Phil Deakins Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 On 6/16/2021 at 6:52 AM, XemmaN said: If it is forbidden in the sl then why some have such an opportunity. It isn't forbidden in SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 If I have a piece of land with a venue on it that is open to the public, and I want to know if anyone is in the venue with more than one avatar, I can do that. There is nothing in the LL rules that prevents me from doing exactly that. And there is nothing in the LL rules that prevents me from banning anyone I choose from the land. Identifying duplicate IP addresses is perfectly legal within the SL rules, so, if the item in question merely does that, and bans duplicates, then it's not only ok, but it's a very useful tool for some people. All the fuss in this thread is about nothing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerilynn Lemon Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Has it occurred to anyone in this thread (not going to read all seven pages to find out) that two people, living as roomies or married, doesn't matter, could be on two separate puters in SL and are at the same venue, be it dancing, chatting with friends, what ever will show as a duplicate IP. Two people. Living under the same roof. Sharing a router. Same ISP (server probably 10-15 miles away, doesn't show physical location IP) involved with Second Life and at the same region/venue/event. Not unheard of. That does not constitute an alt is in the room. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwin LeShelle Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: If I have a piece of land with a venue on it that is open to the public, and I want to know if anyone is in the venue with more than one avatar, I can do that. There is nothing in the LL rules that prevents me from doing exactly that. And there is nothing in the LL rules that prevents me from banning anyone I choose from the land. Identifying duplicate IP addresses is perfectly legal within the SL rules, so, if the item in question merely does that, and bans duplicates, then it's not only ok, but it's a very useful tool for some people. All the fuss in this thread is about nothing. I think the TOS have a passage about outing alternate accounts, my opinion is that should fall into the same category. And yeah here at home 3 people use SL, my hubby not that often but my daughter and I pretty regularly and sometimes even my daughter's boyfriend when he stays over night so banning people by IP adress is a very stupid thing to do IMHO. But I actually don't even get why some people are so prone about banning apts, I mean I could not imagine to go to a concert with my alt because boring to talk to myself XD but then again I can imagine some people just enjoy that and even need the impression of not being alone maybe? But why do people not use Mac address to identify if someone is the same person because I can imagine people using alts are usually using multiple viewers on one machine? But probably catching the Mac address is even worse TOS wise XD so maybe that's why. OK maybe that would be really really bad but I just mean...are there really no better ways to accomplish this? Edited June 17, 2021 by Gwin LeShelle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerilynn Lemon Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 18 minutes ago, Gwin LeShelle said: I think the TOS have a passage about outing alternate accounts, my opinion is that should fall into the same category. And yeah here at home 3 people use SL, my hubby not that often but my daughter and I pretty regularly and sometimes even my daughter's boyfriend when he stays over night so banning people by IP adress is a very stupid thing to do IMHO. One hundred people live in a college dorm. Maybe seven use SL. Three happen to be in the same region, but their IP are separate, but similar. Is someone going to ban the parent IP, effectively banning a complete college dorm? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Phil Deakins said: Identifying duplicate IP addresses is perfectly legal within the SL rules, so, if the item in question merely does that, and bans duplicates, then it's not only ok, but it's a very useful tool for some people. All the fuss in this thread is about nothing. Except that's not what this device does. It may have that side-effect, but it's actual stated purpose is to ban anybody with alts, whether or not any of those alts have ever before been on a particular parcel. You know how some folks have an automatic, generalized hatred of all bots, regardless of what those bots may do in service of Second Life? This thing bans from all participating parcels any alt it ever detects, apparently anywhere. On the plus side, it's not widely used, so it hasn't detected many alts. It's a weird kind of negative network effect where the more effective it is at performing its anti-alt purpose, the less acceptable it is to any sensible landowner. There are other features of its implementation—notably its reliance on an Experience—that gives it the potential of doing other, nastier things, and some of us are just naturally suspicious. (It's not that Experiences are inherently scary—not at all—but combined with the whole IP address-harvesting thing, one can't help but wonder what else might get into that 128MB in-world persistent store and what might happen with it, even after someone leaves the Experience.) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfie Reanimator Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) Basically: Go to a place on account A and identify yourself. Go to the same place on account B and identify yourself. A and B both get banned. Go to a new place on either account and identify yourself. Get banned immediately, because this system has already flagged you. And let's not forget: Go to a place and identify yourself. Change the URL you're given to associate your IP with someone else's account. Yours and that someone else's account gets banned. Edited June 17, 2021 by Wulfie Reanimator 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 If they ban me, kudos for them. At least 100,000 parcels left in world where I can go to. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollymews Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 and just because 1. Everybody that doesn't click the url to get identified in addition to getting ejected gets added to the ban list 2. Get banhammered ever after from all the places with this device 3. Parcel owner with device goes: Hey! weers all my peeps at ? 4. Other parcel owner without device goes: All your peeps are now my peeps at my place 5. First parcel owner goes: I think I get rid of this stupid thing 6. Other parcel owner goes: Nuuuu! Keep it! keep it! Is working great. Best thing evah !! kehehehe ! 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 To be incredibly blunt in response to at least two users that have responded (one that has done so repeatedly and that does not appear to understand the responses given in return): Find a place that uses this system? Do not return and - if you really believe something is amiss with it - send an Abuse Report As has been noted a few times, there are many other places in Second Life Your IP Address is not being published anywhere nor is it - as far as anyone can tell - being properly (or improperly) stored - you can sit down now Any service or web page has to obtain your IP Address to function as a basic part of the Internet A simple ShoutCast stream management page can capture and display - to its owner/administrator - each and every single IP Address that has connected to it - best not ever listen to music if you're that worried Better yet, don't use the Internet if you're that worried 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Gwin LeShelle said: I think the TOS have a passage about outing alternate accounts, my opinion is that should fall into the same category. I think the ToS does contain that. In fact I'm sure it does. But, judging by what's been written in this thread, the item that's the subject of this thread doesn't 'out' anyone or their alts. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwin LeShelle Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Just now, Phil Deakins said: I think the ToS does contain that. In fact I'm sure it does. But, judging by what's been written in this thread, the item that's the subject of this thread doesn't 'out' anyone or their alts. It kiiinda does. For some people logging IP adresses and throwing them into a system so any other owner can ban those too, this counts as just this, sharing/publishing your IP in some way. And for other people it is not the same and I think this is the reason for the rather wild discussion in here x3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said: You know how some folks have an automatic, generalized hatred of all bots I know that 1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said: Except that's not what this device does. It may have that side-effect, but it's actual stated purpose is to ban anybody with alts, whether or not any of those alts have ever before been on a particular parcel. Yes, but the land-owner is allowed to do that. From what I've read in this thread, the device is used on a parcel to detect and ban alts that are on the parcel. What I quoted of yours, Qie, it sounds like a central system, with which all alts are banned from all parcels on which landowners use it. If that's been stated, then I've missed it. But if it only bans all alts from the device owner's parcel(s), then it can be a very useful tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Gwin LeShelle said: It kiiinda does. For some people logging IP adresses and throwing them into a system so any other owner can ban those too, this counts as just this, sharing/publishing your IP in some way. That's correct, but I haven't read, or I've forgotten, that the device passes alt information onto other users of the device, or to other people of any kind. If it doesn't it's within the rules as far as I know - and can be very useful. Edited June 17, 2021 by Phil Deakins 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XemmaN Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 4 hours ago, Phil Deakins said: If I have a piece of land with a venue on it that is open to the public, and I want to know if anyone is in the venue with more than one avatar, I can do that. There is nothing in the LL rules that prevents me from doing exactly that. And there is nothing in the LL rules that prevents me from banning anyone I choose from the land. Identifying duplicate IP addresses is perfectly legal within the SL rules, so, if the item in question merely does that, and bans duplicates, then it's not only ok, but it's a very useful tool for some people. All the fuss in this thread is about nothing. Users who use such things, users - they themselves have a bunch of alts painfully revealing other people's alts lol. The creators of such systems, tyrant landowners - worried about banging innocent users, families, neighbors playing from the same house or students or colleagues, husband and wife can't enter you? or children and parents? or unfortunately have the same IP address. because the Internet is no longer able to provide each individual, so each family member or housemate. yes they will no longer come to you because you violate their rights will enjoy the world of sl. and yes, everyone here creates their own world. Are you sure that your created world is the most wonderful? because your systems for defining alt really can't define it, they can only discriminate and eject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 @XemmaN Whether or not the object's users have alts is totally irrelevant. How it affects people who have the same IP address is also totally irrelevant. A landowner can allow and disallow anyone s/he likes. But you know that, so there's no point in you arguing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 53 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: Yes, but the land-owner is allowed to do that. From what I've read in this thread, the device is used on a parcel to detect and ban alts that are on the parcel. What I quoted of yours, Qie, it sounds like a central system, with which all alts are banned from all parcels on which landowners use it. If that's been stated, then I've missed it. But if it only bans all alts from the device owner's parcel(s), then it can be a very useful tool. Try it. It's free on the Marketplace, and I'm guessing you must have a few alts and a couple parcels to see how it works. What you'll find (at least what I found) was that once one of my alts identified himself on one parcel, all accounts that identify using the same IP address are immediately and permanently banned everywhere else that has the device installed. That's (the bare minimum) reason for the Experience requirement imposed on the landowner: anything written to KVP persistent store is instantly visible to other scripts using that Experience anywhere on the grid.* And because it's not so obvious to landowners what it actually does they aren't likely to make an informed decision about using it. (I mean, landowners wanting to manage alt presence just don't expect to forever exclude everybody who has any alts identified anywhere ever.) So yeah, landowners are allowed to do it, but they never would if they understood what they're actually doing. ____________ * It's an amazingly efficient (and mostly reliable) form of grid-wide broadcast communications—and a nostalgic exercise in using shm IPC from the good ol' days of POSIX. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 @Qie Niangao Nobody knew that I have one or two alts, but I do I don't have one or two parcels any more though. I gave up premium and land when I left SL, and I've stayed as a free account since I came back because of the lockdown. So I can't do the testing that you've done. Are you saying that, in your tests, or in its own information, the device not only bans alts from your own parcel(s), but also from parcels that other users of the device own? If that's true, then I take everything back and completely change my mind. Even if it's merely an option that a device owner can choose, I still change my mind. Everything I've written assumes that it only affects avatars that go onto the device-owner's parcel(s). If it also affects other people's parcels, then it probably still complies with the rules, because it isn't offering IP addresses for other people to see. But I'm only in favour of it if it only affects the device-owners parcel(s). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JordonBanks Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Phil Deakins said: Yes it IS the case when the owner turns it on. That's what it's for. And so how do visitors to sims/locations know it's not allowed. I can't reacall ever seeing a notice anywhere saying NO alts allowed? Or am in just missing this somehow? Edited June 17, 2021 by JordonBanks typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 1 minute ago, JordonBanks said: And so how to visitors to sims/locations know it's not allowed. I can't reacall ever seeing a notice anywhere saying NO alts allowed? Or am in just missing this somehow? I haven't used it, or been anywhere where it operates, but it asks a visitor to click something, doesn't it? Unless I'm mixing stuff up, which can be very likely, the visitor is told what's happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JordonBanks Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said: I haven't used it, or been anywhere where it operates, but it asks a visitor to click something, doesn't it? Unless I'm mixing stuff up, which can be very likely, the visitor is told what's happening. I think it says/asks you to take an alt test to see whether you are an alt or not? But as I say - it, (nor anywhere i have visited), as ever clarified that alts are not allowed? So what is the point of the alt test, unless specifically it (OR the parcel owner) has said alts not allowed and made this clear to any visitors to it? Edited June 17, 2021 by JordonBanks Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 (edited) Land-owners can have various reasons for not wanting alts, but probably the main one is entering competitions, and I would have thought that it's obvious to anyone who takes alts along to enter competitions knows that the owner probably doesn't want them to do it. I don't think it's necessary for a competition runner to put up a sign saying that alts are not allowed to vote. It goes without saying, imo. Edited June 17, 2021 by Phil Deakins 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Temporary banning alts who are at the same time on the same parcel could make sense but banning them for all user's parcels is stupid IMHO. But still, a great drama tool, so it fits in perfectly into SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 Jordan, the simple act of having this - or any other - alt detection system on one's parcel is telling the user up front that Alts are not welcome/allowed on that parcel. That aside, many venue/club/shop/general parcel owners will take varied approaches to displaying additional rules for their locations. No matter how many of these are layered in, there will be those who do not bother to read the information and then complain when any action is taken - that's on them however. Like it or not, within Second Life the only rules you can be certain of are the Terms of Service and the Community Standards. It is on you to read any additional rules present on any given parcel. If you're (general) too impatient to let everything load in and to examine your landing site and/or the parcel Covenant ... that is on you. It'd be nice if there was a standardized configuration and method of presentation for any additional rules but the reality is that there simply isn't. Nor could one be enforced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 @Qie Niangao Ok, I've got one of them, and nothing in the instructions, or any other text, suggests that it can or will ban avatars from other parcels where the owners are using the device. Also, there is no option in the menu to set so that it also bans from other users' lands. I can set it up here, because the land is owned by my group. To check if it bans from the land of a different owner, can you set yours up? I can get an alt banned here and we can check if it also gets banned from your parcel. In the meantime, I'll split this parcel and test it on 2 parcels that are owned by my group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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