Policies for Transitioning Old Linden Homes to Bellisseria

[Mollymews]

On 7/12/2021 at 7:54 PM, animats said:

Remember, each Linden Home owner is a premium member. One who's not costing LL many resources

^^ this

force marching someone who is giving you (Linden) $100pa needs a pretty good reason to do so. In the Zindra case there was a RL compliance reason

the only RL reason for force marching the old Linden Homes residents would be financial, that the cost of the maintaining the region is greater than the income (premium fees) of the remaining residents on a region

[Vihmakass]

4 hours ago, Nika Talaj said:

You have an interesting perspective!  The amount of traffic seen daily on the older LH regions has always suggested to me that there are residents who simply prefer them.  I think we should all keep in mind that LL has not stated at any time that residents will ever be forced to leave them.  In fact, I'm not sure that LL will ever close them down entirely.  Look at the percentage of mainland that has languished, abandoned, for years.

The reasons you give for liking banlines are ALL addressed by the security system @Sister Nova described. You can set it to eject anyone from your parcel after 15 seconds (it also supports whitelisting your group or individuals by name).  I personally believe LL's security system is a much better solution than banlines.  Bellisseria, unlike the old LH regions, is set up to encourage tourism - that is, it has an extensive derivable road network, navigable waters, etc..  I tested banlines in Belli (by banning one of my own alts), and they were visible when simply passing in a car.  Once you set up banlines, they are there 24 hours a day, not just when you are online.  That's a lot of passersby that your security is annoying! 

If you want to test out LL's security system, maybe make an alt premium for a month and pick up any Bellisseria home - you might enjoy a stilt home or chalet, both of which offer very open interior layouts, so are easy to remodel.  The security system that comes with Bellisseria homes can be used anywhere in SL, so you could try it out on your current Linden Home (eta: just thinking, it may be that LL's system can only be rezzed by the parcel owner.  After the first setup, you can specify other avatars who can manage it.).  You could also try living in a skybox (above 2000m) over a Belli home, which would of course decrease viewer-side lag greatly, as well as avoiding nearly all avatar traffic.

If you have a Meadowbrook home, I personally think LL will introduce a Belli theme that should appeal to Meadowbrook fans within a year.  It will be interesting to see if they come up with another 512 theme, too!  At present, the only Belli 512 theme is Campers.

So new system allows stranger to enter my house and be there 15 sec and is not effective in new houses yard, only just in house?

15 min is enough for troll to come and make some nasty snapshots in my home and post them on public feed with some even more nasty text.

With some security orbs what have same delay warning option it has happen to mine friends - yber not wanted outcome and takes away all safety feel. And when you are AFK at that moment- you cant even do anything against it. Adding them later to not wanted list has no meaning bc damage IS already done and nothing fixes it.

Also if that doesnt extend to yard.....why i even need yard if it isnt safe? 

 

Skyboxes on LH are just  waste of prims and to have nice one means - big waste of LOT prims. And if you have 512 plot it isnt reasonable to do bc then you cant have nearly anything for deco or furniture bc you dont have enough prims.

Until now any of released themes arent "my thing". Only closest ones are forest cabins but those are with small rooms like matchboxes - i hate when mine cam is most of time in walls or ceilings, cant then see properly what I do or how i look when i change. Floorplans there are made so that you cant remodel them much, adding walls makes rooms even more smaller and sealing some tiny rooms in bigger houses is kind of hard task to do - outcome never will be nice.

 

I am from North area of Europe....living in camper or ON water .....its yber weird for us, and not in pleasant way. Near water is different thing, it is ok.

That last part is personal and doesnt extend over all old LH owners....like i told tastes are different.

 

P.S: about ban lines.

There is simple setting in your browser with what you can make ban lines invisible, same with property lines.

Still they are very good sign to others that owner of this property doesnt want visitors on their land, not into house , not into yard.

They doesnt give to bad people those 15 sec to do what they want and 15 sec is enough if someone wants make damage, even 5 sec allows lot disturbance. Not allowing bad people on land at all is best and gives you safe home. It is preventing measure, adding people to ban list can be done AFTER damage is made and if you catch them to know their username. Ban list is 300 names, with all bots, alts and random intruders it will be full within year....and then you need start delete names to add new ones - not perfect solution. One rented place what i know has around 200 names in orb intruder list per MONTH.

Tourism.....is intruding to your home or garden  tourism? Public roads are free to all and there is still camming option if someone is curious, no need to enter.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Vihmakass

[Vihmakass]

2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

^^ this

force marching someone who is giving you (Linden) $100pa needs a pretty good reason to do so. In the Zindra case there was a RL compliance reason

the only RL reason for force marching the old Linden Homes residents would be financial, that the cost of the maintaining the region is greater than the income (premium fees) of the remaining residents on a region

People who leave premium or even SL bc of forcing change are even less desirable outcome for LL bc they loose that income from them then completely + disappointed users are not good promo for whole SL.

There surely is compromises what can be done so both sides are satisfied.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Vihmakass said:

15 min is enough for troll to come and make some nasty snapshots in my home and post them on public feed with some even more nasty text.

I can do that, even in the old Linden Homes, without ever entering your home or even your parcel. Granted, I would have to step into the parcel if I wanted said snapshots to show any people that might be there.

 

1 hour ago, Vihmakass said:

Also if that doesnt extend to yard.....why i even need yard if it isnt safe? 

The security orb covers your entire parcel, not just inside the house.

 

 

45 minutes ago, Vihmakass said:

People who leave premium or even SL bc of forcing change are even less desirable outcome for LL bc they loose that income from them then completely + disappointed users are not good promo for whole SL.

The new Bellisseria homes, with the modified covenant, have been available for a bit over 2 years now.  While some folks might have dropped their Premium membership due to the Bellisseria rules, all appearances are that there has actually been a surge in memberships specifically to claim a home.  The homes are still in very high demand, with most of the themes still being constantly sold out.

Something tells me that if the new Bellisseria rules were going to cause a major issue for LL, it would already have happened.

Truth be told, I really think that the vast majority of folks that pay for Premium do it for other reasons besides the Linden Home and if the Linden Home isn't to their liking, they are not likely to cancel their membership just for that reason.

Edited July 21, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Vihmakass]

55 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I can do that, even in the old Linden Homes, without ever entering your home or even your parcel. Granted, I would have to step into the parcel if I wanted said snapshots to show any people that might be there.

 

The security orb covers your entire parcel, not just inside the house.

 

 

The new Bellisseria homes, with the modified covenant, have been available for a bit over 2 years now.  While some folks might have dropped their Premium membership due to the Bellisseria rules, there has actually been a surge in memberships specifically to claim a home.  The homes are still in very high demand, with most of the themes still being constantly sold out.

Something tells me that if the new Bellisseria rules were going to cause a major issue for LL, it would already have happened.

Truth be told, I really think that the vast majority of folks that pay for Premium do it for other reasons besides the Linden Home and if the Linden Home isn't to their liking, they are not likely to cancel their membership just for that reason.

1. It depends settings what owner of old LH has set up. If no rezz and script or item enter + invisibility is set up - nothing much can be done if ban lines are up. Maybe only sound trolling but even that can be turned off with setings. 

2.That is good to know about orb. Still security from orbs has more flaws than ban lines. Orbs ban list is limited and if there isnt 0 sec ejection...it isnt very safe.Of course if not use home much and pop in rarely and not much care what others do there -  it is enough.

3.Belliseria is filled with lot of alts. I know kind of many who has 3 even 4 houses there.Havent asked why they need so many, not mine thing to do.

Rules havent caused problems bc until now choosing new LH is persons free will, so they know what they choose and want it. Who doesnt want ...they are still in old LH  or on mainland or rent or use some community property. 

4.Not all just want support LL with premium fee. there are many reasons why people are premium and i fear those others are majority not vice versa.

That is one reason why i post here about topic. 

5. I still believe that there are ways to make compromises what satisfies all sides.

One might be using those gigantic areas on mainland, what are abandoned already long time, to make road on what sides are 512 plots on what owner can rezz what theme old LH they want and where all same old rules apply on property. Those areas are there anyway, so filling them up might give some life to area.

And give those plots only to members who own now old LH. When they give up that property- it goes back to be abandoned land to be sold to anyone.

Bc plots have possibility to rezz all kind old themes if owner wants change only theme they dont need abandon house anymore to get  wanted theme.

Give people like half year to move there/add just option - claim on mainland and after you push it old property poofs and new property link is given/ and halt giving old LH, start deleting already empty houses on old area. Houses with owners what still remain on old sim...i think there isnt much of them after half year and if is then just automatically move them into new place bc maybe owner returns to SL before they loose premium....ok they need redcorate but that is minor issue then. And if they dont come back and renew premium.....land becomes abandoned land.

By time there will be left only ones who really are long time fans of old houses and rules.

I think that would be most simple way....but this is just me

Edited July 21, 2021 by Vihmakass

[Sparkle Bunny]

14 hours ago, Vihmakass said:

They doesnt give to bad people those 15 sec to do what they want and 15 sec is enough if someone wants make damage, even 5 sec allows lot disturbance.

Wow, if people were that dedicated to targeting me I think I'd have to switch to another account. Most random griefers are just not that level of efficient.

[Vihmakass]

4 minutes ago, Sparkle Bunny said:

Wow, if people were that dedicated to targeting me I think I'd have to switch to another account. Most random griefers are just not that level of efficient.

Exactly that should never happen....if you switch - they win and go and do it to next random victim. That they want, that makes them tick and powers them up.

Why you should loose your account bc of griefer, not be able use measures against them to ensure your safety ? They loose interest if they cant grief and if they cant find next victim too ...they hopefully loose interest into whole SL, what is good outcome.  I know that is silly optimism but better than just giving up.

[Sparkle Bunny]

You know you can ban specific avatars from Bellisseria parcels, right? And obviously if you do come across one of these warp-speed griefers, 5 seconds is also long enough to take note of their name and report them; which you wouldn't be able to do if they hadn't been able to enter your land in the first place. That's a rather more effective way of getting rid of them than expecting everyone in SL to set up banlines.

[LittleMe Jewell]

15 hours ago, Vihmakass said:

. It depends settings what owner of old LH has set up. If no rezz and script or item enter + invisibility is set up - nothing much can be done if ban lines are up. Maybe only sound trolling but even that can be turned off with setings. 

Apparently ban lines only go up to 50m, so I can fly up above that and then come into your land and cam down into your house.  

[Vihmakass]

5 hours ago, Sparkle Bunny said:

You know you can ban specific avatars from Bellisseria parcels, right? And obviously if you do come across one of these warp-speed griefers, 5 seconds is also long enough to take note of their name and report them; which you wouldn't be able to do if they hadn't been able to enter your land in the first place. That's a rather more effective way of getting rid of them than expecting everyone in SL to set up banlines.

Yes that is possible if you are 24/7 online and never afk / away from keyboard/....ban lines arent  afk. And i dont need report them if they cant grief me...no need report things what havent happened. Preventing is healthier than fixing things afterward and griefer then already has got their power boost, thing on what they are addicted.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Vihmakass

[Vihmakass]

5 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Apparently ban lines only go up to 50m, so I can fly up above that and then come into your land and cam down into your house.  

Are you sure? I have got struck by banlines when flying with plane and more high than 50m...... when i log in i test that out, just in case to be sure.

Camming into property/house is possible even with ban lines....and that isnt problem. Entering and doing stupid, nasty things is.

p.s. It is good for mine clients too bc then i can set up smth what protects them from that too. 

P.S.2 Went and tested it...yes old LH ban lines seem short but...you still cant enter from above into house. There is invisible wall, you can hower above it but not enter. And like i told you can cam in from everywhere, no need fly above house. So you are right and same time not.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Vihmakass

[Sparkle Bunny]

41 minutes ago, Vihmakass said:

Camming into property/house is possible even with ban lines....and that isnt problem. Entering and doing stupid, nasty things is.

I am still at a complete loss as to what stupid nasty things people are going to do within 15 seconds when you're not even there. (Unless of course you have build enabled, in which case you should probably turn it off).

[Mollymews]

5 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Apparently ban lines only go up to 50m, so I can fly up above that and then come into your land and cam down into your house.  

just a FYI about this

when parcel banlines are on, and avatar visibility is restricted to parcel, and at least one agent (say Governor Linden) is on the parcel ban list

then a avatar on the parcel over the banline box can't see avatars inside the banline box and agents inside the banline box can't see avatars over the banline box

[Nika Talaj]

1 hour ago, Vihmakass said:

P.S.2 Went and tested it...yes old LH ban lines seem short but...you still cant enter from above into house. There is invisible wall, you can hower above it but not enter. And like i told you can cam in from everywhere, no need fly above house. So you are right and same time not.

Ban lines are different depending on whether you are one of a whole class of people who are banned, or whether you are explicitly banned by name.  According to SL's wiki:

Quote

Banlines

Lines of floating red letters spelling out “no entry” that appears on the boundaries of a land parcel that your avatar is not allowed to enter. Ban lines are limited to a height of 5000 m above the terrain mesh when you're explicitly banned from the land. If the parcel is simply not pubic access or restricted to certain Residents/groups, then the lines go up to 50 m above the terrain mesh.

LL's security system is more like a security orb, allowing you to set a height range over which it detects & ejects intruders.  It also has this interesting "Sky Alert" feature, which sounds like an operation to be undertaken by a certain ex-president's SPACE FORCE, but is actually kind of a cool feature for a person who is nervous about neighbors spying on them.

Quote

The RANGE menu allows you you choose presets that determine the upper and lower elevation limits of your protected area.  You may set them up to 400m above and below you.

    The SKY ALERT menu will only operate if you are using the system in a skybox above 2000m.  When activated, it will send you a chat message when anyone has been in your parcel and within 1000m for at least 15 seconds.   It is designed to alert you to people who are not merely flying though the parcel.  It will NOT eject them.  
        Sky Alert operates independently from the rest of the Security System, so you may activate it whether you have a protected area activated around your skybox or not.  Sky Alert will ignore people within 100m of your skybox, so you may keep it active while you have invited guests there.

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Nika Talaj

[Vihmakass]

3 hours ago, Sparkle Bunny said:

I am still at a complete loss as to what stupid nasty things people are going to do within 15 seconds when you're not even there. (Unless of course you have build enabled, in which case you should probably turn it off).

i can give you one or two ex. what arent fiction but have had happened to people in SL.

They can pose naked with some attachments sticked into you even if your avi just stands there and is afk...take screenshot and post it to social media or send them to your partner.

They can derender you naked and take screenshots with you aso aso aso

I think you got it now? 15 sec is enough for that.

15sec is not safe..... 

5sec is enough for avis who fly around carelessly....i can say it from mine own expierence, I was long time gold hunter, saw a lot dif. kind security systems.

If person needs more time ..they shouldnt fly around in areas where ban lines can be up.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Vihmakass

[Mollymews]

4 hours ago, Vihmakass said:

Are you sure? I have got struck by banlines when flying with plane and more high than 50m...... when i log in i test that out, just in case to be sure.

is 50 metres above the terrain. The terrain follows a heightmap creating hills, plains and valleys. So the top of the box by absolute ruler will be higher on a mountain than it will be in a vallley

some airplanes have altimeters that give the height of the airplane from the terrain

[LittleMe Jewell]

3 hours ago, Mollymews said:

just a FYI about this

when parcel banlines are on, and avatar visibility is restricted to parcel, and at least one agent (say Governor Linden) is on the parcel ban list

then a avatar on the parcel over the banline box can't see avatars inside the banline box and agents inside the banline box can't see avatars over the banline box

 

My comment about the ban lines came from this post and the one right after - seemed like I could get in to the parcel if I got above the ban lines (as long as I wasn't banned by name).

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Maitimo]

On 7/21/2021 at 1:52 AM, Vihmakass said:

So new system allows stranger to enter my house and be there 15 sec and is not effective in new houses yard, only just in house?

15 min is enough for troll to come and make some nasty snapshots in my home and post them on public feed with some even more nasty text.

With some security orbs what have same delay warning option it has happen to mine friends - yber not wanted outcome and takes away all safety feel. And when you are AFK at that moment- you cant even do anything against it. Adding them later to not wanted list has no meaning bc damage IS already done and nothing fixes it.

Also if that doesnt extend to yard.....why i even need yard if it isnt safe? 

 

The LH security extends to the parcel border, not just the walls of your house.

And it's not 15 min, it's 15 sec. That isn't long enough for a troll to even see what's there, never mind take snapshots. As long as you have avatar visibility from outside the parcel turned off as well, you're safe.

[Matthieu Quander]

I don't want to trivialize anyone feeling unsafe or having their privacy violated in any way, especially since this sort of thing tends to apply more to female than male avatars, but anyone who has spent any time in Bellisseria knows that it takes an honest 15 seconds for avatars to even partially rez unless you are using the lowest graphics settings.  I'm sure a determined individual could sneak onto a parcel and grab a candid photo in that amount of time, but to add props and such to make it look like something inappropriate was happening seems farfetched to me.  

If you have ever gone to a crowded music venue or shopping event, people have already seen you naked, as your clothes tend to rez last.  If you are that concerned about someone seeing your private pixels, wear alphas under your clothing or when you are going to be afk while naked.  

Planes may be able to get across a parcel in 5 seconds, but hot air balloons take a little longer.  

In short, I don't see anything wrong with the security settings as currently stipulated in the covenant, and speaking as someone who enjoys living in Bellisseria for the vehicle playground aspect, I would hate to see banlines become a thing there.  

 

[Maitimo]

One day a couple of months ago I was hanging out on my parcel doing not much (I was probably reading the forum, lol) and suddenly I received a snapshot to my IM.

I did not have any security in place at the time. I did have avatar visibility off but he clearly came into my yard to take that pic.

The guy has "The Bellisseria Creep" as his display name and in his profile is a link to his Imgur collection which has hundreds of such photos, many of them of people photographed naked or in the middle of adult activity.

I'd never previously thought it necessary to have security on in my Linden home but I do now. He's also on my banned list.

Point is, though, he could never have managed to do that in less than 15 seconds.

[yestothis]

9 minutes ago, Maitimo said:

One day a couple of months ago I was hanging out on my parcel doing not much (I was probably reading the forum, lol) and suddenly I received a snapshot to my IM.

I did not have any security in place at the time. I did have avatar visibility off but he clearly came into my yard to take that pic.

The guy has "The Bellisseria Creep" as his display name and in his profile is a link to his Imgur collection which has hundreds of such photos, many of them of people photographed naked or in the middle of adult activity.

I'd never previously thought it necessary to have security on in my Linden home but I do now. He's also on my banned list.

Point is, though, he could never have managed to do that in less than 15 seconds.

That’s such an invasion of privacy. 

[Sparkle Bunny]

12 hours ago, Vihmakass said:

They can pose naked with some attachments sticked into you even if your avi just stands there and is afk...take screenshot and post it to social media or send them to your partner.

They can derender you naked and take screenshots with you aso aso aso

So maybe don't go afk while lying on your sexbed? Or disable your RLV so they can't force you to sit? I mean, nobody's going to be convinced by a picture of you just standing there staring into space while a random waves his freenis in your vicinity. In any case, nobody has fast enough reflexes to sit on your bed, select a pose, adjust the pose, derender your clothes, adjust the camera and take the screenshot in 15 seconds.

Also, if you're that paranoid you' must already be wearing BOM underwear at all times, so nobody can 'derender you naked'. If they're this determined to cause trouble it'd be easier just taking a snapshot of you while you're out and about and photoshopping your head on to someone else's body. How do you propose to stop them doing that?

If the actual problem is that you think they're going to catch you having sex with someone (which is the only reason I can think of for being afk on your sexbed, tbh 😉) you probably need a skybox on an island, not a Linden Home.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Sparkle Bunny
typo

[Claireschen Hesten]

17 hours ago, Vihmakass said:

Camming into property/house is possible even with ban lines....and that isnt problem. Entering and doing stupid, nasty things is.

In my experience "Entering and doing stupid nasty things" doesn't happen anywhere as often as you think if you're not giving people reason to. I've lived on mainland over 12 years i've never prevented people getting in to my home the worst thing i've ever come across was i tp'd in and a couple were enjoying some adult playtime on my bed. The rest of the time be it any Bellisseria property i've had or mainland if any people enter they have a wander and leave as soon as they notice me.

[LittleMe Jewell]

31 minutes ago, Claireschen Hesten said:

"Entering and doing stupid nasty things" doesn't happen anywhere as often as you think

As with many things in life, the fear of something often far outweighs the actual occurrence of said thing.

People get too worked up all because they heard that it happened to their friend's husband's sister's friend.

[Nika Talaj]

2 hours ago, Maitimo said:

One day a couple of months ago I was hanging out on my parcel doing not much (I was probably reading the forum, lol) and suddenly I received a snapshot to my IM.

...

I did not have any security in place at the time. I did have avatar visibility off but he clearly came into my yard to take that pic.

The guy has "The Bellisseria Creep" as his display name and in his profile is a link to his Imgur collection which has hundreds of such photos, many of them of people photographed naked or in the middle of adult activity.

I really hope you filed an AR for harassment.  People who do this (invasively take candid shots and share them with you and the world) often are telling themselves that their subjects secretly like this.  Both for their SL and their RL, they need to get strong feedback that their subjects DO NOT appreciate this form of exploitation.  And that it can have consequences.