the telepathy thread

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/critical-thinking/dunning-kruger-effect-probably-not-real

"Probably". But also, it really means "all of us", not "them". Love it!

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

This article from 2017, in which a respected researcher hosed his career by proving ESP works.

(Hint:  Replication is really, really important.)   

https://slate.com/health-and-science/2017/06/daryl-bem-proved-esp-is-real-showed-science-is-broken.html

Interesting article...I was not aware of this particular fiasco.

It affirms the importance of methodology in experiments, and replication.

I have been aware of this in some of the studies I've quoted (for example, experiments that appeared to demonstrate people were prejudiced against Black people). It's important to investigate how the studies were set up, for sure. I consider the experiments but also need other factors to slant my opinion one way or the other. Eventually the evidence mounts up, or doesn't.

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Bagnu said:

7 hours ago, Rat Luv said:

I've heard this! Also, I think there was some case where twin brothers were separated at birth and they finally met up, and each one had picked a similar career, and dressed the same, and their wives even looked really similar...

That isn't telepathic. It relates to the nature vs. nurture debate.

Not overtly, because as you say much of it can be explained via genes (nature) or how one was raised (nurture). I do wonder however if telepathy might occur more often in those who are connected in physical ways (upbringing, genes). I'd like to see experiments in parapsychology include these variables in their assessment.

[Madelaine McMasters]

7 hours ago, Rat Luv said:

15 hours ago, Stephanie Misfit said:

I experienced what is sometimes called "twin telepathy" with my now deceased identical twin. I don't believe there is any scientific evidence that telepathy between twins exists, but talk to twins, especially identical ones, and many of them will be able to tell you stories about such things as knowing or sharing what their twin is feeling when they aren't present. And of course, I experienced the typical twin stuff like finishing each other's sentences, and buying each other the same gifts every birthday. Whether as the result of a close relationship or something else, it's certainly interesting.

I've heard this! Also, I think there was some case where twin brothers were separated at birth and they finally met up, and each one had picked a similar career, and dressed the same, and their wives even looked really similar...

The problem with these theories is that nobody counts all the pairs of identical twins for which these things don't happen, or non twin pairs for which they do.

I know a pair of identical twins who seem to share nothing in common, other than a familial resemblance and a shared fondness for uttering the phrase "I can't believe you're my identical twin". As evidence, they'd counter Stephanie's experience. I also know two completely unrelated people who look like they could be twins and have eerily similar voices and dispositions. As evidence, they'd counter your twin story.

[Luna Bliss]

On 7/5/2021 at 8:06 PM, Chroma Starlight said:

I don't think that's quite how this works, you see, it's not "up" to you what's important today. Maybe today will be something else entirely, there are so many possible paths through a day, some less trodden. Maybe the "universe" (you think there's only one emerging from source?!) will choose to make you notice a number. It'll be something that stands out, obviously, and usually stacked with extradimensional meaning so you really take notice, and maybe it will be like a number is lucky in the most absurd spoopy sequence, every time you touch it feels golden. That is, assuming you didn't dismiss your cue or even ignore it to the point of being unconscious of it. Stranger things than mere good fortunes have happened when people follow gut intuition. I think it happens more readily with symbols than numbers, but numbers have an aesthetic and resonance all their own.

This reminds me of my friend and teacher, Maggie, who studied with the Lakota and was very respected by them (white on the outside and red on the inside they said).  She would receive messages from the crows around her property, and I've heard of similar type connections spoken by Natives.

I do believe this is possible, but it's a bit scary to me...it's so different from the prevailing conception of the Western mind and how I navigate through the world (which is that we're so separate from all that surrounds us and our minds can't connect with it in ways we can't verify through measurement, and that if anybody claims to do so they are delusional or engaging in "magical thinking").

[Innula Zenovka]

25 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I had to read half the article before realizing I'd read it before. My mind is going, Innula.

I wish I'd noticed Daniel Kahneman's name in the story, so I didn't have to wait for @Pamela Gallito introduce me to his book "Thinking Fast and Slow".

I recently read a debunking of the Dunning-Kruger effect, which I was happy to use for looking down my nose at people. Now I have to work harder to prop myself up on a pedestal, dammit.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/critical-thinking/dunning-kruger-effect-probably-not-real

Thanks.  I found the article via How to Make the World Add Up, By Tim Harford.     Thinking Fast and Slow, I'd read before, and it's certainly changed the way I look at things and how I analyse questions.   Do you know Incognito by David Eagleman?  That covers similar territory but from a different perspective.

 Kahneman's new book Noise is also fascinating, though I think it could have benefitted from a bit of editing.

[Madelaine McMasters]

2 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Thanks.  I found the article via How to Make the World Add Up, By Tim Harford.     Thinking Fast and Slow, I'd read before, and it's certainly changed the way I look at things and how I analyse questions.   Do you know Incognito by David Eagleman?  That covers similar territory but from a different perspective.

 Kahneman's new book Noise is also fascinating, though I think it could have benefitted from a bit of editing.

Yep, I've read Incognito. I'll read the article you linked and put "Noise" on my reading list.

I think you might like this Podcast... https://hiddenbrain.org/

I'm a fangirl of the host, Shankar Vedanten. His voice just drips curiosity. His podcast was inspired by... Daniel Kahneman.

[Luna Bliss]

If anyone is interested in Native American spirituality (very different from Western views which determine the nature of reality), I love this Native scholar (Vine Deloria Jr.).  I read one book, and am now embarking on "The World We Used to Live In: Remembering the Powers of the Medicine Men".

Vine Deloria Jr. was named by TIME magazine as one of the greatest religious thinkers of the twentieth century. He was a leading Native American scholar whose research, writings, and teachings on history, law, religion, and political science have not only changed the face of Indian country, but stand to influence future generations of Native and non-Native Americans alike. He has authored many acclaimed books, including Evolution, Creationism, and Other Modern Myths; Red Earth, White Lies; God is Red; Spirit and Reason and Custer Died for Your Sins.

[Madelaine McMasters]

15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This reminds me of my friend and teacher, Maggie, who studied with the Lakota and was very respected by them (white on the outside and red on the inside they said).  She would receive messages from the crows around her property, and I've heard of similar type connections spoken by Natives.

I do believe this is possible, but it's a bit scary to me...it's so different from the prevailing conception of the Western mind and how I navigate through the world (which is that we're so separate from all that surrounds us and our minds can't connect with it in ways we can't verify through measurement, and that if anybody claims to do so they are delusional or engaging in "magical thinking").

I can tell when a raptor enters my yard, from the sounds of other birds. I can tell when a coyote is about by listening to the squirrels. Mating season is always a hoot, sometimes literally. I imagine @Ceka Cianci has such experiences.

You can observe a lot by just watching - Yogi Berra.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Madelaine McMasters

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

17 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This reminds me of my friend and teacher, Maggie, who studied with the Lakota and was very respected by them (white on the outside and red on the inside they said).  She would receive messages from the crows around her property, and I've heard of similar type connections spoken by Natives.

I do believe this is possible, but it's a bit scary to me...it's so different from the prevailing conception of the Western mind and how I navigate through the world (which is that we're so separate from all that surrounds us and our minds can't connect with it in ways we can't verify through measurement, and that if anybody claims to do so they are delusional or engaging in "magical thinking").

Expand  Expand  

I can tell when a raptor or owl enters my yard, from the sounds of other birds. I can tell when a coyote is about by listening to the squirrels. Mating season is always a hoot, sometimes literally. I imagine @Ceka Cianci has such experiences.

You can observe a lot by just watching - Yogi Berra.

The messages some Natives receive are more complex than what you've described.

Anyhow, since we're on the topic of birds, here's a cool bird gif:

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Innula Zenovka]

When I approach topics like ESP, first I give them a shave with Occam's razor, so I can take a  closer look.

For ESP to work, something has to be capable of causing electrochemical reactions in my brain, thus triggering neural activity so that I form an impression of whatever it is that's being communicated to me.

I know how this works when someone speaks to me, or texts or IMs me --  the physical mechanisms whereby the relevant electrochemical reactions are triggered in the eye or ear are well known -- but ESP seems to defy what's currently known of the laws of physics.

So either ESP means there's something wrong with our understanding of the way the universe works and someone should contact CERN immediately or, alternatively, there's something wrong with either the data or our understanding of it, and my friend William of Occam (who doesn't mind my borrowing his razor so long as I clean it after use) tells me the latter is rather more likely.   

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Innula Zenovka

[Luna Bliss]

14 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

When I approach topics like ESP, first I give them a shave with Occam's razor, so I can take a  closer look.

For ESP to work, something has to be capable of causing electrochemical reactions in my brain, thus triggering neural activity so that I form an impression of whatever it is that's being communicated to me.

I know how this works when someone speaks to me, or texts or IMs me --  the physical mechanisms whereby the relevant electrochemical reactions are triggered in the eye or ear or well known -- but ESP seems to defy what's currently known of the laws of physics.

So either ESP means there's something wrong with our understanding of the way the universe works and someone should contact CERN immediately or, alternatively, there's something wrong with either the data or our understanding of it, and my friend William of Occam (who doesn't mind my borrowing his razor so long as I clean it after use) tells me the latter is rather more likely.   

 

I really like this response, as it does not smack of Scientism...

* In other words, you have a preference but an openness to exploration remains.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

11 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

For ESP to work, something has to be capable of causing electrochemical reactions in my brain, thus triggering neural activity so that I form an impression of whatever it is that's being communicated to me.

 

11 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

but ESP seems to defy what's currently known of the laws of physics.

I conceptualize it more like our brain tunes into information it ordinarily blocks and that we haven't figured out how to measure yet. 

And that, yes, it does defy our known laws of physics.

[Luna Bliss]

"This is  a story about you. 

In this very moment, you are consciously reading this sentence in your mind. You are aware of your body and the world surrounding you. Your breath is flowing through your body. 

Everyday you wake up. Instantly, the memories of who you are enter your mind. You start to sense yourself and the external world you woke up to. Then you open your eyes. Everything appears familiar and unspectacular. But how can you trust this emergence of a world? Can you be certain of the accuracy of the perceptions you are experiencing and the faithfulness of the memories in your mind? Are you perhaps just a brain kept alive in a vat in a dark room, receiving fabricated electrical impulses, stimulating it into perceive a fictitious world? Or did you never actually wake up? Are you experiencing an episode of false awakening, the phenomenon of dreaming that you woke up, where the vividness and crispness of the conscious experience trick you into believing its authenticity? Or could you be inhabiting a simulated reality, designed to emulate “true” reality? Or are you currently incarcerated in a psychiatric institution and your mind is hallucinating an entire world of fiction in order to not have to face its own pathology? The array of conceivable alternative explanations for your experience of a reality can be frightening .

Imagine, for a moment, that you are a member of an isolated society. You were never exposed to the collection of human ideas shaping the world today. As a child, your inquisitive mind, exploring your inner and outer reality, was never influenced by human thought traditions, spanning several millennia. You were never told any tale sourced from the competing brands of theology we today find distributed around the globe. You never felt the existential angst that can be triggered by contemplating philosophical problems related to existence, knowledge, reality, and the human mind. You never felt exalted and overwhelmed by the vastness of understanding contained within the edifice of science.© The Author(s) 2019J. B. Glattfelder, Information–Consciousness–Reality, The Frontiers Collection,https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-030-03633-1_11

21 Introduction

How would you then explain your existence? How would you go about answering the questions “What is reality?”, “What can I know?”, and “Who am I?” Assuming a robust skeptical demeanor, you would probably arrive at a fundamental philosophical insight (Descartes1637😞I think, therefore I am. 

The only thing you can truly be sure of is the reality of your own subjective experiences at this very moment. Everything else is questionable. Moreover, musings about the meaning of life would perhaps, in the final analysis, gravitate towards another fundamental philosophical observation, encapsulating the mystery of existence

(Leibnitz1714😞Why is there something rather than nothing? For nothing is simpler and easier than something .Furthermore, assuming that things must exist, we must be able to give a reason for why they must exist in this way, and not otherwise. 

How can you ever be certain about anything? Gazing at the night sky, you would be filled with a deep longing for knowledge.

 For centuries, people hoped that science, the abstract mathematical understanding of the physical world, would shed light on the true nature of reality. Indeed, the explanatory power of science has exploded and with it humanity’s capacity to manipulate reality. The emergence of science is a story of how the human mind gained intimate knowledge of the workings of the universe and how this expertise gave us one of the greatest gifts: the fruits of technology. However, in an act of cosmic irony, this expanding continent of knowledge found itself surrounded by ever longer shores of ignorance. We have been able to probe the unseen subatomic world, only to discover quantum weirdness at its heart. Subatomic particles that display two contradictory properties, depending on if and how they are observed (wave-particle duality). We encountered an insurmountable fundamental physical limit on how much we can ever know about a particle (uncertainty principle). At the quantum level of reality, any certainty is lost and measurements can only be expressed as probabilities (wavefunction). For instance, the location of an elementary particle is probabilistic, meaning that it could be observed anywhere in the universe with a sufficiently low probability. As a result, a subatomic particle can appear at places which should be impossible (quantum tunneling). The discovery of a zoo of elementary particles and the mirror-world of antimatter revealed a far greater structure to reality anyone had dared to dream of. Empty space (the quantum vacuum) was found to be permeated with energy and nothingness became something (zero-point energy, Casimir effect). Dramatically, the very act of measuring a quantum system changes its properties, appearing to give the observer a special status (measurement problem). Indeed, some experiments suggest that the choice of an observer in this moment can alter the past (delayed choice experiments). To this day, we are baffled by the marriage of quantum entities that allows them to stay connected and be both instantaneously influenced (non-locality, violation of local realism), regardless of the spatial separation between them (entanglement)."

The entire book is here:

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-03633-1.pdf

       

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Bagnu]

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 

I conceptualize it more like our brain tunes into information it ordinarily blocks and that we haven't figured out how to measure yet. 

And that, yes, it does defy our known laws of physics.

Not necessarily. Quantum entanglement is known. 

 

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

"This is  a story about you. 

In this very moment, you are consciously reading this sentence in your mind. You are aware of your body and the world surrounding you. Your breath is flowing through your body. 

Everyday you wake up. Instantly, the memories of who you are enter your mind. You start to sense yourself and the external world you woke up to. Then you open your eyes. Everything appears familiar and unspectacular. But how can you trust this emergence of a world? Can you be certain of the accuracy of the perceptions you are experiencing and the faithfulness of the memories in your mind? Are you perhaps just a brain kept alive in a vat in a dark room, receiving fabricated electrical impulses, stimulating it into perceive a fictitious world? Or did you never actually wake up? Are you experiencing an episode of false awakening, the phenomenon of dreaming that you woke up, where the vividness and crispness of the conscious experience trick you into believing its authenticity? Or could you be inhabiting a simulated reality, designed to emulate “true” reality? Or are you currently incarcerated in a psychiatric institution and your mind is hallucinating an entire world of fiction in order to not have to face its own pathology? The array of conceivable alternative explanations for your experience of a reality can be frightening .

Imagine, for a moment, that you are a member of an isolated society. You were never exposed to the collection of human ideas shaping the world today. As a child, your inquisitive mind, exploring your inner and outer reality, was never influenced by human thought traditions, spanning several millennia. You were never told any tale sourced from the competing brands of theology we today find distributed around the globe. You never felt the existential angst that can be triggered by contemplating philosophical problems related to existence, knowledge, reality, and the human mind. You never felt exalted and overwhelmed by the vastness of understanding contained within the edifice of science.© The Author(s) 2019J. B. Glattfelder, Information–Consciousness–Reality, The Frontiers Collection,https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-030-03633-1_11

21 Introduction

How would you then explain your existence? How would you go about answering the questions “What is reality?”, “What can I know?”, and “Who am I?” Assuming a robust skeptical demeanor, you would probably arrive at a fundamental philosophical insight (Descartes1637😞I think, therefore I am. 

The only thing you can truly be sure of is the reality of your own subjective experiences at this very moment. Everything else is questionable. Moreover, musings about the meaning of life would perhaps, in the final analysis, gravitate towards another fundamental philosophical observation, encapsulating the mystery of existence

(Leibnitz1714😞Why is there something rather than nothing? For nothing is simpler and easier than something .Furthermore, assuming that things must exist, we must be able to give a reason for why they must exist in this way, and not otherwise. 

How can you ever be certain about anything? Gazing at the night sky, you would be filled with a deep longing for knowledge.

 For centuries, people hoped that science, the abstract mathematical understanding of the physical world, would shed light on the true nature of reality. Indeed, the explanatory power of science has exploded and with it humanity’s capacity to manipulate reality. The emergence of science is a story of how the human mind gained intimate knowledge of the workings of the universe and how this expertise gave us one of the greatest gifts: the fruits of technology. However, in an act of cosmic irony, this expanding continent of knowledge found itself surrounded by ever longer shores of ignorance. We have been able to probe the unseen subatomic world, only to discover quantum weirdness at its heart. Subatomic particles that display two contradictory properties, depending on if and how they are observed (wave-particle duality). We encountered an insurmountable fundamental physical limit on how much we can ever know about a particle (uncertainty principle).At the quantum level of reality, any certainty is lost and measurements can only be expressed as probabilities (wavefunction). For instance, the location of an elementary particle is probabilistic, meaning that it could be observed anywhere in the universe with a sufficiently low probability. As a result, a subatomic particle can appear at places which should be impossible (quantum tunneling). The discovery of a zoo ofelementaryparticlesandthemirror-worldofantimatterrevealedafargreaterstructureto reality anyone had dared to dream of. Empty space (the quantum vacuum) was found to be permeated with energy and nothingness became something (zero-point energy, Casimir effect). Dramatically, the very act of measuring a quantum system changes its properties, appearing to give the observer a special status (measurement problem). Indeed, some experiments suggest that the choice of an observer in this moment can alter the past (delayed choice experiments). To this day, we are baffled by the marriage of quantum entities that allows them to stay connected and be both instantaneously influenced (non-locality, violation of local realism), regardless of the spatial separation between them (entanglement)."

The entire book is here:

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-03633-1.pdf

       

 

All I can ever know, is that I exist. Cogito, ergo sum. 

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

When I approach topics like ESP, first I give them a shave with Occam's razor, so I can take a  closer look.

For ESP to work, something has to be capable of causing electrochemical reactions in my brain, thus triggering neural activity so that I form an impression of whatever it is that's being communicated to me.

I know how this works when someone speaks to me, or texts or IMs me --  the physical mechanisms whereby the relevant electrochemical reactions are triggered in the eye or ear are well known -- but ESP seems to defy what's currently known of the laws of physics.

So either ESP means there's something wrong with our understanding of the way the universe works and someone should contact CERN immediately or, alternatively, there's something wrong with either the data or our understanding of it, and my friend William of Occam (who doesn't mind my borrowing his razor so long as I clean it after use) tells me the latter is rather more likely.  

I've had friends and colleagues claim, sometimes seriously, usually in jest, that I have ESP of some kind. Some of that is due to my atypically high "flicker fusion threshold", which allows me to detect some optical phenomena out of reach of most people, and more so from some possible cognitive advantage(?) that allows me to detect auditory and visual patterns that are at noise level for others. I'm like the mechanic that can hear what's wrong with your car as you pull in the parking lot.

The material world sends out a lot of information that most of us miss. Before I jump to an extra-materialistic explanation for things, it seems prudent to wonder if I missed something materialistic first. Holy hell, I sure do. The complete 90° rotation of the ambient sound field in my yard a few days ago was a magnificent reminder of the fallibility of my senses. I listened to an ambulance progress from somewhere out in Lake Michigan to somewhere northwest of me, along with semi-trucks slapping tar marks, on a busy east-west highway that simply does not exist.

My neighbors "had never heard anything like this before". That was, of course, false. They were both outside in their yards when I called them, hearing the same sounds I did, but not recognizing the incongruity. Once I drew their attention to it, they could not unhear it. As with me and 4AM, they might now be primed to recognize this phenomena in the future, making me just that much less amazing and the world just that much more.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Madelaine McMasters

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I had to read half the article before realizing I'd read it before. My mind is going, Innula.

I wish I'd noticed Daniel Kahneman's name in the story, so I didn't have to wait for @Pamela Gallito introduce me to his book "Thinking Fast and Slow".

I recently read a debunking of the Dunning-Kruger effect, which I was happy to use for looking down my nose at people. Now I have to work harder to prop myself up on a pedestal, dammit.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/critical-thinking/dunning-kruger-effect-probably-not-real

What's wrong with the one I put you on? Is it not tall enough? Is it not fancy enough?

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

30 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

 

I conceptualize it more like our brain tunes into information it ordinarily blocks and that we haven't figured out how to measure yet. 

And that, yes, it does defy our known laws of physics.

Not necessarily. Quantum entanglement is known. 

I'm saying we ordinarily block the information, individually, with our conscious mind, and not stating anything about whether quantum entanglement is within our current body of knowledge collectively.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Madelaine McMasters]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

What's wrong with the one I put you on? Is it not tall enough? Is it not fancy enough?

It's all that and more, Silent.

What concerns me is you sitting way down there in a lawn chair with a bowl of popcorn.

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

It's all that and more, Silent.

What concerns me is you sitting way down there in a lawn chair with a bowl of popcorn.

 

Oops. *hides bowl* Sorry about that. I didn't bring enough for everyone. A bit short on cash these days ya know.

[Luna Bliss]

@Silent Mistwalker

Why do you laugh at the Vine Deloria Jr. reference. All the Natives I knew (from same tribe as you, Lakota) were very appreciative of his work.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Silent Mistwalker]

Just now, Luna Bliss said:

@Silent Mistwalker

Why do you laugh at the Vine Deloria Jr. reference. All the Natives I knew (from same tribe as you, Dakota) were very appreciative of his work.

I'm not Dakota.

And you would never have known about him if someone hadn't told you on this forum some months ago.

[Luna Bliss]

1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

@Silent Mistwalker

Why do you laugh at the Vine Deloria Jr. reference. All the Natives I knew (from same tribe as you, Dakota) were very appreciative of his work.

I'm not Dakota.

And you would never have known about him if someone hadn't told you on this forum some months ago.

Was a typo I already corrected.

Not true...I've known of him a long while.  I've researched Native American spirituality extensively, and have many books, including his. Not to mention my participation in many ceremonies.

Besides, why would it matter wherever I heard of him first? Are you trying to claim the Lakota don't like him...or?

Shamanism and Yoga have many similarities at an essence level, btw, and in fact Yoga can be traced back to shamanism. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

I'm not going to waste my time on someone I already know isn't going to listen.

[Luna Bliss]

6 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'm not going to waste my time on someone I already know isn't going to listen.

It would depend on what you said.

I don't trust your input on specific aspects of Native spirituality, true, as all the Natives I've known want to bring love and healing to all they meet and have a genuine sympathy for the plight of white people and the Western ways of conceptualizing the world that separates and causes misery.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Luna Bliss