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We have the power to make SL a "big thing" again (really) and tip the ongoing narrative, let's do this! c= let's do our part (for our sake)


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2 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

It seems that SL is pretty bad for newbies. I just saw a video of someone who had a terrible time. This was uploaded a few days ago.

 

I mean, yes it is hard for newbies, but at the same time you can't really hold up a pewdiepie clone as an example. That video was basically a video full of jump cuts with him running around like a chicken with his head cut off. I'm guessing that's his schtick. He did say people tried to help him, but he was still running around like that....why? Because he didn't want help, he wanted content. There are plenty of youtubers that do howtos and do secondlife content that show secondlife as it really is at this point. 

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14 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

It seems that SL is pretty bad for newbies. I just saw a video of someone who had a terrible time. This was uploaded a few days ago.

 

Now that's a good review. His main complaints:

  • Frame rate sucks. He's right. SL users are way too tolerant of low frame rates. That's fixable, but it takes a viewer rewrite. (I can say more on that in a more technical forum.)
  • "What do I do now?" - SL's big question. He wants to find a place where he can hang out and talk to people. The Destination Guide sent him to three clubs where he was immediately kicked out for being too new, and was angry about that. He got to Social Island 10. He finally made it to London City, but was stuck at 2 FPS. Interestingly, he never talked to anybody.
  • Slow rezzing. He made it to some places which would have been more interesting after a minute of asset loading. This is a big problem in stores with large numbers of vendors. If the nearer textures loaded first, new users would have more to look at, and it would be clearer what's going on.

The reviewer expected instant response and instant understandability. He abandoned anything as soon as it wasn't immediately obvious what to do next.  It's an incompatibility with the style of SL. Most of online today is set up for instant gratification. While most of SL isn't like that, more of the new user experience needs to be. A big fraction of the population is not methodical, and SL is designed for methodical people.

This is a classic game design problem. The new user experience starts with what game designers call a "track ride" - you go from station to station in a fixed order and are more or less locked to the game's track. Then you exit, and you're out in the open with some options ahead. This is the "now what?" moment. New users are not quite prepared for that.

Social Island 10 is the Port Authority Bus Terminal of Second Life. "If Hell had a Hell", that terminal has been called. It's big, has lots of traffic, is confusing, provides little guidance to new arrivals, the information desk isn't staffed, and homeless people get stuck there. That's the new user introduction to Second Life.

All Lindens should spend an hour a week there as a helper. Both because the place needs some staffing, and so that SL employees understand the problems of new users.

LL tries to help with that new user HUD which lets you check off achievements. The reviewer noticed the HUD attach, but that just confused him, and he ignored it.

At some points, the reviewer mentions being scared. He knows others are watching him, and maybe judging him. Some of the rushing through everything comes from that. That's worth thinking about. Middle school kids have been beaten up in real life for being a default in Fortnite. There can be a real fear factor in joining SL.

Edited by animats
Missing "not"
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I think that many times Second Life is compared with a current video game, and in my opinion it is a mistake, they are two totally different products, at a technical level and at a content and experience structure level. 

I agree that we must work on the arrival of new users by offering them controlled content at all times until they have the necessary knowledge to "become independent" and try to work on an island of arrival with more information, social activity areas and gaming experience area. Second Life is not unique, it is the sum of many things. 

It is a very complicated task that requires a very deep study.

 

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1 minute ago, animats said:
  • "What do I do now?" - SL's big question. He wants to find a place where he can hang out and talk to people. The Destination Guide sent him to three clubs where he was immediately kicked out for being too new, and was angry about that. He got to Social Island 10. He finally made it to London City, but was stuck at 2 FPS. Interestingly, he never talked to anybody.

The expectation is that he could enter an area with an existing conversation - people chatting in local.

Not find ghost avatars standing or dancing in silence.

Jumping into a random persons IM's isn't polite.

1 minute ago, animats said:

The reviewer expected instant response and instant understandability. He abandoned anything as soon as it wasn't immediately obvious what to do next. 

This is entirely normal for new users in SL. 

It's not an unrealistic expectation to have coming in cold, but one SL needs to do a lot of work to try and meet.

If you're used to games, you're used to the language of gaming providing shortcuts and clues as to what the user should be doing next. SL often gets this wrong and leaves users staring at the screen - the assumption that there is nothing to do in that moment is not misplaced.

1 minute ago, animats said:

All Lindens should spend an hour a week there as a helper. Both because the place needs some staffing, and so that SL employees understand the problems of new users.

Agreed. 100%

1 minute ago, animats said:

LL tries to help with that new user HUD which lets you check off achievements. The reviewer noticed the HUD attach, but that just confused him, and he ignored it.

because it looks different from the basic user interface and is just floating randomly. It's bad UI design.

1 minute ago, animats said:

At some points, the reviewer mentions being scared. He knows others are watching him, and maybe judging him. Some of the rushing through everything comes from that. That's worth thinking about. Middle school kids have been beaten up in real life for being a default in Fortnite. There can be a real fear factor in joining SL.

People in SL are doing serious scary things, the mass silence when visiting places only adds to that sense of entering a space you don't belong. It's like walking into a bar and everyone goes silent to look at you - and SL does this at every single turn.

2 minutes ago, Hydra Acer said:

I think that many times Second Life is compared with a current video game, and in my opinion it is a mistake, they are two totally different products, at a technical level and at a content and experience structure level. 

SL uses the language of video gaming to a point, that sets the base expectation.

Unless a user is explicitly told - this is not a game, you will need to be patient and investigative - they won't and can't know

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1 hour ago, Hydra Acer said:

I think that many times Second Life is compared with a current video game, and in my opinion it is a mistake, they are two totally different products, at a technical level and at a content and experience structure level.

Of course this is very true, but how many people who arrive first time in SL know this, understand this?

They expect most likely some action going on, some help so that things make sense. At least a little.

When I first joined SL, we joined with hundreds maybe even thousands of noobs each day.
Most people inworld where pretty much noobs as well or just a few months old. Information was shared in every crowded place.
Local chat was normal. People typing everywhere.
Before I knew I was at the Dove with my first box on my head. And someone nice enough to explain what I did wrong.
I had people on my friends list the first day.
And now?
You get kicked out because nobody wants to be bothered by new residents.
It will be tough to turn that around.

Edited by Sid Nagy
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4 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

He gets kicked and ejected  over and over again.

OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Many places have put restrictions on those just inboarding due to griefing. Too many time some who got banned would make a new avie and come back to the location to harass, usually a club. It's sad those who griefed ruined it for all inboardies.

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1 hour ago, animats said:

The reviewer expected instant response and instant understandability. He abandoned anything as soon as it wasn't immediately obvious what to do next. 

He seemed to me to be getting on quite well with finding his way around and making things work, I wasn't sure if he was looking for voice chat when he said he wanted somebody to talk with, but this was definitely a lost customer simply because the destinations guide failed completely, the best guess it made sent him to places that kick newbies.

If there had been a hang-out category prominently in the list I think he might have had more luck. Sadly though, the closest he found was SL's new niche, music with pictures.

 London City is good, but slow, and I don't know if there's voice there much, as I'm always mic-off when I wander.

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2 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Many places have put restrictions on those just inboarding due to griefing.

Personally, I think people panic far too much about the possibility of griefing. Yes, it's annoying when a major attack takes place, but anybody worth their salt can mute and eject trouble-makers as soon as it's obvious what's going on. Blanket-bans of new avatars is a knee-jerk reaction and might be having undesirable consequences.

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15 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

Personally, I think people panic far too much about the possibility of griefing. Yes, it's annoying when a major attack takes place, but anybody worth their salt can mute and eject trouble-makers as soon as it's obvious what's going on. Blanket-bans of new avatars is a knee-jerk reaction and might be having undesirable consequences.

Agreed.

Setting general policy based on the actions of a tiny minority is just silly.

It's no problem to have staff on hand to manually remove trouble makers, and if no one is about .. who cares what they do.

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On 6/10/2021 at 3:08 AM, Sid Nagy said:

To me it is not about if it should be done, I'm perfectly fine with how the inventory works at the moment, but more if it still could be done.

i wouldn't mind the ability to create user-defined tabs in Inventory window. With the main non-removeable tab being named "All". Then be able to drag drop / copy paste folders, subfolders and items into the tabs. Tab items as links to the items in "All". And able to dock/undock the tabs into their own windows

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3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Settings are the new category for EEP in your inventory

ETA.  They released a bunch of fixes for their viewer which mostly had to do with EEP

 

I'll have to look into your two posts this weekend, Rowan.  I don't have the EEP viewer in right now but thanks for the info.

Edited by FairreLilette
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2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

i wouldn't mind the ability to create user-defined tabs in Inventory window.

Honestly, a lazy (possibly, maybe it'd be really hard, I'm not a viewer-developer) and IMO acceptable way of doing this would be to just have a have a viewer option to treat any arbitrary folder as a tab. right-click folder -> set as tab.

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3 hours ago, Hydra Acer said:

I think that many times Second Life is compared with a current video game, and in my opinion it is a mistake, they are two totally different products.

...and try to work on an island of arrival with more information. Second Life ... is the sum of many things.

I totally agree with this, but who is to blame for that mistake?

Whenever I help new people I make it clear that this is not a video game, it is not even fun, it is the perfect place to get bored, but I also make it clear that it is a platform with many things to do, and sometimes is difficult, sometimes dangerous, sometimes boring, just like life, a second life.

And they didn't know it, nobody tell them.

Sometimes I think that LL is not selling the product in the correct way, in advertising they show the product with high fps videos, with special effects doing things that cannot be done (or at least not in that way) like a current video game, or like a platform to rebuild your real body in a virtual world, or as a meeting engine, and more.

But SL is nothing of the sort, so LL attract the wrong audience and these "gamers" looking for zombies to kill and princesses to save get disappointed (because they have been lied to).

LL should advertise the product for what it is, a world created by its own users, a massive and social 3D editor, where they can use their creativity, build and sell their content, and enjoy content made by other users, a place where they can be hired, get married, have a family, learn, teach, join groups and more.

Are you an artist? SL is for you.
Do you want to sing or play an instrument for a live audience ? Try SL!
Do you want to teach o learn without leaving your home? You can!!

I have made many newbies love SL because I have shown them what can really be done here, if I don't they leave and never come back.

SL is wonderful in many ways, and those ways are not being shown.

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4 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

What do you imagine new users want ?

 

To not be kicked out of every region/parcel simply because they are new and not be immediately suspected as a griefer, simply because they are new.

Now where is my cookie? 🍪

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5 hours ago, Quistessa said:

Honestly, a lazy (possibly, maybe it'd be really hard, I'm not a viewer-developer) and IMO acceptable way of doing this would be to just have a have a viewer option to treat any arbitrary folder as a tab. right-click folder -> set as tab.

I really like this .. will toss it on the pile of stuff to poke at.

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Options are only options if you know they exist .

Find a homeless guy about 40 years old and ask him if he would like to send an email to anybody .

If he replies "i wouldn't know how to" then he holds all the answers you need to make SL more user freindly , and all for the price of a big mac .

I used to IM newbies that got kicked while at the same time gritting my teeth against the gloating smugness of the experienced thrown about in open chat .

All responded in a reasonable manner and 3 minutes later they would have a whole new understanding of "the game"

(Talk to them as your talking to me and you will find most will respond in kind)

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Ah yes, an Apples to kumquats attempt at an analogy, followed by "advice" that is both far too basic and misplaced.

A New User coming into Second Life and expecting it to function like World of Overwatch 9000: The New Duty is not someone that needs to be listened to. They're expecting Second Life to be like the actual games they've been playing until that point.

That is an expectation that needs to stop. As is the expectation of it looking similar. In fact, most expectations in general need to be left at the sign-up page.

This was true years ago and it is still true today.

But hey, keep on mashing that dead horse ...

Edited by Solar Legion
Minor spelling correction
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30 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Ah yes, an Apples to kumquats attempt at an analogy, followed by "advice" that is both far too basic and misplaced.

A New User coming into Second Life and expecting it to function like World of Overwatch 9000: The New Duty is not someone that needs to be listened to. They're expecting Second Life to be like the actual games they've been playing until that point.

That is an expectation that needs to stop. As is the expectation of it looking similar. In fact, most expectation in general need to be left at the sign-up page.

This was true years ago and it is still true today.

But hey, keep on mashing that dead horse ...

I like what he said.  

I have always said SL should come with a starter pamphlet.  

Another good idea perhaps give 200 lindens and a store upon start.  Then the newbie can pick out what they want from some low priced goods and at least learn the different ways to open boxes and to go to a sandbox with a landmark to sandbox as well as notecard explaining there are other sandboxes available in the GUIDE and then newbies at least will know how to open the guide, how to open the rezable kind of box, teleport, and learn the difference between wear and add plus a few other newbie kind of things.  It isn't too much to ask to include some basics for SL starters.    

Edited by FairreLilette
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25 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I like what he said.  

I have always said SL should come with a starter pamphlet.  

Another good idea perhaps give 200 lindens and a store upon start.  Then the newbie can pick out what they want from some low priced goods and at least learn the different ways to open boxes and to go to a sandbox with a landmark to sandbox as well as notecard explaining there are other sandboxes available in the GUIDE and then newbies at least will know how to open the guide, how to open the rezable kind of box, teleport, and learn the difference between wear and add plus a few other newbie kind of things.  It isn't too much to ask to include some basics for SL starters.    

That's nice. What he said is about as related as a fruit is to a brick.

There was - in the past - a decent enough starting area for newer users that covered the absolute basics. It was understood back then that there was much that could not be covered and much that would change over time. These areas also included a freebie "shop" as part of the post Orientation welcome area. You used to be able to see/experience the oldest of the Orientation systems on Orientation Island Public but the last time I looked, much of it was changed/broken and badly out of date. You can also view the quite out of date, old (2006 and before) era Help Island system through Help Island Public (this was the "welcome" island system) as well as the associated freebie area.

With a few updates, there is no good reason to prevent a return to this (or a similar) system.

That is not at all what my quoted response concerned however.

Edited by Solar Legion
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32 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I like what he said.  

I have always said SL should come with a starter pamphlet.  

So do real world kitchen appliances, IKEA sets, tools, toys ... and no one ever reads any of them.

Quote

Another good idea perhaps give 200 lindens and a store upon start. 

People will farm new accounts for the start up cash.

I'd like to see a $10 starter pack from LL that could only be bought by accounts under 30 days old.

  • $8 worth of L$ (to prevent farming and speculating).
  • A premium name change with last name.
  • Whatever else they can dream up.

 

 

Edited by Coffee Pancake
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27 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

So do real world kitchen appliances, IKEA sets, tools, toys ... and no one ever reads any of them.

ROFL!  Well, despite that, well, laughs again, well, I eventually get around to it.  Still too funny but honestly quite true.  

 

28 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

People will farm new accounts for the start up cash.

I'd like to see a $10 starter pack from LL that could only be bought by accounts under 30 days old.

  • $8 worth of L$ (to prevent farming and speculating).
  • A premium name change with last name.
  • Whatever else they can dream up.

 

Yeah, something that wouldn't be farmed.  A way to learn the different ways to open boxes, drag a folder from received to inventory or set as a tab (new idea above), plus teleport, learn where GUIDE is and find more sandboxes, plus learn where a change room is plus how to add/detach.  Some of the basics, yes...somehow...dream up 'something'.   

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