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listening without tipping: yea or nay?


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9 minutes ago, Han Held said:

I'm not sure why you kids needed to blather on for 5 pages when the correct answer was in the 2nd post ...

 

Why does anyone have to blather on about licensing in this thread?  As always the thread has turned into nothing about what the original post was about.  If discussion needs to be said people need to go to the correct thread.  No wonder no one can find anything on this forum. Why even bother putting a thread title in? LOL!

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On 6/9/2021 at 5:14 PM, Stephanie Misfit said:

I have a good friend in SL who is a DJ ( real life as well as SL) and I know he loves tips but he is also just happy if people come and listen to the music. I think it is better to have people come and listen, rather than have an empty room, even if not everyone can tip. There are some venues in SL that are packed to the rafters but most aren't so the traffic will count for something too, getting a following for the DJ and the venue. People might TP in their friends, or they might tell their friends about it afterwards. Of course if you can tip, do so, but not everyone in SL has lindens. 

Hey, out of curiosity... where are those packed venues because I never find people when I go out and about lol

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11 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Why does anyone have to blather on about licensing in this thread?  As always the thread has turned into nothing about what the original post was about.  If discussion needs to be said people need to go to the correct thread.  No wonder no one can find anything on this forum. Why even bother putting a thread title in? LOL!

Why blather on about blathering?  Why not just state your opinion instead?  This ^^^^ is just as much off topic as any of the posts about licensing for music in SL.

Some are saying because there isn't proper licensing then no payment should be given or that people shouldn't even go.

Edited by JanuarySwan
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8 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Why does anyone have to blather on about licensing in this thread?  As always the thread has turned into nothing about what the original post was about.  If discussion needs to be said people need to go to the correct thread.  No wonder no one can find anything on this forum. Why even bother putting a thread title in? LOL!

Licensing is highly relevant.  

I think if they are licensed, they should be tipped.

If they are not operating legally, they should not be tipped.

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ANNOUNCEMENT:

REAL LIFE IS NOT SECOND LIFE, AND SECOND LIFE IS NOT REAL LIFE !

This was all covered in the earlier thread referenced here, but some never learn.

Remember, none of the self righteous posters in this thread actually DJ in SL, or understand the broadcast industry, or the struggling artists.  It's the blind leading the blind.

BTW if I were to obtain a Sound Exchange license to DJ in SL, it would cost me about $1600 USD/year if the new Sound Exchange fees increase retroactively when announced on June 14.  I would need about 400,000 Lindens/year from tips to just cover my expenses. And that would not cover the copyrights from the songwriters and bands that created the original song. 

Most DJ's do NOT broadcast on the internet and their stream is private, and usually turned off.  If you can't find me, you can only listen in SL for my 2 hr sets a few times/week.   Internet broadcasting means you have a web site, you beg for donations to support your station, with Pay Pal, credit card and even Bitcoin apps to pay.  Some even give you a PO Box to send cash, in case your illegally here and have no bank account, or your income is all from selling drugs.  And like all DJ's, their music is given to them for promotion for free.  That is what radio stations have always done.  A DJ is not a radio station.

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6 minutes ago, Desiree Moonwinder said:

Licensing is highly relevant.  

I think if they are licensed, they should be tipped.

If they are not operating legally, they should not be tipped.

Ok…so now we get to go around asking to prove they have a license before we tip them? Please…I have better things to do with my time especially since I’m not going to be the one getting sued and neither are they…not one person is getting sued for streaming music in SL without a license.  If you have an example of someone who did though I’d love to hear it.

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5 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Most DJ's do NOT broadcast on the internet and their stream is private, and usually turned off.  If you can't find me, you can only listen in SL for my 2 hr sets a few times/week.

this is the same as a real life DJ spinning in a real life club. Typically the real life club will have a license covering their venue. DJ restricted to commercial works covered by the license

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1 hour ago, Tarina Sewell said:

Unless you have a business-specific plan, songs on streaming platforms are generally licensed for single use. You need to purchase a Public Performance License (PPL) to play songs legally in your business locations.

you failed to mention who they are suing:

Pro Music Rights, LLC (Pro Music Rights) announced today that it has filed 10 separate copyright infringement actions against music streaming services, arising out of the unauthorized public performance of its members’ copyrighted musical works. Lodged with the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York, the bundle of lawsuits names Apple, Google, YouTube, Amazon, SoundCloud, Pandora, Deezer, 7digital, iHeartradio and Rhapsody as defendants. 

I don't see Second Life or Joe's Bar & Grill on the list. I wonder why?

This is a bunch of shady New York lawyers trying to make a buck by suing the largest Internet distributors of music in the world.  They will lose, but still collect fees from the artists they claim to protect.

This tells me all I need to know about "Pro Music Rights" :

PRO MUSIC RIGHTS, LLC

 

  • Headquarters: Naples, Florida
  • Website: promusicrights.com/
  • CEO: Jake Noch
  • Employees: 10
  • Organization: PRI

And what artists do they represent?  None that I would ever play - mostly Hip-Hop.

With an estimated 7.4% market share, Pro Music Rights has rights to license about two million works from top artists including A$AP Rocky, Wiz Khalifa, Pharrell, Young Jeezy, Juelz Santana, Lil Yachty, Soulja Boy, Nipsey Hussle, 2 Chainz, Migos, Gucci Mane and Fall Out Boy, among others.

Edited by Jaylinbridges
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I'm a blues fan.  I appreciate DJ's who have knowledge about the musicians or a story about the tune, etc., to share with us.  Certain  DJ'S were so interesting and fun that they would MAKE me want to remember to come to their sets on certain nights!  The DJ's who feel that simply 'greeting' you as soon as you land outside of the club, and playing tunes one after another with nothing interesting to say, I simply don't feel inspired to tip.

One thing that I honestly find irritating and WILL make me leave a club, is when the 'hosts' constantly remind or badger you to tip the venue and the performer, and then the performer reminds you to tip the 'amazing' host, who has basically just been saying hi to people and bugging us to tip.   

My answer to the posted question is no, I don't feel it is wrong to not tip occasionally.  Tip when you have enjoyed the music, the banter, etc.  Tip what is affordable to you.  

 

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2 hours ago, Tarina Sewell said:

 

As stated in several posts, to stream music you need a license.  That you do not find it unethical that many do not have said license is .. really a statement to your morals.  So I would say, your statement is profoundly inaccurate.

Where did I say I found it unethical that those who are required by law to have a broadcaster's license don't have one? I haven't said any such thing. It's not the DJs that are required to have the broadcasting license, it's the radio station's license to broadcast.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_license

https://www.fcc.gov/media/radio/public-and-broadcasting

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8 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

 

If you use the venues stream, the venue needs the license not the DJ.

not when those are in two seperate countries, yes when it's a RL venue.
The streamer connects to a foreign server, but from his location, and that last determens where the license to broadcast has to be paid.(ánd his royalty payment)

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8 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

. It's not the DJs that are required to have the broadcasting license, it's the radio station's license to broadcast.

the DJ's áre a broadcasting radio station in the Netherlands.

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2 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Most DJ's do NOT broadcast on the internet

ALL Second life DJ's broadcast on the internet. Those are NOT private, EVERYBODY can connect to your streamadress.
Even when you put a password access on it... it's still broadcasting ánd making music public for others.

(oh and ... DJ in SL = to internetradio stations in RL ...they are nót to compare to venue DJ's . Venue;s in SL are nothing for the law, the streaming is the issue)

Edited by Alwin Alcott
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13 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

not when those are in two seperate countries, yes when it's a RL venue.
The streamer connects to a foreign server, but from his location, and that last determens where the license to broadcast has to be paid.(ánd his royalty payment)

Edited by Rowan Amore
misunderstood
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4 hours ago, Tarina Sewell said:

 

As stated in several posts, to stream music you need a license.  That you do not find it unethical that many do not have said license is .. really a statement to your morals.  So I would say, your statement is profoundly inaccurate.

I have to say I agree, but with a different conclusion.

My moral compass isn't registering anything but approval for the person downloading a requested youtube song to fulfil a request to bring and share a bit of joy. 

My moral compass starts moving when poverty, inequalities and injustices are under consideration and there are enough of them around to flat line any moral concerns about SL DJs. 

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9 hours ago, Han Held said:

I'm not sure why you kids needed to blather on for 5 pages when the correct answer was in the 2nd post ...

 

I'm not sure why someone with so much forums experience as you have, can jump to that conclusion.
There are threads going on in some forums since Abraham Lincoln* invented the Internet about whether or not to place a comma in a particular sentence, in threads that where originally about whether or not Edison really invented some sort of light bulb or if Jules Verne was right with his speculations about the moon in his new novel.

😁

 

* or was it All Gore?

Edited by Sid Nagy
Me waves at Han.
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1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

 No way in heck anyone could do that in SL.  

SL isn't the issue, but the right to broadcast license, ánd the right to make music public license. ( i'm only talking about the Netherlands) as broadcaster you have to pay for two licenses, as RL Club DJ only one (or the venue)
A SL DJ is always a broadcaster.
If he pays for his streaming and music all is covered,no matter where the listeners are.

Just tmore to think about ... it's not allowed to use music that's on the market for home use ( all normal CD stores ....)
For bigger audiences, DJ's have to let their software register the songs, by artist, title, and time played, to calculate the royalties

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24 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

If he pays for his streaming and music all is covered,no matter where the listeners are.

And there lies the real problem.
It is not possible to obtain a license to stream to all countries of the world, which is possible trough SL.
The most extended international Internet broadcasting license service I found so far covers 37 countries.

My conclusion: It is hardly if not totally (im)possible to dj legally in SL or stream to your land if others than you and your RL family have access to it .
But of course it is mainly on the same level as 'borrowing'  textures and models for SL on the Internet.

Edited by Sid Nagy
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As I predicted, the CRB (Copyright Royalty Board) which all US broadcasters must pay a fee to broadcast, has just released their fee schedules for the next 5 years, retroactive to Jan 1, 2021.  Basic minimum fee is now $1000 USD/year, doubled from prior $500 USD.  Other fees on a per song basis also increased.  How many SL DJ's are going to pay $1000 USD upfront, to the CRB, before the July deadline?  IF you DO NOT broadcast 24/7 on the internet, and have NO web page or other indication of activity, and your stream is private - the answer is NONE.  And as Sid points out, this does not cover all countries for USA broadcasters.

These fees don't apply to SL-only DJ's,  despite what some here are trying to tell you.  Their motive is to end DJing in SL, because they couldn't make it years ago, or they live in a country with paranoia as a national trait.

Here is the web writeup from:  https://www.broadcastlawblog.com

The Copyright Royalty Board (CRB) released its long-awaited decision on streaming royalties for 2021-2025, finding that the rates applicable to both broadcasters that simulcast their over-the-air signals on the internet and other non-interactive webcasters will go up. The per performance (per song, per listener) royalty rate increases to $.0021 for non-subscription streams, up from the current $.0018.  In another change, the minimum per-channel fee is going up to $1,000 for each channel that is streamed (from $500).  For each entity that is relying on this compulsory license, their maximum aggregate per-channel minimum fee is $100,000 (up from $50,000).  That means that, each January, a company relying on this license will have to pay $1,000 per channel that they stream up to the maximum $100,000.   These yearly up-front payments will be credited against actual usage fees, which are paid monthly.  Nonprofit webcasters will be subject to the same minimum per-channel fees.  However, a webcaster that is a nonprofit entity is permitted to stream on any channel up to 159,140 aggregate tuning hours per month for the yearly $1,000 minimum.  That permits a nonprofit webcaster to average approximately 200 simultaneous listeners on a channel before having to pay for streaming at the commercial per performance rate.  Webcasters who are affiliated with the Corporation for Public Broadcasting are not subject to these fees, as CPB has negotiated a separate blanket license that covers its affiliates.  Payments under these new rates will likely be retroactive to January 1 of this year.

 

Edited by Jaylinbridges
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1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

These fees don't apply to SL-only DJ's,  despite what some here are trying to tell you.  Their motive is to end DJing in SL, because they couldn't make it years ago, or they live in a country with paranoia as a national trait.

Where do you read that it does not apply for SL-dj's?
1. SL-djs ain't strictly nonprofit.
2. The text you quote states that non profits have to pay USD 1,000 a year as well, but have better terms then.

I'm just explaining that the legal matter behind dj-ing in SL is complicated, not only under Dutch law but internationally as well.
And for the rest, for me: whatever floats your boat. 
DJ as much as you like, where you like in or outside SL, with pirated copies or not, abusing streaming services like Spotify or not, with or without appropriate licensing.
I'm fine with that, but I'm not the law enforcement.

I have written more than enough about this matter by now, here and in that other thread, and I tiptoe out of this discussion.

Edited by Sid Nagy
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30 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Where do you read that it does not apply for SL-dj's?

And where do you read that it does apply to SL DJ's?  The CRB new rules and fees are clearly for USA based internet broadcasters that have a large public listening audience.  Also many "non-profits" pay their CEO's and staff, and gain non-profit status through tax loopholes and phony deductions.  Show me where the laws specifically single out private SL DJ's, or for that matter private residents with a home stream in SL.  

Now I need to hire a door bouncer to check the country status of SL visitors to my club.  We won't allow any Dutch nationals in, because they will try to turn all us lawbreakers into... the Dutch police?

LOL

The real answer is Common Sense.  If you look at the fees for non-profits, they allow over 200 listeners 24 hrs per day every day for a year, for their $1000/yr license.  

The typical SL DJ has 20 listeners (on a good night) for 2 hrs, once a week. Run the numbers and tell me the CRB is thinking of someone that is on the air 0.1% of the time they allow for non-profits.  Common sense - the same thing any court of law would apply if it ever came to a civil lawsuit.

 

Edited by Jaylinbridges
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Todays SL Dj's can't expect to be tipped by everyone. SL Auto mix, playlist DJ's are a dime a dozen. 

Mixing off a live deck with licensed music and software without breaking LL TOS is another thing. 

I mix live, I do it to entertain and SL is not real clubs. You are usually contracted by a real club with a set payment per evening, or for services. Tipping doesn't very often happen and more often not allowed these days. 

In SL yes tipping a DJ is courtesy. At least for a DJ who takes live requests, is active over the mic, professional, and keeps people entertained. 

If you raise a stink about tips, you can be assured you won't have many staying for sets very long, nor returning. 

If you are brought into a venue to DJ by a sim owner, they are interested in how you maintain the flow or users and if they are satisfied. If people are they will tip, but never are they required to or obligated in any way. Some can't afford it or some not feeling the vibe, or some simple tight wads, which in any case is simply a factor that won't change.

Your focus should be entertaining as an entertainer. 

On the note of licensed music. You are covered if under an umbrella licensed service.  If you rip it off youtube or a cd it is not licensed for broadcast and yes the owners can have LL take action. Especially if a person is cashing out for RL profit it becomes crime, regardless of where you are. 

It best to cover yourself with a service that has the legal licenses in place. Not use ripped software. I have DJ'd on SL o the main account and for official linden events, and yes you better have the docs in that case. IT not expensive to be signed up with one that is licensed for broadcast through reputable software. 

 

 

Edited by anthonytorino
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5 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:
6 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

If he pays for his streaming and music all is covered,no matter where the listeners are.

And there lies the real problem.

I don't understand what Alwin is saying by "if he pays for his streaming and music all is covered...etc"...what does that mean?  It's broken English and I cannot understand what he is saying.

It sounds like you and he and saying if an internet radio station plays in the Netherlands that is licensed, all the DJ's have to be licensed too, which is ridiculous and I've never heard of that.

Also, many club venues have a licensed streamed.  How do you know they don't and why can't someone in the Netherlands listen to a licensed stream?  

You and Alwin are trying to put the internet music laws on what is supposed to be the big internet radio laws for Apple, Spotify, IHeart Radio, etc.  onto people who don't have enough listeners to qualify as a business.  Now, the 24/7 Clubs in SL do have enough listeners and I believe many of those are licensed.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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11 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

BTW if I were to obtain a Sound Exchange license to DJ in SL, it would cost me about $1600 USD/year if the new Sound Exchange fees increase retroactively when announced on June 14.  I would need about 400,000 Lindens/year from tips to just cover my expenses. And that would not cover the copyrights from the songwriters and bands that created the original song.

11 hours ago, Mollymews said:

this is the same as a real life DJ spinning in a real life club. Typically the real life club will have a license covering their venue. DJ restricted to commercial works covered by the license

In our bar we have a licences to cover both live bands and recorded music. The bar licence also covers any DJs we hire too. We also have a licence for the internet stuff too. Does cost a small fortune but some we can write off.

10 hours ago, kari Velvetleaf said:

One thing that I honestly find irritating and WILL make me leave a club, is when the 'hosts' constantly remind or badger you to tip the venue and the performer, and then the performer reminds you to tip the 'amazing' host, who has basically just been saying hi to people and bugging us to tip.

I hate that with a passion. Or when the host/ess gestures like crazy about tipping the host or whatever. Some long time clubs are guilty at that with their hosts (and dancers if they have any) all using the same begging gesture like "░░▒▓█████ Please Help Keep BLAH-BLAH Running By Donating To The Thermometer. █████▓▒░░"

7 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

I have to say I agree, but with a different conclusion.

My moral compass isn't registering anything but approval for the person downloading a requested youtube song to fulfil a request to bring and share a bit of joy. 

My moral compass starts moving when poverty, inequalities and injustices are under consideration and there are enough of them around to flat line any moral concerns about SL DJs. 

When I had my SL club, we had DJs for a special event and half the songs was like "The Lindens - Our Life In SL (HD Complete-with lyrics) which was easy to spot Youtube rips.

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