And without a doubt there are absolutely malicious people who deceptively misrepresent their sex just for their own devilish amusement.  I've heard these stories from practically everyone I've become friends with in SL.  And it has nothing to do with homophobia.  A friend told me of a game his young female friends enjoyed playing a "game"  which involved infiltrating male gay clubs and pretending to be gay men to picking guys up for slex and for a laugh.  

Finding out the person has represented themself falsely in this way can make a person, who, even if they can be convinced by their partner that in their partner's questionable wisdom it was for a good reason, feel manipulated.  Not fun.

 edited for clarity

You have pretty much summed up a lot of what I think, feel and have argued (ineptly I might add) here for some time. There is a distinct difference between RP, having fun pretending to be someone/something else - and having fun at someone else's expense through lies and deception. It's always so much easier to blame the gullible (apologies to said gullible) rather than look at standards of behaviour. 

But that's just my opinion - and apparantly a very flawed one at that.

Sorry if this has associated you with me :smileyindifferent:

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Whatever floats your boat, I guess. But personally, if I were in that situation, I would voice verify, and preferably Skype before getting that far along into the relationship. It's not about looks, it's about honesty.  I guess the way I figure it, I don't hide behind my avatar, so I expect the same from others.

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Mags Indigo wrote:


You have pretty much summed up a lot of what I think, feel and have argued (ineptly I might add) here for some time. There is a distinct difference between RP, having fun pretending to be someone/something else - and having fun at someone else's expense through lies and deception. It's always so much easier to blame the gullible (apologies to said gullible) rather than look at standards of behaviour. 

But that's just my opinion - and apparantly a very flawed one at that.

Sorry if this has associated you with me :smileyindifferent:

I don't find your opinion flawed. It is an opinion, as good as anyone elses.  I also think you probably are better than most people at reading between the lines with the people that you meet, you don't have to psycho-analyse them, you just have an instinct.

In real life and in Second Life even more, it takes me a while to trust people. I was lucky with my first choice of SL partner, because he had a bunch of RL friends who he came into SL with, so he couldn't even attempt to lie to me, even if he'd wanted to,  because he would soon have outed him for him. And with Janelle, I really couldn't have found anyone more trustworthy, open, honest and forthright. But in between the two, I have met a lot of bullsh1ters, deceivers, people who really have gone out of their way to hurt their partners, and it's a shame that the "bad" people you meet can mar SL like a bad apple in a barrel.

Sometimes it's worth taking a chance with someone to feel that rush of excitement when you see their face in a room - but only in RL, even if it turns out they are just another nose-picking, toenail eating, curry addict.

Everyone is flawed. Everyone.

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you wrote:

"You have pretty much summed up a lot of what I think, feel and have argued (ineptly I might add) here for some time. There is a distinct difference between RP, having fun pretending to be someone/something else - and having fun at someone else's expense through lies and deception. It's always so much easier to blame the gullible (apologies to said gullible) rather than look at standards of behaviour. 

But that's just my opinion - and apparantly a very flawed one at that.

Sorry if this has associated you with me **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif" border="0" alt=":smileyindifferent:" title="Smiley Indifferent" />"

 

Your rational and well written post to this thread is what motivated me to chime in here, and I don't see any flaws, so I'm delighted if this has associated me with your views here.  (although I've been called a narcissist - supposedly in "jest" - as well as an a**ole, and a person of spiteful character on one of these threads here a week or so ago when I expressed my personal opinons about theraputic support groups in  in SL, so you may want to disassociate yourself from any association with ME! :matte-motes-agape:

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

you wrote:

"You have pretty much summed up a lot of what I think, feel and have argued (ineptly I might add) here for some time. There is a distinct difference between RP, having fun pretending to be someone/something else - and having fun at someone else's expense through lies and deception. It's always so much easier to blame the gullible (apologies to said gullible) rather than look at standards of behaviour. 

But that's just my opinion - and apparantly a very flawed one at that.

Sorry if this has associated you with me **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif" border="0" alt=":smileyindifferent:" title="Smiley Indifferent" />"

 

Your rational and well written post to this thread is what motivated me to chime in here, and I don't see any flaws, so I'm delighted if this has associated me with your views here.  (although I've been called a narcissist - supposedly in "jest" - as well as an a**ole, and a person of spiteful character on one of these threads here a week or so ago when I expressed my personal opinons about theraputic support groups in  in SL, so you may want to disassociate yourself from any association with ME! :matte-motes-agape:

Nacy, your post made me truly LOL

And to Mags, I got accused of being a "brown-noser" last week, so maybe you should disassociate yourself from me too. (winkey, smiley, tongue out with eyebrows up smiley face)

 

 

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