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Covenant Confusion


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I was looking over the Linden Homes Covenant and was wondering which of two seemingly conflicting items take precedence:

All objects that extend outside of your parcel can be returned without warning or notice.

That's pretty clear. But then further down there is this:

Public space outside your parcel lines is just that… public space. Do not extend objects outside of your parcel in a way that will block, wall off, or “claim” public areas for yourself to the exclusion of other residents.

If you assume, based the portion of the the second rule which I have italicized, that you can extend your driveway to the sidewalk or add a couple of flowers in with the other Linden plantings that surround your parcel, can you be moderated and have your items removed regardless of how inconsequential they might be?

It seems like on the one hand no items are allowed to extend, then on the other it might be okay as long as they don't interfere with access.

My fear is that if there is a "look the other way unless it is reported" method of handling these situations by governance, one innocent overhang could be used to target and harrass another resident, potentially putting their account at risk.

People have pondered this before in these forums and I was wondering what the official stance is within LL regarding objects which extend over the parcel line and, most importantly, if there is a safeguard against potential abuse of the reporting system as I have described.

Can you offer some insight and clarification @Patch Linden @Abnor Mole ?

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You couldn't place a single flower outside your parcel (in with the LL flowers) because the root prim has to be on your own land (I think).  I've  read about a walkway extending into  a pond bordering someones parcel, that LL did remove.  I once came into my houseboat to find my neighbor had put in a big boat that extended way into my water--I sent it home to her 😁

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Respectfully, I'm sure that LL is aware of the content and the relevant inclusion is ' "claim" public areas for yourself to the exclusion of other Residents.'  I would interpret that to mean, for example:  You may add a flat driveway object to connect your parcel to a Public Road but you may not add a walled or curbed driveway which prevents the public from using the sidewalks. 

As Bellisseria is still evolving and settling now, I would expect that complaints (ARs) are triaged and dealt with accordingly but as there is still a large amount of GoH turnover, and LL may have realized they are wasting a lot of precious time and skilled contractors acting as Compliance Officers being paid to patrol the Regions checking for possible offenders and returning wandering cats when in a second that 15 minutes they spend measuring, reporting and returning (or however long it might take to go through the checklist of possible infringements) all may very well poof during an Abandon before the ink is dry.  I would also expect that LL is considering how to best deal with the innocence of ignorance of the importance of the Covenant.  I have read the Covenant and I understand it but I don't carry a copy of it along with a measuring device when I'm shopping to ensure I'm not violating the covenant before I purchase an item for my Home.  Also, new Premium Residents could be new enough to SL or old enough to take for granted that they read a covenant once  and blah, blah, blah I know enough because I've been in SL n number of years and I can grow pot in my Bellisseria Home's backyard and not have learned that its important to set anything which extends aesthetically onto Public land should be set to Phantom or may not understand that there's no need to have a Security Orb teleporting passers-by Home from their unfurnished, staked and claimed Home.  There are so many things to consider.  An innocent mistake or misunderstanding and subsequent Abuse Report and Return of an Object doesn't strengthen a community, it tends to divide them into eye-rollers vs the self-appointed Neighbourhood Compliance Volunteers.  There are so many less offensive and more defensive measures which can be taken first.  If there is really a problem like a grief object or an invisi-prim extending out into the street, those home-owners are not invested in the community an probably not going to come over for a barbeque and a friendly discussion about something which affects your enjoyment of your own home, but if its an issue like a wandering kitty-cat that keeps getting stuck in your Lupin garden, that home-owner might come over for a visit and say hello and perhaps notice the kitty-cat stuck in the lupin garden and feel open to a discussion about how to set a Radius, or make it a funny joke and leave a watering can dangling over the Lupin garden watering the cat and send a picture to the owner.

Sometimes an 'offensive idiot' is potentially a great friend in a disguise of ignorance. ♥  Common sense and a good amount of peace, love and understanding do strengthen a community and that is what might make or break a long-term retained user vs a short-term "I give up even trying to understand everything I will need to know about how to enjoy SL" lost hater, hating something else.  I've been here 6 years and I learn something new almost every day, or finally understand something is different than what I assumed or took for granted and I don't think I will ever know all need to know to enjoy the best possible SL experience but I love it enough to know I won't give up trying. ♥

I still loathe one of my siblings who always would call out "Mum, will you please come and clarify that the blue marbles are mine and the red marbles are hers because she's touching them all... and that sibling still does it at age 54 in one form or another and a referee rarely ends a disagreement with a handshake and m ore often sending someone to the penalty box with a silent pay-back vow. ♥

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I am interested to see if Arbor or Patch will reply. The best anyone who is not on LL's enforcement team can do is guess.

My own guess (and this is just a guess) is that decor that does not block off common property as your own, and fits the theme and adds to the overall beauty, it will probably be ignored. But if it causes any problems or is deemed an eyesore or anything like that, then it could be returned.

All I can say is this: if it is returned then dont rerez it.

I had a friend who told me this story: he had a car extended to be on the street in front of his home. One day that car was in his lost and found. He replaced it. Shortly after that he had access to his account suspended for 24 hours for rule breaking because it had been returned by LL and he ignored them and put it back out.

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LL governance is reactive, they do not actively police even the most egregious or flagrant covenant violations.

The rules are

  1. Dont do the thing.
  2. But if you do .. don't do it in way that someone else will notice / report.
  3. If we do get dragged into this .. and do have to take some action .. don't immediately do it again.
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Abnor has commented on this before.  You can place some flowers/bushes a bit outside your property if they are not impeding a walk path -- like adding a few more flowers to what they have already landscaped or adding some stuff just outside the LL provided fence (which is outside the property line).  You can also get away with extending a driveway to meet the street or a walkway to meet the LL sidewalk.  You cannot extend a walkway or pier from your land to a nearby waterway.  You cannot put a car out on the LL provided streets or a bike out on the LL provided sidewalks.  LL is intentionally vague on it --- because they don't want to be total hard-asses about it.  But they also do not want a street to end up full of parked cars.

 

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My previous Trad house had space for a driveway but the sidewalk was too high above ground level to actually drive a vehicle out, so I extended my drive to meet the sidewalk, which extended over my property line by about 3m or so. It remained that way for about 2 or 3 months, until I abandoned the house to try for a chalet instead.

Can't do it with my current house though, there are trees in the way.

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Most of my trads and Vics have had homemade paths or driveways extending slightly beyond the boundary line and I would have been extremely surprised if they were ever returned (we have sidewalk textures in the content packs for a reason!). But I also accept that if I encroach on Linden land I do so at my own risk. In short, I use my common sense and trust the Lindens to do likewise. SL has been around for eighteen years; they should be familiar enough by now with frivolous abuse reports motivated by personal grudges to disregard them when they see them.

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I was a bad girl once and got caught.  I had a home on the edge of a region, with a totally empty region behind it. I used an offsim extender to put some trees out behind the house in the empty unused area, extending about 6 or 7 M into the empty region.

One day the trees were returned.. I popped over to see a mole busy at work starting to setup framework to build on that region. I promptly apologized for having had the trees in his way. He was very nice about it.

I learned that moles can return things at their discretion. and in this case it was totally obvious to everyone that my trees had to go so he could do his work and set up the new homes.

 

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You aren't going to be suddenly banned for life for a small thing like a few flowers that turn out to be in the way. They will simply be returned. Putting the item back can get you into trouble, because the thing being returned was your warning, but they don't treat stuff like that as a major rulebreak.

People understand that mistakes happen as well, such as pets with the roaming settings not being right. If you end up with pets escaping your garden, you won't be the first to have made that mistake.

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I once had a mole (I believe it was Abnor Mole) tell me some of my pretties were just outside my parcel boundaries on my stilt. They were nice about it and left an IM asking me to tuck in my stuff behind the posts. They did not return anything, which I appreciated because I had it all linked together, so they would have returned half my parcel. I apologized and tucked in my belongings, and we all lived happily ever after.

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36 minutes ago, Mercedes Avon said:

I once had a mole (I believe it was Abnor Mole) tell me some of my pretties were just outside my parcel boundaries on my stilt. They were nice about it and left an IM asking me to tuck in my stuff behind the posts. They did not return anything, which I appreciated because I had it all linked together, so they would have returned half my parcel. I apologized and tucked in my belongings, and we all lived happily ever after.

Yeah, they are a little pickier with the Stilts in the water.  Probably because the posts mark the public boating passages.  I think it is similar with the Houseboats, where they are not quite so lenient about things outside the parcel boundaries.

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On 7/2/2021 at 3:08 AM, GinaFreumann said:

You couldn't place a single flower outside your parcel (in with the LL flowers) because the root prim has to be on your own land (I think).  I've  read about a walkway extending into  a pond bordering someones parcel, that LL did remove.  I once came into my houseboat to find my neighbor had put in a big boat that extended way into my water--I sent it home to her 😁

Since you don't know how, I certainly will not post how. Because I would get a forum ban for a time. 😮

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  • 2 weeks later...

Along the central river where the original Trads are, several people extended docks out into the water, then made them all invisible. It certainly caught many sailors by surprise to suddenly find our boats blocked by some unseen issue. I know several were returned but I wonder if the culprits ever re-rezzed them. The oddest thing is, why bother rezzing a dock if you cant even see it ?

Regarding cars parked on the side of the road, well that's just rude, and it's clearly "claiming public land" as your own - i've spotted a few and promptly reported them.

The worse case of claiming public land I found though was someone who owned a Vic home close the the beach - not only had they rezzed those off-shore waves (which were left physical and actually blocked a nearby rez zone), but they had fenced off a whole pile of beach area and erected a "private beach, keep out" sign. It's when I see things like this that everyone should be really glad I am not a Mole, because I'd be returning that sort of stuff in a flash haha

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56 minutes ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

Along the central river where the original Trads are, several people extended docks out into the water, then made them all invisible. It certainly caught many sailors by surprise to suddenly find our boats blocked by some unseen issue. I know several were returned but I wonder if the culprits ever re-rezzed them. The oddest thing is, why bother rezzing a dock if you cant even see it ?

Regarding cars parked on the side of the road, well that's just rude, and it's clearly "claiming public land" as your own - i've spotted a few and promptly reported them.

The worse case of claiming public land I found though was someone who owned a Vic home close the the beach - not only had they rezzed those off-shore waves (which were left physical and actually blocked a nearby rez zone), but they had fenced off a whole pile of beach area and erected a "private beach, keep out" sign. It's when I see things like this that everyone should be really glad I am not a Mole, because I'd be returning that sort of stuff in a flash haha

Maybe they rezzed the dock not realising or forgetting that one part of the dock could have been a walk-on prim (to allow walking on the dock - usually seen with structures made from sculpts set to phantom). Then took the dock back, leaving the invisible walk-on prim?

Edited by Emma Krokus
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nope, it wasn't any kind of hidden physics shape or prim, it was a complete multi-part linked mesh dock, they had simply selected the object and changed the transparency to 100%.

As my original post said, there were "several" of them. Even if one person had made this "mistake", I find it hard to believe that multiple people across 2 regions made the same "mistake" with different brands and designs of docks ;)

I just went back there, and incredibly, one of these invisible docks is still there, complete with invisible stairs too 

 

 

dock.jpg

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6 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

nope, it wasn't any kind of hidden physics shape or prim, it was a complete multi-part linked mesh dock, they had simply selected the object and changed the transparency to 100%.

As my original post said, there were "several" of them. Even if one person had made this "mistake", I find it hard to believe that multiple people across 2 regions made the same "mistake" with different brands and designs of docks ;)

I just went back there, and incredibly, one of these invisible docks is still there, complete with invisible stairs too 

 

 

dock.jpg

Wow! I really can't think why someone would do that...

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1 hour ago, Emma Krokus said:

Wow! I really can't think why someone would do that...

They hide it in the hope that it will not be discovered and returned as it is in violation of the covenant. They may even have a script installed that toggles the invisibility on and off upon their touching it.

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20 minutes ago, Sister Nova said:

They hide it in the hope that it will not be discovered and returned as it is in violation of the covenant. They may even have a script installed that toggles the invisibility on and off upon their touching it.

Perhaps someone would write a script for them that makes it non-phantom only when walked on... with a little collision prim at top and bottom of stairs etc it could be done... but then who wants to sail through docks!

Better idea, enforce the covenant!

Edited by Emma Krokus
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11 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

nope, it wasn't any kind of hidden physics shape or prim, it was a complete multi-part linked mesh dock, they had simply selected the object and changed the transparency to 100%.

As my original post said, there were "several" of them. Even if one person had made this "mistake", I find it hard to believe that multiple people across 2 regions made the same "mistake" with different brands and designs of docks ;)

I just went back there, and incredibly, one of these invisible docks is still there, complete with invisible stairs too 

 

 

dock.jpg

Tsk.. tsk..

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On 7/13/2021 at 1:30 PM, Sister Nova said:

They hide it in the hope that it will not be discovered and returned as it is in violation of the covenant. They may even have a script installed that toggles the invisibility on and off upon their touching it.

Well and why should that really interfere with anyones interest? Why take offence?

... at least if they are set to phantom too and only returned to visible and real as long as their owner is present.

 

Edited by Leora Jacobus
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2 hours ago, Leora Jacobus said:

Well and why should that really interfere with anyones interest? Why take offence?

... at least if they are set to phantom too and only returned to visible and real as long as their owner is present.

 

If they had been set to phantom it is unlikely that anyone would have discovered them.

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