listening without tipping: yea or nay?

[Jaylinbridges]

12 hours ago, Malin Sabra said:

If there is a real DJ who is mixing their own stuff to create an experience then I would probably attend and feel ok with tipping.

Depends on the music genre too.  Blues and classic rock do not need to be tampered with by knob twiddlers (mixing DJ's).  My crowd would leave if I messed up a classic, or a new song by some great artist.  Mixing was originally done by block street party DJ's s so the cops would not arrest them for playing copyrighted music. These were urban black neighborhoods where arresting folks was considered sport. Hence hip hop street music began.

I never have a set playlist, interact with the VIPs, take requests, and would flunk DJ school if ever tried it.  But mixing real music is for the kids, unless it is entirely your own composition.

I would rather have listeners than tips.  

There are sometimes wanna be DJ's that send me a request every 5 mins - apparently they think I have never done this before and need help.  Of course these multi song requester's seldom tip.  Such a business

 

 

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

12 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Depends on the music genre too.  Blues and classic rock do not need to be tampered with by knob twiddlers (mixing DJ's).  My crowd would leave if I messed up a classic, or a new song by some great artist.  Mixing was originally done by block street party DJ's s so the cops would not arrest them for playing copyrighted music. These were urban black neighborhoods where arresting folks was considered sport. Hence hip hop street music began.

I never have a set playlist, interact with the VIPs, take requests, and would flunk DJ school if ever tried it.  But mixing real music is for the kids, unless it is entirely your own composition.

I would rather have listeners than tips.  

There are sometimes wanna be DJ's that send me a request every 5 mins - apparently they think I have never done this before and need help.  Of course these multi song requester's seldom tip.  Such a business

Some genres lend themselves to mixing --- but most songs best left untouched. A few times my man done a Disco theme at a venue and he would segue the songs in the style that it was done in the old days.

[Amanda Crisp]

I DJ because I love music.

If someone wants to listen and not tip; thats fine!

If someone wants to make 5 obscure (intentionally obscure) song requests that require me to buy music (with RL money); then a small donation to defray the download fees is certainly appreciated 🙂

That happens BTW as “stump the DJ” is not an uncommon game…..

 

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

So. Aside from a few who do actually have broadcasting rights why would I give even 1.00 to someone who is potentially breaking copyright rules.  I have no way of knowing. Heck I had a YouTube video I made and you could barely hear a song that was playing in my car radio and they shut me down! It was a driving video of the going to the sun rd in Montana. So my opinion is the whole dj business in SL is super shady! 

[Sid Nagy]

1 hour ago, Amanda Crisp said:

I DJ because I love music.

If someone wants to listen and not tip; thats fine!

If someone wants to make 5 obscure (intentionally obscure) song requests that require me to buy music (with RL money); then a small donation to defray the download fees is certainly appreciated 🙂

That happens BTW as “stump the DJ” is not an uncommon game…..

 

 

I would announce the request and then start good old Rick Ashley to stump back.
The Spice Girls would do great also or an early Justin Bieber.
 

 

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

1 hour ago, Tarina Sewell said:

So. Aside from a few who do actually have broadcasting rights why would I give even 1.00 to someone who is potentially breaking copyright rules.  I have no way of knowing. Heck I had a YouTube video I made and you could barely hear a song that was playing in my car radio and they shut me down! It was a driving video of the going to the sun rd in Montana. So my opinion is the whole dj business in SL is super shady! 

There is another thread about that. Same with some parks now. Saw a sign at a public park "Do to music regulations, no sound devices playing copyrighted music." And some of us oldies remember taking a transistor radio to the beach in the ancient days.

[Jaylinbridges]

3 hours ago, Tarina Sewell said:

So my opinion is the whole dj business in SL is super shady! 

https://youtu.be/cKKJV0Aiiv0

Edited June 12, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 hours ago, Amanda Crisp said:

I DJ because I love music.

If someone wants to listen and not tip; thats fine!

If someone wants to make 5 obscure (intentionally obscure) song requests that require me to buy music (with RL money); then a small donation to defray the download fees is certainly appreciated 🙂

That happens BTW as “stump the DJ” is not an uncommon game…..

 

 

No,  no. You suck, not blow. 

[Kathlen Onyx]

On 6/9/2021 at 4:36 AM, Prokofy Neva said:

A big one, in my view. I feel you shouldn't go to a club or a concert if you cannot tip DJs, hosts, and musicians. The host has to pay the tier, the DJs and musicians give their time and talent. You can give a modest tip of only $50 but I think $250 is the minimum and $1000 advisable.

When I go to my local pub in real life (or rather when we used to before the pandemic), there was a cover charge of US $3.00 or $5.00. The musicians are paid some measly amount and get additional tips during their performance, none of which does more really than keep them in gasoline and pizza to start the same cycle over again. They struggle with t-shirts and CDs and trying to sell special access streams and VIP tickets and all the rest because Silicon Valley broke the copyright model for its own enrichment, harnessing the criminality of the masses. So in real life, $4 or $5 is not enough, nor the tips enough, and they struggle.

In SL, there is half or less than that typically. But US $4.00 is only 1,000 Lindens. How many people ever leave a tip of 1,000 Lindens? They leave perhaps 100 or 250. That's only US $1.00. Not even a latte. I think you should be willing to leave a US dollar for this experience.

$L1000 for a DJ at a club? For a two hour set? You've got to be kidding. Even if that was divided between the host and club as well I'd never tip that much.  I do not think comparing going to a club in SL to going to a pub in RL is even remotely comparable. 

If I go to a club I will tip the DJ/Host and/club $L100 each and that's if I stay for the whole set and If it's a regular club that I go to.  If I stay longer than 2 hours I typically will tip the next DJ/Host $L100 but not the club again. I actually very rarely will tip a venue.  I'm not here in SL to pay someone's tier or help them pay their RL rent, pandemic or not. You should fund your SL yourself and look at tips as icing on the cake.  Besides the word "DJ" is used way to often for someone who is just spinning tunes I could listen to on Spotify or YouTube.  There are very few people that DJ in SL that are actually talented enough to have DJ in front of their name and a lot of DJ's don't even talk.  If they don't voice I won't tip at all.  I hate when notices are sent out by a host with "DJ Raydio".  I could stay on my land for that. I may tip a live singer $L200 if I enjoy their performance. Also, if I request a song, which I rarely do, I will tip the DJ and extra $L100. 

I think this gives new people and those that have very little to spend on $L a bad sense of what is expected.  

At the larger clubs I never tip because they say their cursory hello and then go back to chit chatting it up with the regulars. 

Also if a club resorts to constant "begging" for money I won't tip at all. There is this one club I stopped going to because they have local messages that come up like every five minutes begging for money for the DJ/Host/Venue and that if you request a song it's expected that you tip and that DJ's have expenses to cover yada, yada.  It's relentless begging.  The scripts are the same in every club "help us keep the lights on" "ty for that linden love" "what a great set by so and so DJ and so and so Host" Wash, rinse, repeat.  I wish clubs would come up with something different than every other club on the grid.

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by Sam1 Bellisserian

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

$L1000 for a DJ at a club? For a two hour set? You've got to be kidding. Even if that was divided between the host and club as well I'd never tip that much.  I do not think comparing going to a club in SL to going to a pub in RL is even remotely comparable. 

If I go to a club I will tip the DJ/Host and/club $L100 each and that's if I stay for the whole set and If it's a regular club that I go to.  If I stay longer than 2 hours I typically will tip the next DJ/Host $L100 but not the club again. I actually very rarely will tip a venue.  I'm not here in SL to pay someone's tier or help them pay their RL rent, pandemic or not. You should fund your SL yourself and look at tips as icing on the cake.  Besides the word "DJ" is used way to often for someone who is just spinning tunes I could listen to on Spotify or YouTube.  There are very few people that DJ in SL that are actually talented enough to have DJ in front of their name and a lot of DJ's don't even talk.  If they don't voice I won't tip at all.  I hate when notices are sent out by a host with "DJ Raydio".  I could stay on my land for that. I may tip a live singer $L200 if I enjoy their performance. Also, if I request a song, which I rarely do, I will tip the DJ and extra $L100. 

I think this gives new people and those that have very little to spend on $L a bad sense of what is expected.  

At the larger clubs I never tip because they say their cursory hello and then go back to chit chatting it up with the regulars. 

Also if a club resorts to constant "begging" for money I won't tip at all. There is this one club I stopped going to because they have local messages that come up like every five minutes begging for money for the DJ/Host/Venue and that if you request a song it's expected that you tip and that DJ's have expenses to cover yada, yada.  It's relentless begging.  The scripts are the same in every club "help us keep the lights on" "ty for that linden love" "what a great set by so and so DJ and so and so Host" Wash, rinse, repeat.  I wish clubs would come up with something different than every other club on the grid.

 

$1000 is for a musician, not a DJ, and playing their own songs they have written, and who makes a living or a good part of his or her living in SL. That's perfectly reasonable. It's US $4.00. I would pay that in a RL bar, and just because I'm in virtuality, I don't see why it cannot be paid in SL. And I think at least $100 or $250 for a DJ, because again, they often have to pay for a Shoutcast stream. 

I see DJs in this thread claiming they don't mind if people don't tip them, but that's because they're playing other people's music with a click of a button and it is not their RL living. I don't notice musicians saying "No need to tip me". A live musician, even one singing with a back-up tape, is working, and should be paid. If someone feels they don't have to pay for a Spotify with an AFK host, understood, but then how is tier going to get paid? People want socializing, they want life, they complain that there's nothing to do and SL is dead, but they can't fish 100L out of their pockets to keep it going? Why? 

The events I've been to with DJs lately featured live DJs taking time to select themed music especially, talking about the background to the music some times, or helping to use that event to fund-raise for a cause like RFL. They are working and contributing their time; I have learned about songs I didn't know before from them. Why on earth wouldn't I feel an obligation to pay them? Of course I do. It's not like 250L is going to break the bank for anyone who can log on to the Internet and has the graphic card to see SL.

New people are not children or impoverished refugees. They are people with computers and broadband even in the developing world so they have disposable income. They are going to be entertained and can pay a real human being for his or her work to entertain them what they would pay for another human being to sit and sweat at Blender. 

Of course it's annoying to get asked every 10 minutes to donate to not just the performer or the DJ but the venue owner. But how are they supposed to pay tier? They're supposed to tier your SL for free? This is why so many venues, including some very good long-time ones, are forced to go out of business. This. This attitude that people should freeload or skimp and let others do the work and bear the burden of tier for them.

 

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

And I think at least $100 or $250 for a DJ, because again, they often have to pay for a Shoutcast stream.

i may hope they have a bit more than a handfull listeners at a set ... a monthly shoutcast subscription can be found for a 1000 (40 listeners) or 2200 (100 listeners) L$ ! .... ten people tipping and the costs are covered with your recommendation.

In the old days   good times... a 50 L tip was more appreciated than the 100's now. Most wannabee music switchers aren't dj's .. compensating skills with lot of talking and ripped youtube tunes, doesn't make tips required.
There are of course also loads of good ones.

[Prokofy Neva]

I wonder why so much effort is put in here to insist and prove that your fellow SL resident who entertains you and provides you with a venue to be in and socialize does not need to be compensated, or can be compensated with peanuts. And yet those same people then complain that venues fail, people grow discouraged, and they leave SL and it is "dying". Such a disconnect! And this is what is meant by the entitlement generation.

[Sid Nagy]

In RL I seldom tip with an amount where you can buy a house for.
I don't do that in SL either.

I'm not responsible for people who want to make a RL living out of SL.
And I'm not responsible for the business model of a venue either.
In my (European colored) book a tip is a sign of appreciation for the extra someone does, not to help to make a living. 

Edited June 12, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[Orwar]

15 hours ago, Amanda Crisp said:

That happens BTW as “stump the DJ” is not an uncommon game…..

   My sister's club has a 'no yodelling' rule for a reason. 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I wonder why so much effort is put in here to insist and prove that your fellow SL resident who entertains you and provides you with a venue to be in and socialize does not need to be compensated, or can be compensated with peanuts.

At the end of the day, tipping/donating is voluntary. Advocating for better support for entertainers is valid, but you shouldn't force/pressure/guilt people into tipping or tipping more.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Sid Nagy]

This may sound harsh (but we Dutch can be pretty straight forward at times):
If you want to make RL wages, work in RL.
If I would go flipping burgers somewhere or even take a job as paper boy, I would make a lot more than banging on things for hours for my SL store.

SL is there for the fun of it. Making a RL living is more a dream than a reality. Sure the producers of the major mesh body and head branches for instance might (will) make a decent RL income, but those who do are exceptions from what is normal: Working long hours for peanut returns (measured in RL money).

SL can bring some extra beer money. That is way more realistic. But better take whatever you do for SL as  a hobby.

And everybody who has been around a bit in SL knows owning a club/bar/disco in SL is a money pit.
Accept that fact or don't even start one.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

This may sound harsh (but we Dutch can be pretty straight forward at times):
If you want to make RL wages, work in RL.
If I would go flipping burgers somewhere or even take a job as paper boy, I would make a lot more than banging on things for hours for my SL store.

SL is there for the fun of it. Making a RL living is more a dream than a reality. Sure the producers of the major mesh body and head branches might (will) make a decent RL income, but those who do are exceptions from what is normal.

SL can bring some extra beer money. That is way more realistic. But better take whatever you do for SL as a work of love/ a hobby.

And everybody who has been around a bit in SL knows owning a club/bar/disco in SL is a money pit.
Accept that fact or don't even start one.

I kinda get what you mean but "work in RL" kinda doesn't apply in this age of the internet.

For example, sitting at home making videos for Youtube, or livestreaming on Twitch/Youtube, can be a decent way to make a living and the income isn't really limited to what you would make at a traditional job regardless of your field or education. Especially livestreamers have a lot of parallels with SL DJs, you can just put on a game and let people come in and watch; it can be relatively no-effort work.

The livestramers I'm speaking of technically live on tips/donations, especially on Youtube where it's much easier to get started, but livestreamers also make money from ad-revenue which is a common way to monetize your audience without requiring direct payment from them. A lot of Twitch streamers show 3 minutes of ads every hour so they can take a break and to prevent any more ads from being shown to viewers.

Second Life on the other hand is a very small, niche platform. There's no way to really make decent money as an entertainer because you're never going to reach big audiences, especially when the sim you're on is limited to 20-100 people. You'd pretty much have to either charge an entry fee or have the establishment itself fund you, or host yourself somewhere outside of SL. You could do your DJing on Youtube and stream the audio into SL, for example, so that you could have a bigger audience while also entertaining those in front of you.

Not only that, but the SL economy is one of small transactions. People are used to spending only small amounts of money at a time (whether they're tipping or buying products) and they don't think of value in terms of real money. There are some exceptions, like mesh body parts or clothing fatpacks, but just looking at the Marketplace price ranges, the vast majority of products are under 1000L and most of those are 500L or less regardless of category.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Sid Nagy]

I agree, SL has vast limitations to make a real income.
Being in SL and working in SL can be a real great time, 'Your World, Your Imagination' is still true. But you better have a realistic expectation as well.
Artists, builders, designers, club owners better understand that before they start, to not get disappointed pretty soon.

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

And everybody who has been around a bit in SL knows owning a club/bar/disco in SL is a money pit.
Accept that fact or don't even start one.

I've had three clubs for tinies where the price of the first one was about $5 dollars a month.  The price of my second club for tinies was about $11 dollars a month.  I have a small club for tinies now which is about $8 dollars a month.  One doesn't need a whole sim or half a sim to have a club.  My second club my landlord put me out in space on mainland and no one was ever there, so we could fit 40 avatars twice a week for the "dress up" parties we had.  It was fun and well worth the price.  I haven't gotten into the swing of my latest club because I was side-tracked by a malfunctioning EEP viewer which I also cannot stand the EEP viewer because it's a hassle too and FPS drag and we just had gotten into the cloud which was awesome and then the EEP drag, SO I'm not sure I want to go forward with my SL because of that viewer.  But, the clubs I had were not expensive at all.   

[rasterscan]

Glad I retired from it reading this lot lol

[Innula Zenovka]

15 hours ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Saw a sign at a public park "Do to music regulations, no sound devices playing copyrighted music.

Where was that, out of interest?    

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

This may sound harsh (but we Dutch can be pretty straight forward at times):
If you want to make RL wages, work in RL.
If I would go flipping burgers somewhere or even take a job as paper boy, I would make a lot more than banging on things for hours for my SL store.

SL is there for the fun of it. Making a RL living is more a dream than a reality. Sure the producers of the major mesh body and head branches might (will) make a decent RL income, but those who do are exceptions from what is normal: Working long hours for peanut returns (measured in RL money).

SL can bring some extra beer money. That is way more realistic. But better take whatever you do for SL as  a hobby.

And everybody who has been around a bit in SL knows owning a club/bar/disco in SL is a money pit.
Accept that fact or don't even start one.

One more thing to add to this. For those using SL as a major source of income, SL isn't going to be around forever. The grid will go dark in your lifetime.

The question is will there be another grid for us to migrate to, just like we migrated from AW to SL? I'm not talking about OS, I'm talking about something vastly improved from SL just as SL was vastly improved from AW. Only, for pity's sake, don't make it so much like real life!

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

3 hours ago, Innula Zenovka said:

Where was that, out of interest?    

Was in Tennessee a few years ago.

[Innula Zenovka]

1 hour ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Was in Tennessee a few years ago.

Thanks.   That can't possibly be how copyright works there, though -- it's not like a business providing copyright content as entertainment on the premises without paying the appropriate fees to the relevant bodies.

Nevertheless it's a good reason to give to stop people from playing radios on the beach, which I can see why they'd want to.

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by Innula Zenovka

[Mildred Blackwood]

Everything in SL is just a luxory. Nobody is required to do anything, demand anything, or pay anything if they dont want to or cant. Nobody is entitled to demand it from anyone for any reason either. Not everyone you meet will be able to afford to drop L$ on every DJ they hear. They may wish they could but its nobodies place to even ask them why they cant.

It doesnt mean people should not be allowed to enjoy going anywhere just because they dont have L$. What a crap way of thinking. Demanding all newer people or even older residents that have little or nothing to spare hand over money if they enter is very off-putting. In my younger years i had experienced some bad club ownership with aggressive rude owners harassing new patrons demanding they tip their staff and asking them why they cant and what they do with their L$.  

Some people just go to a club because they hope to meet new people and socialize. They dont necessarily care for the music or even listen to it. Some go to live music events to enjoy the experience but cant afford tip.Not everybody has money. It doesnt mean that in the virtual world they shouldnt  be there enjoying things too. This is SL not the real world. You cant compare every single situation to the real world because its never going to be the same thing.