dev kits, morality and rats with ponytails

[ILoveGUPuss]

Hi guys, im currently stucked with getting Legacy and Maitreya bodies dev kits for a months, thats so stupid. What do u think about using some dev kits other ways, not talking about morality, thats bad, yes, who cares? me. But not today  Especially when i got slink, kupra, signature, beleza in few days, the real winner is Signature here (5 hrs) so fast xx. Talking about like if "someone", not me ofc  (we all know who and how gonna use it) rigging my cloth for me and i sell it, is it legal? because i dont know their license agreement. Any other legal ways of rigging cloths to these specific bodies not having its devkits? If everything is illegal, okay, what can they do, because how i imagine some situations in my head its enough to say like, -"oh hi, this man (Random name) rigged it for me, bye 😹" ---> black list OR!, - "oh hi, bye" ----> black list. Intresting to know. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by ILoveGUPuss

[Orwar]

   Some brands could potentially be reluctant to give you a dev kit if they look at your store and find you've used a pirated kit. Some may even go as far as to threaten you with either a DMCA or to AR to LL for using stolen stuff, but whether they actually can do that or not, I don't know.

[Tazzie Tuque]

I am aware of a few "creators" who do not make their own mesh nor do they rig it, but pay someone to do that for them, and they just upload the .dae files in their name and sell the finished product.  However, I am pretty sure that who ever they hire to do that work for them, must legally own the appropriate dev kits they are using.  If you get the dev kits and pass them on to someone else to use for you,  I am pretty sure that is against the TOS and therefore subject to DMCA or AR if reported or found out.

[ILoveGUPuss]

9 hours ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

I am aware of a few "creators" who do not make their own mesh nor do they rig it, but pay someone to do that for them, and they just upload the .dae files in their name and sell the finished product.  However, I am pretty sure that who ever they hire to do that work for them, must legally own the appropriate dev kits they are using.  If you get the dev kits and pass them on to someone else to use for you,  I am pretty sure that is against the TOS and therefore subject to DMCA or AR if reported or found out.

hm yes, i understand now anyway its illegal even if someone has "legal" dev kits and making mesh or rig for u to sell, because finaly .dae files contains the weights of its bodies and u can not transfer these data to others in any form. Im asking about all that because i also have some friends who creates mesh and use illegal dev kits for a years, they dont care, i do. If we are talking about intellectual property how can i know, where to see, check that its "registered" or not to avoid potential problems in a future? Anyone knows?

[Lucia Nightfire]

16 hours ago, ILoveGUPuss said:

hm yes, i understand now anyway its illegal even if someone has "legal" dev kits and making mesh or rig for u to sell, because finaly .dae files contains the weights of its bodies and u can not transfer these data to others in any form. Im asking about all that because i also have some friends who creates mesh and use illegal dev kits for a years, they dont care, i do. If we are talking about intellectual property how can i know, where to see, check that its "registered" or not to avoid potential problems in a future? Anyone knows?

It's simple. If you, yourself didn't apply to get a dev kit directly from the creator via the method they or their CSR's offer, ANY other means is illegal and ANY justification is clearly saying you do not mind breaking the rules.

There is no confusion. There are only excuses and lies.

[Extrude Ragu]

Obtaining something without permission sure

To play devils advocate though. How would you prove that somebody has obtained your dev kit to make clothes for your body.

At the end of the day a motivated individual with some time on their hands could do it via trial and error on the beta grid.

I don't believe creators have the right to restrict you from making things that just so happen to fit around their things either. It's your creation and you'll shape it how you like.

I can't see how this can be enforced

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 6/26/2021 at 11:12 PM, ILoveGUPuss said:

hm yes, i understand now anyway its illegal even if someone has "legal" dev kits and making mesh or rig for u to sell, because finaly .dae files contains the weights of its bodies and u can not transfer these data to others in any form.

If that was true, wouldn't it mean you also couldn't sell clothing made for those bodies at all? Template makers often offer .dae files - I doubt that it would be a problem for you to hire someone with a legal kit to rig for you.

[ILoveGUPuss]

14 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

If that was true, wouldn't it mean you also couldn't sell clothing made for those bodies at all? Template makers often offer .dae files - I doubt that it would be a problem for you to hire someone with a legal kit to rig for you.

except selling* ofc (it says in belleza, signature contracts, others same for sure), because even if u copybot something it comes to you with .dae i think, but cb is another story. 

[ILoveGUPuss]

13 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Obtaining something without permission sure

To play devils advocate though. How would you prove that somebody has obtained your dev kit to make clothes for your body.

At the end of the day a motivated individual with some time on their hands could do it via trial and error on the beta grid.

I don't believe creators have the right to restrict you from making things that just so happen to fit around their things either. It's your creation and you'll shape it how you like.

I can't see how this can be enforced

yep, sure. not gonna talk about litigations, its very intresting process.

u can do rig to any body via trial and errors, but once u start change shape its not perfect at all, because weights aint from specific body

so, how u can understand from this, the only way to use dev kit *illegal is change a little weights after rigging

think is better to wait now

thanks for ur reply

 

[ILoveGUPuss]

14 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

It's simple. If you, yourself didn't apply to get a dev kit directly from the creator via the method they or their CSR's offer, ANY other means is illegal and ANY justification is clearly saying you do not mind breaking the rules.

There is no confusion. There are only excuses and lies.

thats why rules and laws everywhere and we use it for self profit

[Noelle Delaunay]

This is actually a sad fact that we've come to the point where people can't create clothes even for themselves if they're using probably any the most commonly used bodies. Creativity put to a stop. You may tell them to just use a default body and they can rig all the clothes they want, but if you're honest to yourself you know that you wouldn't want to switch away from the body that has become your favorite over the years and that you've bought tons of clothes for. People may not even get a response when they apply for a dev kit, which is also sad. Body creators have the right to not even give the kit to anyone (even though the kits might have been shared lots of times already, leaving people the choice to either violate rules or just not create clothes), but in my opinion being this restrictive is just not correlating with the spirit of SL.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Noelle Delaunay

[Extrude Ragu]

I am a creator and usually I would say it's the creators choice and they can do as they please.

However, the anti-competitive nature of the current market does seem to have a negative effect on creativity in SecondLife.

It's a tough one, because you also don't want to spook new body creators from releasing their body. It might be the fact that an initial monopoly on their new niche with special agreements with friends is what makes the project financially viable.

Proposal

Mesh bodies sold on the MP are not required to supply a public dev kit for 1 year after launch. It is up to the creator to choose if they want to make their dev kit public during this time. If they don't, a year seems like a fair amount of time to get themselves established in the clothing market for their body.

After 1 year Creators are required to supply a dev kit with their body. If they choose not to, they are no longer allowed to sell the body.

[Tazzie Tuque]

1 hour ago, Extrude Ragu said:

After 1 year Creators are required to supply a dev kit with their body. If they choose not to, they are no longer allowed to sell the body.

Good luck with this type of thing!  It is not up to LL to decide something like this.  Bottom line is that if a Body Creator does not supply Dev. Kits to clothing makers, then there are no clothes for that body out there (or only those made by the same body maker),  in which case the public will decide if the body is worth it or not,, and if there are no clothes for the body, chances are eventually sales for the body will drop off and become obsolete.  As folks will just not support it or buy it.  The natural law of supply and demand rules here.

[Noelle Delaunay]

1 hour ago, Extrude Ragu said:

After 1 year Creators are required to supply a dev kit with their body. If they choose not to, they are no longer allowed to sell the body.

I think it could also work with incentives. Example: A body creator could apply directly at LL, willing to make their dev kits public, and in return they get prominently promoted, making them kind of semi-official SL bodies.

[Tazzie Tuque]

9 minutes ago, Noelle Delaunay said:

I think it could also work with incentives. Example: A body creator could apply directly at LL, willing to make their dev kits public, and in return they get prominently promoted, making them kind of semi-official SL bodies.

I doubt that would work for many reasons.  Firstly LL is not likely to want to or be interested in taking on more work.  And Secondly this sort of thing is NOT LL's business.  SL was created to allow creators to do their thing, within the TOS guidelines and rules.  They are not likely to care to get involved in the day to day goings on of those in SL unless the TOS is violated.  

[Noelle Delaunay]

16 minutes ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

I doubt [...] is not [...] is NOT [...] are not

We're trying to come up with ideas for solutions for an existing problem. I got what your opinion is, from both posts. It would be great if you could not only contribute negativity. Really

[Tazzie Tuque]

2 minutes ago, Noelle Delaunay said:

We're trying to come up with ideas for solutions for an existing problem. I got what your opinion is, from both posts. It would be great if you could not only contribute negativity. Really

Not being negative.. just being real!  I been here almost 16 years,  I know how things work..  but hey go ahead propose your "solutions",  you are free to do so.  

[Noelle Delaunay]

6 minutes ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

Not being negative.

I'm looking at the quote above and I can't really be convinced of the opposite

 

6 minutes ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

I been here almost 16 years,  I know how things work

Oh, that's how we qualify for discussions nowadays? Damn, I've only been on SL for 15 years. Can we use other metrics? Like, how much money we've put into SL over that time? Or how much time online we've spent?

Edited June 28, 2021 by Noelle Delaunay

[Coffee Pancake]

At this point it has to be abundantly obvious to everyone in the SL fashion industry.

No official dev kits means people end up using pirated dev kits.

You can't have a dev kit unless you can demonstrate you deserve a dev kit. You can't deserve a dev a kit if you can't demonstrate.

The catch 22 is stupid. Linden open source mesh body to end this nonsense. Put them all out of business.

[Orwar]

2 hours ago, Tazzie Tuque said:

It is not up to LL to decide something like this.

   Of course it is. Anything uploaded to SL is technically LL's property, 'tis in the notorious fine-print of the ToS. LL can place whatever requirements they want on whomever they want, and could well pick and choose specific creators if they wanted to.

   Would it be bad for LL if people outside of SL knew they did such things? Possibly, though I don't see how it's worse than the quite general mesh-sharing sites that include a clause for not allowing any of their products to be uploaded to SL, which is already a fairly wide-spread thing. 

   Would it stop active SL creators from making stuff for SL? No idea. The closest comparison I can think of off the top of my head is Blizzard's ToS for WC:III Reforged, where they explicitly claim ownership of any user-made content (because obviously they didn't like how DotA became its own thing and made money that could have been their money!). Did that stop people from making stuff for WC:III? .. Honestly haven't got the foggiest, as I giggled at the dumpster fire of a release and decided not to touch it.

   Personally I quite like it when LL have more of a Laissez-faire approach to creators, but with 40% of the users all using one body, leaving the entire control of who gets to create for it or not with that one creator could well become a creative bottleneck, and thus a revenue bottleneck. 

[Extrude Ragu]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Linden open source mesh body to end this nonsense. Put them all out of business.

I don't think that's going to solve the problem as people are inevitably going to like different styles of bodies or someones going to make a body that the market finds 'better' than whatever LL puts out

[Yukiko Yeshto]

For both kits, reach out to their CSRs. Maitreya is usually quick to answer. Responses by Legacy might take a bit longer.

I couldn't figure out if you created anything at all yet. If you cannot show anything, that might be the reason why you didn't get a response yet. It could help to start creating on the dev kits you have already, then show your WIPs so they can see that you are indeed creating.

[Coffee Pancake]

11 minutes ago, Yukiko Yeshto said:

I couldn't figure out if you created anything at all yet. If you cannot show anything, that might be the reason why you didn't get a response yet. It could help to start creating on the dev kits you have already, then show your WIPs so they can see that you are indeed creating.

Hi ! I pirated your dev kits and made some things, look I'm a real creator, um .. honest ! .. well  .. ok so I did pirate your stuff, or some other creators stuff, but this is cool right? we can be cool now ... not that I'm going to throw all this work in the trash if you say no or anything .. 

[Yukiko Yeshto]

14 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Hi ! I pirated your dev kits and made some things, look I'm a real creator, um .. honest ! .. well  .. ok so I did pirate your stuff, or some other creators stuff, but this is cool right? we can be cool now ... not that I'm going to throw all this work in the trash if you say no or anything .. 

WTH... It was mentioned in the first post that other dev kits have been received within a few hours/days. So, of course, I am not talking about working on pirated dev kits but the ones that have been obtained legally already.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Yukiko Yeshto

[ILoveGUPuss]

On 6/29/2021 at 8:09 AM, Yukiko Yeshto said:

WTH... It was mentioned in the first post that other dev kits have been received within a few hours/days. So, of course, I am not talking about working on pirated dev kits but the ones that have been obtained legally already.

 

On 6/29/2021 at 4:01 AM, Coffee Pancake said:

Hi ! I pirated your dev kits and made some things, look I'm a real creator, um .. honest ! .. well  .. ok so I did pirate your stuff, or some other creators stuff, but this is cool right? we can be cool now ... not that I'm going to throw all this work in the trash if you say no or anything .. 

 

Thats not a problem, rly guys, there is a lot cheap/free dev kits, for me i used avatar core nova at the start its free or 150l, peeps can find others like avatar 2.0. I talk about how its weird, because even if im not a creator, i bought Legacy male for full price, why cant i get dev kit, what are creators of some bodies scared of? Copyboting? Actually not, everyone can find it in google