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listening without tipping: yea or nay?


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46 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

In our bar we have a licences to cover both live bands and recorded music. The bar licence also covers any DJs we hire too. We also have a licence for the internet stuff too. Does cost a small fortune but some we can write off.

I don't want to ask how much for your licenses as it's your business but I was looking up the cost and what is called a BLANKET LICENSE from ASCAP it says is about $225 a year.   This link was for some "fitness" club thing though but it is the ASCAP site.

A "blanket license" is a license which allows the music user to perform any or all of the millions of works in the ASCAP repertory, as much or as little as they like. Licensees pay an annual fee for the license. The blanket license saves music users the paperwork, trouble and expense.

https://www.ascap.com/music-users/types/fitness-landing-page?gclid=CjwKCAjw_JuGBhBkEiwA1xmbRWL3EqpqwNrZvPcm8W3r-Cj8Qg1fHbCQkHVAY4FnsAsUZNDJhDUUKBoC6QkQAvD_BwE

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It seems to me from that ASCAP site, LL could get the license and most DJs from the US would be covered.  Especially since they do have info on streaming music into SL, they could easily provide licensing.

Fortunately, most popular live-streaming platforms, such as YouTube, Facebook, Instagram Live, Soundcloud and Twitch are licensed by ASCAP. If individual performers, ensembles and venues only use a licensed platform to stream their content, no other ASCAP licensing is necessary for that streaming activity.

Who could we ask about that?

 

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2 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

I don't understand what Alwin is saying by "if he pays for his streaming and music all is covered...etc"...what does that mean?  It's broken English and I cannot understand what he is saying.

It sounds like you and he and saying if an internet radio station plays in the Netherlands that is licensed, all the DJ's have to be licensed too, which is ridiculous and I've never heard of that.

 

Sorry i don't meet your requirements.
A DJ has to pay for streaming (=broadcasting) ánd use of music. Not that difficult.

 

 

2 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Also, many club venues have a licensed streamed.

come on.. not in SL... even rarer than licensed DJ's

 

 

2 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

You and Alwin are trying to put the internet music laws on what is supposed to be the big internet radio laws for Apple, Spotify, IHeart Radio, etc.  onto people who don't have enough listeners to qualify as a business.  Now, the 24/7 Clubs in SL do have enough listeners and I believe many of those are licensed.  

Yes... because IT IS THE SAME laws  for all. It has nothing to do if something is a business or not. It has to do with a streamer(every SL DJ is), and use of royalties for playing the music.


 

Edited by Alwin Alcott
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42 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I'm pretty sure the whole world doesn't live in the Netherlands.

is you read well, i mention it that way to stop the confusement between the US and others.
The world is larger than the US, many of them forget that often.
Rules and requirements are different in Europe... even in the whole USA it's not the same.

 

Edited by Alwin Alcott
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25 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

It seems to me from that ASCAP site, LL could get the license and most DJs from the US would be covered.  Especially since they do have info on streaming music into SL, they could easily provide licensing.

Fortunately, most popular live-streaming platforms, such as YouTube, Facebook, Instagram Live, Soundcloud and Twitch are licensed by ASCAP. If individual performers, ensembles and venues only use a licensed platform to stream their content, no other ASCAP licensing is necessary for that streaming activity.

Who could we ask about that?

 

I was thinking the same this morning, Rowan, exactly.  LL could have one, or a venue in SL.  Only one license is needed per business.  As others have said, a radio station or business gets the license, not it's individual employees.  Even Kimmi stated such who runs a real bar business.  

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16 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I was thinking the same this morning, Rowan, exactly.  LL could have one, or a venue in SL.  Only one license is needed per business.  As others have said, a radio station or business gets the license, not it's individual employees.  Even Kimmi stated such who runs a real bar business.  

That wouldn't necessarily cover DJs from other countries, as Alwin mentioned.  

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1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

I don't want to ask how much for your licenses as it's your business but I was looking up the cost and what is called a BLANKET LICENSE from ASCAP it says is about $225 a year.   This link was for some "fitness" club thing though but it is the ASCAP site.

A "blanket license" is a license which allows the music user to perform any or all of the millions of works in the ASCAP repertory, as much or as little as they like. Licensees pay an annual fee for the license. The blanket license saves music users the paperwork, trouble and expense.

https://www.ascap.com/music-users/types/fitness-landing-page?gclid=CjwKCAjw_JuGBhBkEiwA1xmbRWL3EqpqwNrZvPcm8W3r-Cj8Qg1fHbCQkHVAY4FnsAsUZNDJhDUUKBoC6QkQAvD_BwE

We go through SOCAN up here. SO we CAN play music! :D

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14 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

That wouldn't necessarily cover DJs from other countries, as Alwin mentioned.  

If that DJ from the Netherland's is in the main venue's stream which is paying the royalties, I am not sure why Alwin and others from the Netherlands say they must pay as well, that is doubling paying for one song?  When a song plays on a licensed radio for instance, it receives payment only once whether one or two hundred million people hear it and you see the name of the song go by on the internet just as you do in the SL clubs in local chat.  I am not sure what Alwin is saying about his country but I'd gather he'd just better turn the music off if he understands it.

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12 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

  I am not sure what Alwin is saying about his country

that is clear
 

13 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

 but I'd gather he'd just better turn the music off if he understands it.

you'r absurd.

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41 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

If that DJ from the Netherland's is in the main venue's stream which is paying the royalties, I am not sure why Alwin and others from the Netherlands say they must pay as well, that is doubling paying for one song?  When a song plays on a licensed radio for instance, it receives payment only once whether one or two hundred million people hear it and you see the name of the song go by on the internet just as you do in the SL clubs in local chat.  I am not sure what Alwin is saying about his country but I'd gather he'd just better turn the music off if he understands it.

The laws are different in other countries?  As he's explained.

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1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

He'd be better off not listening then as I can't help him.  I'm not under his laws.  

Not talking about listening to music.  We're talking about DJs and what licensing they need IN THEIR COUNTRY.

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1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

It seems to me from that ASCAP site, LL could get the license and most DJs from the US would be covered.  Especially since they do have info on streaming music into SL, they could easily provide licensing.

ASCAP is one of several licensing organizations for the ORIGINAL WRITERS/ARTISTS ONLY.  It is for songwriters, and does not apply to anyone recording the music. And ASCAP is NOT what you need to broadcast on the Internet. There are also BMI, SESAC and other organizations that represent the original songwriters.  An ASCAP license would be rather useless alone.  To comply with every original songwriter's copyrights and rights to a royalty you would need licenses for societies all over the world. Plus many artists are not members of any societies, set up to protect their copyrights.  Dead artists with no family interests also are not part of these societies - although family and relatives think they deserve royalties for music written by a family member.  This is one reason artists sell their entire copyrighted music library to publishers - to avoid the legal battles family members will start.  Bob Dylan just sold his catalog, as he is getting old.

To broadcast/stream music you need an entirely different license, called a statutory license. 

The statutory licenses relevant to service providers can be found in sections 112 and 114 of the Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. §§ 112 and 114. The rates and terms applicable to the statutory licenses for service providers can be found on our website. Currently, SoundExchange is the only entity authorized by Congress to administer the statutory licenses described in sections 112 and 114.

That's only for the USA, BUT they also claim if you are streaming from any other country in the world, and your stream can be heard by residents of the USA, that you still need to pay the MRB fee.  The fee runs from $1000 to $100,000 USD per year, depending on your listening audience. 

I already pay royalties to ASCAP, BMI, and/or SESAC. Why do I have to pay SoundExchange, too?

Every musical recording embodies two distinct copyrighted works. The first is the underlying musical composition, comprised of the written notes and lyrics (a “musical work”). The songwriter and/or his or her music publisher usually own the copyright in the musical work. The second copyrighted work is the actual recording itself – the sounds, including the recording artist’s interpretation of the musical composition, and the creative efforts of the producer, sound engineers and background musicians (a “sound recording”). A copyright holder, whether a label or an independent musician, owns the copyright or  “master” to the sound recording. SoundExchange collects and distributes royalties associated with the sound recordings made by services operating under one of the statutory licenses. By contrast, ASCAP, BMI and SESAC collect and distribute royalties associated with the public performance of musical works. A digital audio transmission of a musical recording will usually require a license for both the sound recording and the underlying musical work.

I am quoting from the Sound Exchange "Licensing 101" web page.  I suggest all of you here read that page, so you have some idea what the laws really are.   Speculation based on not understanding the existing laws is a waste of our time.

https://www.soundexchange.com/service-provider/licensing-101/

Edited by Jaylinbridges
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4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Not talking about listening to music.  We're talking about DJs and what licensing they need IN THEIR COUNTRY.

He said he can't listen to a DJ because they are a broadcaster or something or other and the DJ must have a license, and no, in America, it's the venue or the business that must have the license and not each employee too plus he believes no clubs in SL have a license which is accusing everyone and I am not doing any such thing nor going there.   The songs come across in digital print in local chat.   As far as his posts they are not very understandable and I cannot help him period.  It's his countries laws he has to follow and I have a busy life today.  I cannot help the man.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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12 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

He said he can't listen to a DJ because they are a broadcaster or something or other and the DJ must have a license, and no, in America, it's the venue or the business that must have the license and not each employee too plus he believes no clubs in SL have a license which is accusing everyone and I am not doing any such thing nor going there.   The songs come across in digital print in local chat.   As far as his posts they are not very understandable and I cannot help him period.  It's his countries laws he has to follow and I have a busy life today.  I cannot help the man.  

That's not what he said at all nor does he need your help.

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4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

That's not what he said at all nor does he need your help.

K.  Then he can stop quoting me as I usually have him blocked anyways because I am not tuning in from the Netherlands so it doesn't concern me.  

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1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

K.  Then he can stop quoting me as I usually have him blocked anyways because I am not tuning in from the Netherlands so it doesn't concern me.  

You started the confusion by refusing to take my responses as they were intended : dutch rules, no tiny world things.
And now again a confusine line... you block me because you'r not tuning in from the Netherlands... weird.

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18 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Why does anyone have to blather on about licensing in this thread?  As always the thread has turned into nothing about what the original post was about.  If discussion needs to be said people need to go to the correct thread.  No wonder no one can find anything on this forum. Why even bother putting a thread title in? LOL!

Yeah, way too much off topic about the Netherland's especially which is neither here nor there really.  No DJ in SL is going to ask people coming into a club, are you from the Netherlands because I don't have a special license for you.  That's just not gonna happen.  But, if you want to continue with this @Alwin Alcott, make your own thread.  

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16 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

the DJ's áre a broadcasting radio station in the Netherlands.

@Alwin Alcott This is what you said.  We cannot help what DJ's are to you in the Netherlands. DJ'S are not a broadcasting radio station in America, not hardly.

I blocked you a long time ago because you were rude many times.  

And, I agree with the others now, make you own thread about it.  This is not the thread for this to keep going on off topic about what DJ's are in the Netherlands.

Silent Mistwalker has the correct information in several posts in this thread but you keep avoiding them and other's with the correct information.

You are a grown up.  If you are not supposed to be listening in the Netherlands, don't tune in.

Edited by FairreLilette
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19 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Why does anyone have to blather on about licensing in this thread?  As always the thread has turned into nothing about what the original post was about.  If discussion needs to be said people need to go to the correct thread.  No wonder no one can find anything on this forum. Why even bother putting a thread title in? LOL!

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Anyway, IP issues apart, if I attend a club or anything for more than a few minutes I expect to tip the performers, and certainly if I attend a performance with a friend, I do, even though I might not even listen to the performance myself.

On the other hand, I am very aware that not everyone in SL is able to treat L$ the way some of us  can.

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