SL not so welcoming to new residents

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

The OP was saying they were looking at photography sims or certain sims they seen on flickr..

There may have been a pattern of certain types of sims that would have that rule more than others..

They did say the majority of places they went to had that rule.. So they may have been stuck in a certain bubble search..

I don't think they have a good idea of just how big sl really is..

 

ok And that makes a difference how?

There's all different kinds of regions that have that rule. Doesn't make the rule a good one or even desirable.

Well if you do a search for a specific thing, you're more likely to run across regions with the same general rules as all the rest of the same kind. That's to be expected.

Most people really don't have any clue as to how big the grid really is. Sometimes, when they do finally realize it, it can be very overwhelming and  discouraging for someone new. Compared to now, the grid was tiny when I first joined. Mainland only.

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, Chris Nova said:

Look whos trolling. Or griefing? Oh wait, you think they are the same thing 🤣

Sorry. I thought you would get the joke. 

[Ceka Cianci]

12 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

ok And that makes a difference how?

There's all different kinds of regions that have that rule. Doesn't make the rule a good one or even desirable.

Well if you do a search for a specific thing, you're more likely to run across regions with the same general rules as all the rest of the same kind. That's to be expected.

Most people really don't have any clue as to how big the grid really is. Sometimes, when they do finally realize it, it can be very overwhelming and  discouraging for someone new. Compared to now, the grid was tiny when I first joined. Mainland only.

It makes a difference as to how many sims they may have came across that used that rule vs the ones that didn't, which lead to their final decision the leave..

I wasn't arguing with you on anything, I was just putting out another possible reason that they may have only seen a majority of those types of sims vs the ones that don't use that rule.

[Silent Mistwalker]

12 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

It makes a difference as to how many sims they may have came across that used that rule vs the ones that didn't, which lead to their final decision the leave..

I wasn't arguing with you on anything, I was just putting out another possible reason that they may have only seen a majority of those types of sims vs the ones that don't use that rule.

 

Sorry if I gave you the impression I thought you were arguing. I'm just trying to understand what you're driving at. lol

Well yeah it makes that one difference. If you search for photography, that's what is going to come up but if you search for scenery you'll get different results with different region settings. But that's not where I was going.

It doesn't matter what the search terms are, you are going to find at least a few regions that don't allow under 30 days, which really and truly, is too long for new accounts. No new person is going to want to have to wait a whole month before exploring a particular region. They're either going to give up or look for some place that will let them in. And if they don't find admittance, they will leave. I know if I were still in my 20s and had that happen to me, I'd be off somewhere else looking for something that isn't so standoffish or anti-social.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[animats]

On a related note, a common experience in SL is going someplace where there are a number of avatars standing around, not moving, not talking, and they won't respond to you. This is upsetting to new users.

Sometimes they're bots. Sometimes they're AFK. Sometimes they're playing Tiny Empires.

Now, this seems to be mostly a problem with Linden-run safe hubs. It's not a problem with the Firestorm new user island, or New Residents Inc, or Caledon Oxbridge. Those are not default dumping grounds for teleport failures and region restarts.

What happens when the region you're in restarts may need a rethink. Right now, you get teleported to a "safe hub". That's fine. But you're not supposed to stay there.

Maybe the place to which avatars get teleported on region failure should be a room in a safe hub full of teleporters to elsewhere. A mini Portal Park, like the one at Firestorm Help Island. That provides some encouragement to move on.

Avatars which do nothing at a Linden safe hub for an extended period should be placed on a seat in a waiting room. Provide a few rows of airport waiting room furniture. That makes it clear who's inactive. It's a custom to not bother people in waiting rooms, so this makes sense socially. It's harmless to the avatar, and not annoying. If you go away while logged in, you find that your avatar has taken a seat in the waiting room. Reasonable enough.

A Linden experience can handle the mechanics of that.

Suggested avatar waiting room. Please take a seat.

[Ceka Cianci]

1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

 

Sorry if I gave you the impression I thought you were arguing. I'm just trying to understand what you're driving at. lol

Well yeah it makes that one difference. If you search for photography, that's what is going to come but but if you search for scenery you'll get different results with different region settings. But that's not where I was going.

It doesn't matter what the search terms are, you are going to find at least a few regions that don't allow under 30 days, which really and truly, is too long for new accounts. No new person is going to want to have to wait a whole month before exploring a particular region. They're either going to give up or look for some place that will let them in. And if they don't find admittance, they will leave. I know if I were still in my 20s and had that happen to me, I'd be off somewhere else looking for something that isn't so standoffish or anti-social.

There is a lot of reasons retention is low and always has been.. They were losing around 80% a day even back in the boom in the mid to upper 2000's.

The biggest reason they are probably not holding today is, the lack of this whole thing not being user friendly, in a world that has gotten impatient and wants everything now and  more user friendly.

If LL wants to figure something out in this area, Then they need to find a way without stripping property rights from paying land owners for people that don't have the patience to stick around..

That 30 day rule that some use, I'm willing to bet isn't at the top of the list of reasons people are leaving..

I wouldn't go chopping at the bricks in the foundation because of a leak in the roof.

[Chris Corvinus]

I think it really comes down to when a new person wants to visit nice sims they have seen elsewhere (flickr)...and can't. A lot of people just tossed her frustration aside and that seems to be the only answer: oh well. She did as much research (lets be honest...A LOT is outdated or just completely irrelevant) as she could, watched tutorials, and still couldn't enjoy what she wanted to do in SL...which is a huge issue. 

There was another thread on how to retain new people and the youtubers video was more of confusion than anything. Is that what you expect new people to endure for a solid 30 days??? LL wants people join but what is there to do for new people when youre banned from a lot of places for 30 days? As a new person, its not that inviting at all and youre just gonna get bored...like this guy. Or just leave like the OP.

 

[Ashley Darkheart]

12 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

the problem is... in itself SL isn't newbie friendly... no matter a bom bento blingy new toy for newcommers. Make this time sure there are clothes and accesoires for it....

There has to come a serious amount of new regions where newcommers have to stay till they manage to proove they can excecute the basic skills in SL. .. not just rezz a plywood box, but actually rezz two or more.. perhaps dock that experiences to badges !!(other thread) that give access to more complicated areas of SL.
Give this GAME goals for newbies, they can't handle freedom ( many of us came from a total different SL before 2010, can't compare that anymore)

Patch said the Moles have been going to other games, like Roblox, too see how they treat newcomers, they are planning on changing the newcomer experience, the new mesh avi is just a part of it

[Chris Corvinus]

Just now, Tori Nova said:

Patch said the Moles have been going to other games, like Roblox, too see how they treat newcomers, they are planning on changing the newcomer experience, the new mesh avi is just a part of it

That’s nice but the experience itself has to change for at least a month duration. Much more informative, places that are actually newbie-friendly, more things to do, etc etc. They need to let new people know that you can’t jump right in and start exploring. It’s not like how it was. A new mesh avi isn’t gonna cut it. 

[Ceka Cianci]

I've made two new alts in the past 6 months and never ran into any sim or place not letting me stay or enter because of my avatars age..

 That's the experience I've had with it.. It's gonna be different for everyone I'm sure.. I just don't think it's an every new user thing that happens is all..

I don't recall a lot of these threads myself, but I could be wrong..

 

 

[Alwin Alcott]

2 minutes ago, Tori Nova said:

Patch said the Moles have been going to other games, like Roblox, too see how they treat newcomers, they are planning on changing the newcomer experience, the new mesh avi is just a part of it

the biggest problem is .. those games are not like SL and totally uncomparable in learning curves.
btw... LL made so many starteravis and changes ... nearly all half finished and left behind... have a look at the avatar mess in your library folders.

SL is something that needs users that get the virus of interest, others won't be at home here.  I said in one of my first posts in this thread we can't compare the old days with now, but one thing that is really needed... interest of the new player, find things out and experiment with the tools provided. If they don't, it will be one big disapointment.
 

[MoiraKathleen]

Do we actually know the percentage of regions or areas which have an age-limit restriction (which may not necessarily be a 30 day restriction) ?    When I was a new member, I only remember 1 place of the many places I went which had an age-limit restriction.  I would tend to think - or at least hope - that the number of places with an age-limit restriction is in the minority - especially for places in the Destination Guide.  

Edited July 10, 2021 by MoiraKathleen
added missing word

[colleen Criss]

16 hours ago, Nanuk Fyrewik said:

Thank you all. Yes, I did get a Linden Home. I literally read everything I could get my hands on before I joined just so I wouldn't be clueless.

I've deleted my account now so no need to keep replying, but I thank you and appreciate that you've replied.

SL is the most toxic environment it's ever been my misfortune to experience, I'm sorry to say.

I am so sorry she left so quickly ! SO much to do and see before 30 days . She didn't take that into consideration and so far our replies did not really point that out on the whole.  So I feel like it's been a fail fail all round. I never gave the 30 thing a second thought tbh ever because there was SO much more to find to do.

[Alwin Alcott]

1 minute ago, colleen Criss said:

She didn't take that into consideration and so far our replies did not really point that out on the whole

she didn't come to get replies to help her.

[Noelle Delaunay]

I still remember slightly how I started 15 years ago, when I was a fresh user and had the world map open, looking out for green dots to find people. I can't remember if I was guided this way or if I did this by myself.

In any case you look at it and you would think.. well damn, that's a pretty lame way of trying to meet people. And today I revisit orientation isle and it says "Try the World Map under the World menu to find where people congregate." I mean, you don't need to go looking at Roblox to see how they get new users to stay if randomly clicking the World Map is still the way to go 15 years later. What happened in these 15 years that today you aren't able to search for, let's just say "club" and don't see easily without opening the map how many users there are currently present at each result? I hate sounding so negative, but whaaaat the f***?

Edit: but to say something positive as well, Orientation Island looks really pretty.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Noelle Delaunay

[Ren Toxx]

11 minutes ago, colleen Criss said:

I am so sorry she left so quickly! [...] She didn't take that into consideration and so far our replies did not really point that out on the whole.

Which is exactly why she left so quickly: to avoid any such consideration. That’s the (supposed) benefit of the ‘slamming-door-on-your-way-out’ tactic. It’s also why she reminded me so much of the other thread with the YouTube ’leaver’ guy who complained of confusion while visibly and consistently darting past any and all tutoring sources, and only stopping to showcase things he could find that weren’t so self-explanatory. In her case, leaving quickly saves her from having to face the questions about how she managed to find only 30-day limited places and none of the open ones which everyone else did.

Don’t be sorry, Colleen. I’ve helped newcomers for years, and eventually you can smell it in these types: they prefer not to be helped.

[Malin Sabra]

Make a new account and try to TP around. I bet you will have a harder time finding a place that boots you for being under 30 than not.

I almost feel like the OP is trolling. This can't be a real complaint...

[Rowan Amore]

The one thing I do remember from when I was new was exploring and entering someone house and being tossed out by their security orb.  Did I whine and complain that someone wasn't letting me in somewhere?  Did I throw up my hands and leave in a huff?  No and I really don't recall any regions at that time NOT letting me in.  

If not being able to get into a handful of places until you're 30 days old is that big of an issue for a new user, perhaps this isn't the place for them.  Even after 30 days, there will still be places they will not have access to.  Plain and simple.  I can't access places I'm not a member of in some instances.  I can't tp to every place I see green dots and expect to be allowed.  I take that chance if I tp there.  What the hell is the big deal.  So I can't go.  So what?  

The ONLY thing that they need to do is a big sign, (although most people still won't read it) that says, "Not all regions will be accessible in your first 30 days."  Done.  Stop whining.

[Pixie Kobichenko]

A vetted volunteer or paid position of guides for new accounts under 30 days would be decent.  Tho I’m sure someone will tell me that’s been tried & failed already.

 I signed up for SL in 2007 & couldn’t figure anything out.  I joined because of Dwight Schrute.  But when I got there there was no guide- Just lots of Avis camping for $L everywhere I wandered.  No one speaking, no interacting.  I don’t think I tried logging in twice.

I tried again in 2009 & ended up making a friend immediately who took me to  Tiny Empires’ groups land & there I met loads of helpful friends.  I think if not for the first random friend I wouldn’t have stayed again.

SL is not intuitive & could do better with the initial log in process. 

 

[Prokofy Neva]

18 hours ago, Nanuk Fyrewik said:

I read and read and read I don't know how many sites, followed by watching any videos I could find on how to go from the beginner/noob avatar to a fully mesh/bento avatar - then spent (apparently) an entire months' worth of allowable USD buying Lindens so I could create my avatar (I don't think I did too horrible a job of it).

I did my 'due diligence' before  joining so I wouldn't be a pain-in-the-cracker noob.

So with that out of the way, I was ready to find all the beautiful sims I've seen on flickr and dive into being a sim photographer.

Nope.

After happily snatching your money - if you're less than a month old - you're not welcome on a majority of sims. 

Thing is, you won't ever forget those sims and will never visit them again, even after you're an 'acceptable' month old - much less donate any L$ to them. You'll make sure to let your friends who join you in SL know not to bother with those sims, too.

It would be very nice if someone forced all guilty sim owners to put in big, bold letters on all their sim ads/Destination Guide,  "AVATARS LESS THAN 1 MONTH OLD NOT WELCOME HERE".

I just feel so unwelcome as a new resident. Restrictions, restrictions, restrictions.

By whose standards are new avatars accused, judged, condemned and sentenced?

And why? What on earth is a brand new resident so horrifically guilty of, for crying out loud?

Not even sure I have any desire to keep my premium membership going now. It's just left a really sour taste in my mouth and a bad first impression of Second Life.

 

 

I'm sorry you spent all that money on a "look". Was it really necessary? Of course I'm at the opposite extreme but still, it seems like an "all dressed up and nowhere to go" story.

FWIW, all the areas on the SL Public Land Preserve are open to the public of all ages. You can start at the headquarters here and get a list. It may not be as fabulous as the Destination type locations from which you are locked out (someone once called Botany's Grove "a Texas fish camp"), but there are some nice places and quests, as well as freebies and gifts, while you wait out your 30-day sentence. I hope you won't give up!

This makes me wonder if Linden Lab should re-examine the Destination recommendations for this factor of the lock-out to newbies for 30 days.

I do understand the reasons for such bans, although I don't put them in myself. It's because the tendency of not only griefers to make day-old accounts, and keep making them after they are banned, but various people with grievances who want to harass others on a new alt, notably their ex-partners. I could see why a club would do this, but some meadow for a photo shoot? I guess because of its romantic tie-ins.

Also, I don't see that art galleries have these age bans, so you should try those. You can get the HUD for them at galleries like this one

[Kathlen Onyx]

4 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Ignore it, @Ingrid Ingersoll. There are 2 people in the forum who regularly laugh AT people's posts rather than with them, in an effort to be obnoxious. I don't even consider them worth putting on ignore. Such childishness isn't even worth the trouble.

@phildeacons ResidentAw and I thought I was special.

[Kathlen Onyx]

FWIW, I think we all missed the "let's post a drama thread for the weekend" purpose of the OP.  I mean, who in their right mind would spend all that money and then delete their account.

BTW, we all can stop replying as she asked.....so precious.

[Solar Legion]

Nope, then again Phil is also dead wrong in his assessment of motive. As usual.

[Prokofy Neva]

1 hour ago, Chris Nova said:

That’s nice but the experience itself has to change for at least a month duration. Much more informative, places that are actually newbie-friendly, more things to do, etc etc. They need to let new people know that you can’t jump right in and start exploring. It’s not like how it was. A new mesh avi isn’t gonna cut it. 

There is an ideological hurdle to be crossed by both Lindens and their fans especially on the forums.

And that is the refusal to reinstate ads in welcome areas as we used to have at telehubs. These were small boards (they could be bigger in fact to appeal to the avian) that residents could rent for two weeks for a reasonable price for an ad for their venue. They would rotate and I believe you could not order more than two weeks at a time. This ensured that people motivated to attract and help newbies, whether clubs, shoppings, or entertainment of various kind (like Riverwalk art shows and fireworks) could pay to have a newbie or anybody at an infohub teleport to their area. The fear of the sort of overcommercialization and ugliness that actually results from *lack* of proper advertising capacity, and not an excess of it, causes resistance to this idea that was once innocently installed by admirers of Jane Jacobs.

When the Lindens experimented for a time with their beloved A/B testing, they put in some venues like this with teleportation but they were all insiders whom they believed were attractive -- but not everyone wants to fly a plane or parachute, especially in a world you can fly in already. Not everyone wants to stand around struggling with tutorials about how to torture prims. They don't want a skills session -- they want to have fun and do something interesting. The people with the funds and motivation to pay for billboards like they pay for classifieds can shoulder the burden of the newbie. Everyone in business knows that most newbies in fact don't have money to spend and don't want to spend money, which is why the OP is very different (and possibly a troll). Even so, take the problem seriously and devise solutions without ideological obstacles.

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

There is a lot of reasons retention is low and always has been.. They were losing around 80% a day even back in the boom in the mid to upper 2000's.

The biggest reason they are probably not holding today is, the lack of this whole thing not being user friendly, in a world that has gotten impatient and wants everything now and  more user friendly.

If LL wants to figure something out in this area, Then they need to find a way without stripping property rights from paying land owners for people that don't have the patience to stick around..

That 30 day rule that some use, I'm willing to bet isn't at the top of the list of reasons people are leaving..

I wouldn't go chopping at the bricks in the foundation because of a leak in the roof.

You preachin to the choir baby.

Who said anything about stripping rights from land owners? I certainly didn't.

I never said the 30 day thing would be at the top of the list of reasons people leave. Just that it's an added deterrent to staying.

Reducing 30 days to 14 or even 7 isn't chopping away at the foundation because the roof leaks. It's giving the repairmen a chance to fix the leaky roof before the next storm hits. The land owner sets this in the About Land panel and can change it at will. Increase it, decrease it, by any number of days they want. So I'm not seeing a problem there.

Impatient people aren't going to stick around no matter what you do. I haven't been talking about impatient people.