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Open message to LL: Time to remove Teir levels!


Zoren Manray
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20 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

If I read the Knowledge Base article correctly, I think the next step after one full region is a quarter region at US$44 per month—about the same rate per m² as US$175 per full region.

(Until I looked it up, I thought the next step would be a half region at the regular half-region tier. I think maybe they changed it when they adjusted rates a while back, which would be a step in the right direction.)

 

Hmm, yup.  That next step is 1/4 region now.

image.png.a2e4f0330850498dbd7eb73cc50cc99a.png

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On 6/16/2021 at 5:51 AM, Alwin Alcott said:

According to several Linden posts, the cloud did not bring lower costs .. so that reason for cheaper land isn't valid anymore ( in spite of what was said before we were uplifted.. in that time is sounded as a cost reduction to go to the cloud)

I'm not sure I believe that AWS costs more. I wouldn't hesitate to say those posts are straight up lies.

Even if the "amount spent" is somehow higher, they have to be saving money somewhere, or they simply wouldn't have moved to AWS. No business says "This helps us in no way at all and will cost us money. Let's do it."

Edited by Paul Hexem
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1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'm not sure I believe that AWS costs more. I wouldn't hesitate to say those posts are straight up lies.

Even if the "amount spent" is somehow higher, they have to be saving money somewhere, or they simply wouldn't have moved to AWS. No business says "This helps us in no way at all and will cost us money. Let's do it."

Maybe it's recurring expenses are higher but they got all new equipment with no capital expenditure.  I know the majority of the hosts in the datacenter were in the 10 to 12 year old range.  Then there is all the supporting LAN equipment, firewalls, routers, pasta racks of old cables, etc.  Don't have to fuss with any of that now.  No more filters to clean, storage devices to replace, failed hardware to troubleshoot and repair....  AWS takes all the "fun stuff" out of the equation, I suppose.

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1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

Even if the "amount spent" is somehow higher, they have to be saving money somewhere, or they simply wouldn't have moved to AWS. No business says "This helps us in no way at all and will cost us money. Let's do it."

from what I remember of reading the few Linden blogs/posts about all this. There is marginal to none opex cost saving, the AWS opex is greater than when Linden had its own servers. There is a capex saving, which will accumulate over the long run. Linden have calculated that over this long run, the capex savings will be greater than the opex increase

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1 hour ago, Ardy Lay said:

Maybe it's recurring expenses are higher but they got all new equipment with no capital expenditure.  I know the majority of the hosts in the datacenter were in the 10 to 12 year old range.  Then there is all the supporting LAN equipment, firewalls, routers, pasta racks of old cables, etc.  Don't have to fuss with any of that now.  No more filters to clean, storage devices to replace, failed hardware to troubleshoot and repair....  AWS takes all the "fun stuff" out of the equation, I suppose.

 

53 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

from what I remember of reading the few Linden blogs/posts about all this. There is marginal to none opex cost saving, the AWS opex is greater than when Linden had its own servers. There is a capex saving, which will accumulate over the long run. Linden have calculated that over this long run, the capex savings will be greater than the opex increase

Right. The point is that in the long run, they save time, effort, and money on hardware. All things that contributed to the cost of land in SL (which, if we're basing it on hardware rental costs, is already vastly overpriced).

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2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

from what I remember of reading the few Linden blogs/posts about all this. There is marginal to none opex cost saving, the AWS opex is greater than when Linden had its own servers. There is a capex saving, which will accumulate over the long run. Linden have calculated that over this long run, the capex savings will be greater than the opex increase

Capital expenditures (CAPEX) are major purchases a company makes that are designed to be used over the long term. Operating expenses (OPEX) are the day-to-day expenses a company incurs to keep its business operational.

Edited by Rufferta
I had to look it up. Hope this saves someone else some time.
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On 6/16/2021 at 11:12 AM, Zoren Manray said:

To be clear: I was not talking about making it overall cheaper for land. just making the billing for it more proportional and fair.

Right. I mean, there's another, different discussion to be had about whether Land still should be such a whopping big proportion of the Lab's revenue stream. Every time LL tries to adjust away from that by even slightly raising transaction fees (or whatever), a mob storms the Governor's Mansion with their personal pitchforks and gored oxen. And yet another different discussion could be had about whether the Lab simply demands too much revenue from Second Life, given their long history of squandering vast sums on failed projects and acquisitions.

Another tangent to these threads that makes me crazy every time is the futile contemplation of hardware and hosting costs, as if those were the only expenses on the Lab's balance sheet. For starters, imagine yourself a Linden developer (or HR manager or CFO or intern or whatever) and ask yourself how much you should be paid in terms of region-equivalent hosting fees. Can you command a salary commensurate with the cost of running only a hundred regions? a thousand? ten thousand? Then add on all the employment-related overhead. Then the business and physical plant overhead. Then stuff like license fees. If we're honest with ourselves, we'll stop asking whether there's been some imperceptible change in the cost of hardware/hosting plus or minus at most a fully-loaded intern.

Problem is, the actual topic isn't simple either. It's a marketing question, whether those pricing tiers discourage or promote more spending by customers of the Land product. At one extreme, fees would be assessed at the granularity of each square meter held each day (or hour, or minute), and on a continuous sliding scale of quantity discount. I for one would hate this. I'd spend all my in-world time obsessing over how to shed a 16 here and a 32 there to minimize cost.

Not saying the current system is anything like ideal, but I'll take some kind of quantized tier system, any day. I'm guessing a marketing pro would know how to optimize the offer for revenue—and I'd bet the optimum would be recognizably similar to what we have now.

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31 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

And yet another different discussion could be had about whether the Lab simply demands too much revenue from Second Life, given their long history of squandering vast sums on failed projects and acquisitions.

I wonder what the dollar amount is.

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1,024 sqm - Free
512 sqm  - $4
1024 sqm  - $7
2048 sqm  - $13
4096 sqm  - $22
8192 sqm  - $35
16,384 sqm  = $67
32,792 sqm  = $112
49,152 sqm  = $150
1 Region (66,536 sqm)  = $175
1.25 Region = $219
1.5 Regions = $263
1.75 Regions = $307
2 Regions - $351
2.5 Regions - $439
3 Regions - $527
3.5 Regions - $682.50
4 Regions - $703
4.5 Regions - $791
5 Regions - $879

 

My only issue is them not Pro-rating tier. If for some reason I need to increase my tier 3 days before my tier date I have to pay full price for those 3 days.

So for example if I have 1 sim worth of land and I need to increase it to 1.25 sims worth of land 3 days before my tier date I get charged that extra $44 for only 3 days of use.

Or worse yet if I buy another full sim on top of my currently owned one 3 days before my tier date. I end up having to pay $176 for 3 days.

If they would pro-rate tier accordingly I think it could solve some issues and also generate more revenue for themselves, less people waiting for their tier date to increase.

 

"Oh man someone just put a parcel up super cheap next door to my home I want buy it, but I cant buy it because Ill get charged full price for 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 days before my tier. I sure hope no one buys it so I can when my tier date finally comes"

(Someone shows up and buys the great deal! puts giant ugly privacy screens up and a giant skybox at ground level)

*Sad Panda*

 

 

Edited by Malin Sabra
Corrected $175 to $176 because 2 sims costs you an extra $1
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10 hours ago, Malin Sabra said:

My only issue is them not Pro-rating tier. If for some reason I need to increase my tier 3 days before my tier date I have to pay full price for those 3 days.

It's quite true that this short-term tier increment can be ridiculously expensive. It's not as if we can ever claim the other 27 days for which we paid, if we tier-up three days before end of billing cycle. And that could be a real disincentive to "impulse" land buying.

This doesn't make much practical difference to those of us who've settled on a tier level and will only buy land when there's enough idle tier to cover the new purchase—but we're not the ones that present a growth opportunity for the Lab's Land product. For those folks, pro-rating could matter a lot.

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There are many very interesting points made in this thread.  I've learned a lot more just reading this so tyvm @Zoren Manray for posting this topic. 

In regard to Abandoned Land, every person who contributes actual US Dollars for anything in SL is actually paying part of the cost of keeping all that Abandoned Land online, which I imagine it is a very large expense but it IS contiguous and can't be just shut off.   If LL could turn back time I'd hope they would have included a protected public access portion or some sort of road/path/flight route infrastructure through every Region like they have done along the water edged Regions. As there is none, it falls on all of us who contribute financially to bear the cost of keeping all that land. 

If we want to reduce the cost of tier we can help by improving that wasted resource of Abandoned Land as land groups whose purpose is to make it more appealing to people who are shopping for land.  Just looking at the calculations and tables above is financial proof.  A land group with a covenant can replace a land Covenant (as on private Estate land) and control certain powers, such as the use of banlines, security orbs, et cetera.  SL's current Group structure does need a good overhaul to help land groups with a few issues but a good understanding among responsible Group owners can currently compensate for those drawbacks.  

Campbell Coast (South coast of Corsica's big island) is comprised of 90% former Abandoned Land and has been experimenting with different ways of sharing/distributing the cost of tier and group-owned land does appear to be the keystone which can support the revitalization of Mainland by acquiring Abandoned Land and improving it en masse. 

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Just chiming in. Recently I moved and upgraded my tier to 1/4 sim cover the new land. Had like 1500 sm tier leftover.

Then more land in the region came open, a 2048. You see the issue? Either I upgraded to Half a region, which would double my costs or I simply can't expand. The tier doubling at that level is a real hinderance to steady expansion.

I ended up watching the lot until it was purchased and repurchased by land flippers and the price was raised three times, until the last one answered my request and allowed me to purchase the "excess" land I couldn't keep. Then I had to abandon that so I could buy the rest to fill my tier. We all know that owning excess land for even one second trips the "You are this tier level and must pay" trigger. It was really not fun jumping through all the hoops.

Edited to add, even if they just removed the "Instant trigger" for higher land tier and set it to something like 1 day, then I could have scooped it up, and sold off or abandoned what I couldn't keep. I would have saved a couple bucks by not having to pay for the multiple land flippers price raises.

I paid way more than I should have, had to work at it for weeks and deal with several land flippers, just to get a little 1500 sm lot because I couldn't just buy the whole 2048 lot unless I doubled my tier.

I paid more but SL made more due to all the land flipping and ads and Realtors tiers etc.. Now that little abandoned strip is worthless and unusable except as extra LI. No one has bought it yet.

I think we just need a couple more tier levels in the system or a way to add land at the same tier without doubling the cost. Not even looking for an extra price break, just don't want to have to double my land fees just to expand a little. Maybe something like "Supplemental land up to  available at the same amount per square meter." LL would make more money as I'll be paying for more land, buying more land, and not getting the next tier level discount. Then I could expand as fast or slow as I wanted and jump tier when I was ready.

Edited by Artorius Constantine
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2 hours ago, Artorius Constantine said:

Just chiming in. Recently I moved and upgraded my tier to 1/4 sim cover the new land. Had like 1500 sm tier leftover.

Then more land in the region came open, a 2048. You see the issue? Either I upgraded to Half a region, which would double my costs or I simply can't expand. The tier doubling at that level is a real hinderance to steady expansion.

I ended up watching the lot until it was purchased and repurchased by land flippers and the price was raised three times, until the last one answered my request and allowed me to purchase the "excess" land I couldn't keep. Then I had to abandon that so I could buy the rest to fill my tier. We all know that owning excess land for even one second trips the "You are this tier level and must pay" trigger. It was really not fun jumping through all the hoops.

Edited to add, even if they just removed the "Instant trigger" for higher land tier and set it to something like 1 day, then I could have scooped it up, and sold off or abandoned what I couldn't keep. I would have saved a couple bucks by not having to pay for the multiple land flippers price raises.

I paid way more than I should have, had to work at it for weeks and deal with several land flippers, just to get a little 1500 sm lot because I couldn't just buy the whole 2048 lot unless I doubled my tier.

I paid more but SL made more due to all the land flipping and ads and Realtors tiers etc.. Now that little abandoned strip is worthless and unusable except as extra LI. No one has bought it yet.

I think we just need a couple more tier levels in the system or a way to add land at the same tier without doubling the cost. Not even looking for an extra price break, just don't want to have to double my land fees just to expand a little. Maybe something like "Supplemental land up to  available at the same amount per square meter." LL would make more money as I'll be paying for more land, buying more land, and not getting the next tier level discount. Then I could expand as fast or slow as I wanted and jump tier when I was ready.

Just a thought - in no way to bolster up the tier level jumps.

If you had bought that 2048 with an alt and paid tier on just that (or 2 using the free premium tier) and had them join a land group, it could have been yours?

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14 hours ago, Emma Krokus said:

Just a thought - in no way to bolster up the tier level jumps.

If you had bought that 2048 with an alt and paid tier on just that (or 2 using the free premium tier) and had them join a land group, it could have been yours?

But then you end up paying a huge amount for an alts premium just to get that land. You can't win!

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3 hours ago, Ziggy Starsmith said:

But then you end up paying a huge amount for an alts premium just to get that land. You can't win!

I tried to do the sums - please correct if my math and rotation challenged brain messed up here

2048 tier = $13 / month = $156 /year

---

2 premium alts = $99 each = $198 for 2 per year

save up stipend - L$300 / week / alt = L$31,200 / year for 2

exchange to dollars @ L$250 / $ = $124.80 from 

deduct this from premium cost - $198 - 124.80 = $73.20

---

(I am ignoring the L$1000 bonus as it's only paid out the first year of premium)

 

So, to my mind that makes sense - caveats: if you have the money up front, and are sure you will use the land for a full year...

I'd welcome corrections and comments.

Emma :) 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Emma Krokus said:

- caveats: if you have the money up front, and are sure you will use the land for a full year...

Removed my long winded and wordy reply and replaced it with this. It says it better than I ever could.

 

208204317_10227574922778329_4309943186450912112_n.jpg

Edited by Artorius Constantine
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14 minutes ago, Artorius Constantine said:

I not only don't have the money up front to spend, I don't want to increase my bills and stress by adding another premium account that would need to be shepherded with money and tier fees every month. I live on VERY limited funds with a low stress lifestyle.

My monthly expenses, in order of highest to lowest, are; Food, Internet, SL Tier, Tobacco, Water (I have to drive 14 miles to get water), Booze (almost as important as water) and SL Premmie (paid yearly). And I have to plan 3 months out to make sure I can cover that $99 bill.

If you have your own Land Group and your current land is deeded to that Group you can do it by using a Tier Rental agency.  You pay per week (@L$0.225/m2) and the agency will have someone Join your land Group and donate the tier you need to acquire the land (Buy for Group) for a week and you can then subdivide and abandon any excess and boot the tier agent from your Group.  There are some very reputable agencies who provide this service.  I think this would have been an ideal solution for any Resident facing your circumstances.  There are also agencies which will pay you for any excess tier you are carrying for as long as you want.

I recently emailed one agent who has posted a Forum topic about the service in 2018 and they do still provide this service. ---> 

 

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1 hour ago, Artorius Constantine said:

I used to rent out my excess tier to one of those groups. Not a bad deal. Been burned one to many times to have anyone but myself between me and LL these days.

Can't afford to have my store vanish because someone else quit SL.

I don't understand how that could happen using a tier rental service?  You'd only need the extra tier for as long as it took to buy the land, subdivide what you don't need and abandon the extra, then the temporary tier donor can be ejected from your Group and its still all yours ♥ 

I never usually have much extra tier to donate to anyone else's Group.  I can usually find a way to use it 😉

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Is the fixed, big steps in tier causing so much abandoned land? People buy land that does not fit the next level, but are a few m over. The land is divided and abandoned. We get all those useless abandoned plots.

If I pay 22 us for tier pr month now, it is a big jump up. If I want 3-400 m to fill out a corner, it increases to 35 us. If it was an even raise, I could pay like 25 us?

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Oh, you mean rent some extra tier just for the momentary purchase. Well then I'd have to pay them, thus adding more costs and making the process even more expensive and complicated, just to buy and abandon land. Would what they charge be less than the land flipper mark ups? No clue.

My way worked fine, fine as it could do anyway, the first 2 land flippers just never replied. Your way would work as well, at an extra cost.

Smaller steps on the tiers would eliminate all those issues.

Back when I was a Mainland Realtor I was paying for massive tier (over $3k a month at one point as well as having tier from other owners whose land I managed) and flipping regions almost daily. I had a ton of tier and to maximize it's profit I'd rent out the excess when I wasn't using it. Paying for 2 or 3 regions worth of unused tier is not a good idea. 😃 The tier doubling really gets expensive above 10 regions.

A tier discount is a good thing, a forced doubling of the fees to pay for land you don't want, can't get, can't afford, whatever, just stops people from expanding. I know a lot of people would snag up the odd bits of land in their region if didn't double their tier to do it. LL would make more money and give less tier discounts as the discount wouldn't be applicable below the next level. Forcing the double tier fee is a blocker, it should be "When you own this much land you will get this extra discount because you own so much land". What we have now is, "You only want another 1024? Too bad, you gotta pay for half a region!". It's a show stopper. They are preventing people from expanding unless they (players) want to pay a massive double fee.

 

Another way to look at it is this, instead of being forced to step all the way up to the next tier you could keep buying land at the same tier you are currently paying. All you want with no extra fees or discounts. Then WHEN you have enough land to hit the next level you call LL and say "Jump me up so I can get that sweet next tier level discount." Then the tiers would be as they should be, a stepped discount for owning more land, not a way to force double fees down peoples throats for land they don't want/ can't afford/ whatever.

Edited by Artorius Constantine
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1 hour ago, Artorius Constantine said:

Oh, you mean rent some extra tier just for the momentary purchase. Well then I'd have to pay them, thus adding more costs and making the process even more expensive and complicated, just to buy and abandon land. Would what they charge be less than the land flipper mark ups? No clue.

My way worked fine, fine as it could do anyway, the first 2 land flippers just never replied. Your way would work as well, at an extra cost.

Yes, but not a very high cost in your situation, only L$77 extra.  I think you only needed the extra m2 to acquire the 2048, and only needed it for the time it took to acquire, subdivide and Abandon the extra.  To "Buy for Group" the 2048 you only actually need 1843 m2 because the 10% Group bonus is pre-applied.  You already have 1500 extra tier so you'd only need to rent 344 m2 for a week (minimum time) 344 m2 x L$0.225 = L$77  per week or (approx) USD $1.44 per month to keep the extra 344 m2 (the entire extra 2048 m2) which is considerably less than tiering up an extra 512 which costs an extra USD $4.00 per month.

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