We have the power to make SL a "big thing" again (really) and tip the ongoing narrative, let's do this! c= let's do our part (for our sake)

[Solar Legion]

That's nice. I'd leave them in. If you have no reason to use those function/entries ... don't use them. If you don't understand what they do (no matter how much documentation is given) ... don't use them.

They're little more than "advanced" advanced settings.

Now a case could be made to remove the Admin functions ... However the Lindens tend to use the exact same Viewer they release for general use and have done so for quite some time. Good luck changing that.

[Silent Mistwalker]

9 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Firestorm renames and moves almost everything from the Linden defaults (for .. reasons, I guess).

Has this helped with accessibility or usability ?

It was supposed to but they kind of missed the mark. Some things are easier to find and better named, others went the other way. But that's more what works for the individual. I don't think there is any one way to name some of those things that will be clear as a bell to everyone instantly. 

I do agree there should be some "industry standards" across the board. Meaning the LL viewer and all approved TPVs.

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

What are you comfortable having removed ?

It's not about removing anything but tidying up.

[Drayke Newall]

5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Not about removing stuff but making it easier to navigate through the inventory would be a great start. Old and new users alike find it just as much of a hot mess as you find my quotes in dark theme. Slogging through a typical Mesh body folder requires me to read every entry there to find one specific body, the hud, feet, hands, save stick etc etc. Some new icons differentiating those would be great. Though I realize it is beyond the ability for a tpv dev to change but the ability to rename some no mod items to be more relevant would be nice. The ability to use some thumbnails for items so I don't have to click through a half dozen variants of a body to find the one I am looking for. A Ctrl+Z function so one could step back to a previous worn item. Better search functions within the Inventory. Would be great if one could actually access Inventory through a web page instead of only through a viewer. That should allow for more options in making the stuff more graphical instead of all text based. Point and click.

Whilst I am all for a more streamlined viewer (unlike what Solar seems to always imply, this doesn't mean removal of features but readjusting them to a more user friendly method) the inventory is one aspect that would be very difficult to make user friendly. Even in 99% of games the inventory system is a mess and SL has more inventory than any of them.

There are a few ways that could fix this by say having all your clothing moved out of the inventory and into an 'outfit' ui element and make the creator tick the appropriate category so that it goes into the right outfit area, for example shirt goes into shirt category of the outfit ui screen and you then select that shirt from there. This however is both too much work for LL to even do and would mess up existing content which we know is a big 'no-no'.

I have also on Jira requested many years ago a feature to allow for more icons server side so that you can change the default box icon to say a furniture icon if that object is a piece of furniture. The response was we are to busy at the moment so wont do it.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Alwin Alcott]

8 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Not about......inventory...
... click.

Inventory asks a little maintenance by the user. Let it go for a month and it's a mess .. don't blame LL for that. The structure is totally in control of the user.
Webbased won't change that for the mass.
If that is the biggest issue and urgent ?... let them spend time and money on other things please.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Alwin Alcott

[animats]

Suppose we had "play mode", where there's a very clean screen with very few controls, as Luca suggests,  and "create mode", where the 3D pane shrinks and toolbars appear at top, bottom, and sides?

[lucagrabacr]

3 minutes ago, animats said:

Suppose we had "play mode", where there's a very clean screen with very few controls, as Luca suggests,  and "create mode", where the 3D pane shrinks and toolbars appear at top, bottom, and sides?

Wait I didn't suggest that

[animats]

17 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

Wait I didn't suggest that

In your video on making SL more immersive, you hide almost all the controls and minimize the ones that are left.

[lucagrabacr]

5 minutes ago, animats said:

In your video on making SL more immersive, you hide almost all the controls and minimize the ones that are left.

Ah! I thought you were talking about what I said in this thread, yeah having the UI cleaner certainly helps with immersion c=

[Mollymews]

the viewer ended up with a multitude of controls as it started out as a inworld building tool which morphed into a business tool and then to a social tool, as the user base ratios changed over the years

if the viewer was to be decluttered then it needs to be rebuilt with 3 modes -  Social, Business and Build. With Social being the default for new users

[Alwin Alcott]

46 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

the viewer ended up with a multitude of controls as it started out as a inworld building tool which morphed into a business tool and then to a social tool, as the user base ratios changed over the years

if the viewer was to be decluttered then it needs to be rebuilt with 3 modes -  Social, Business and Build. With Social being the default for new users

many people use the mix .. 3 different modes will get the same warm comments as the long gone light viewer.

[Sid Nagy]

I still remember the day when LL decided to no longer use the pie menu in the viewer.
It is still a miracle the sky didn't fall that day in SL.

Most people hate changes,  having to sort things out again.
Making major changes in the UI would most likely only result in a few  more TPV's to keep the old look and feel.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[Mollymews]

3 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

many people use the mix .. 3 different modes will get the same warm comments as the long gone light viewer.

from some/many of the older accounts yes

a thing is tho that most of the older accounts don't use the linden viewer - they use TPVs in all of their own complexities, so any changes to the linden viewer UI that better suits the new users won't objectively make any difference to these many older

 

[Sid Nagy]

LL is not responsible for updating the TPV's.
It's no reason whatsoever IMHO to do nothing because the majority of oldies uses a TPV.
If their changes turn out to be a success, the TPV's will follow in the end,

And those who have the standard attitude that if it comes from LL it can't be good, will not accept anything that the lab does as good or an improvement. So be it.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[Silent Mistwalker]

8 hours ago, animats said:

Suppose we had "play mode", where there's a very clean screen with very few controls, as Luca suggests,  and "create mode", where the 3D pane shrinks and toolbars appear at top, bottom, and sides?

 

It works in the Sims game. Live Mode and Build Mode. Nothing shrinks in the UI though.

Live Mode:

 

Click on hammer and wrench icon for Build Mode and you get this:

 

[ChinRey]

8 hours ago, Mollymews said:

if the viewer was to be decluttered then it needs to be rebuilt with 3 modes -  Social, Business and Build. With Social being the default for new users

Alternatively a menu item named "Tools" or something like that where you can find all those special functions nicely sorted into sub menus, close at hand but still out of sight until you need them.

I do not know exactly how a user friendly interface should be organised. It's a very complex matter that would require a lot of work, thought and research. There is a reason why software companies hire or commission specialist UI designers for it.

Edited June 6, 2021 by ChinRey

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Alternatively a menu item named "Tools" or something like that where you can find all those special functions nicely sorted into sub menus, close at hand but still out of sight until you need them.

I do not know exactly how a user friendly itnerface should be organised. It's a very complex matter that would require a lot of work, thought and research. There is a reason why software companies hire or commission specialist UI designers for it.

What they need to do when designing or redesigning is use a focus group to test out the usability.  Random people, not people within LL.  People of all ages and backgrounds.  Like toy companies do with new toys.   Is the viewer easy to navigate?  What would make it easier to navigate?  

 

[Coffee Pancake]

11 hours ago, animats said:

Suppose we had "play mode", where there's a very clean screen with very few controls, as Luca suggests,  and "create mode", where the 3D pane shrinks and toolbars appear at top, bottom, and sides?

 

We had exactly that. 

It made zero difference to retention and those of us who did try it complained it was too basic.

[Ardy Lay]

And this line of thinking is what brought us Viewer 2.  Do not forget that Viewer 2 was what happened when Linden Lab hired outside design and development companies to "update" the viewer user interface.

80/20 Studio

Product Engine

Focus groups that are NOT familiar with Second Life determined what was and was not needed by Second Life Residents.

User interface was rearranged to try to make it familiar to the focus group participants.

UI Visual aspects and in-world highlighting were changed to resemble games the people had played.

The importance of text chat was lowered relegated to something that resembled MS Comic Chat.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Ardy Lay

[Ardy Lay]

Apparently my opinion on this hasn't changed much in eleven years.

https://list-archives.secondlife.com/opensource-dev/2010-March/000813.html

Edited June 6, 2021 by Ardy Lay

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Ardy Lay said:

And this line of thinking is what brought us Viewer 2.  Do not forget that Viewer 2 was what happened when Linden Lab hired outside design and development companies to "update" the viewer user interface.

80/20 Studio

Product Engine

Focus groups that are NOT familiar with Second Life determined what was and was not needed by Second Life Residents.

User interface was rearranged to try to make it familiar to the focus group participants.

UI Visual aspects and in-world highlighting were changed to resemble games the people had played.

The importance of text chat was lowered relegated to something that resembled MS Comic Chat.

Product Engine still holds major influence and continues to dictate development/feature implementation behind closed doors.

Sadly, most of the people making policy/development/feature decisions are not users of the platform at any level, recreational nor enthusiast.

[ChinRey]

2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

 

We had exactly that. 

Umm no. This is exactly the opposite of that. That screenshot is even messier than the regular viewer(s), how is that even possible???

Edit - since I get the impression @Coffee Pancake didn't like my post.

"Play mode" or whatever we call it, implies that screen clutter is kept to an absolute minimum. In an ideal virtual world, there would be no clutter at all by default, the entire computer screen filled up by the scene and nothing but the scene. Everything else is hidden until called upon. That's probably not possible but keeping the clutter down to an absolute minimum is crucial both for user friendliness and immersion.

This is the first time I've seen a screenshot from LL infamous simplified viewer and I have to say I'm shocked. No wonder why people hated it so much. But remember, the fact that LL can't do something doesn't mean it's impossible. It only means they are not up to the task or - in this particular case - about as clueless as a triglobite trying to drive a car.

Edited June 6, 2021 by ChinRey

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Ardy Lay said:

And this line of thinking is what brought us Viewer 2.  Do not forget that Viewer 2 was what happened when Linden Lab hired outside design and development companies to "update" the viewer user interface.

80/20 Studio

Product Engine

Focus groups that are NOT familiar with Second Life determined what was and was not needed by Second Life Residents.

User interface was rearranged to try to make it familiar to the focus group participants.

UI Visual aspects and in-world highlighting were changed to resemble games the people had played.

The importance of text chat was lowered relegated to something that resembled MS Comic Chat.

Not to determine what was needed or not needed.  Just to assess the user friendliness of the viewer.  Are things labeled so anyone can understand them.  People who are new come in with no idea of what to expect, just like a focus group would.  Only someone who doesn't know anything about the viewer can tell you if it's easy for someone new coming into SL.  We all have our own biases after awhile regarding viewer usability.  I don't suggest they tell LL what is needed just if what is already there is easy to understand.

[Mollymews]

4 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Alternatively a menu item named "Tools" or something like that where you can find all those special functions nicely sorted into sub menus, close at hand but still out of sight until you need them.

I do not know exactly how a user friendly interface should be organised. It's a very complex matter that would require a lot of work, thought and research. There is a reason why software companies hire or commission specialist UI designers for it.

if it was me then I would redesign the UI with modes in mind. To make modes then this entails user customisable menus, toolbars, tool buttons, docking containers and wizard dialogs.

when do this then both non-programmer users and linden designers can create UI task oriented views (modes) depending on what they are wanting to do. And out of this process does a general consensus arise around common tasks, while at the same time allowing individuals the ability to continue defining the UI as they prefer

[ChinRey]

29 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

if it was me then I would redesign the UI with modes in mind. To make modes then this entails user customisable menus, toolbars, tool buttons, docking containers and wizard dialogs.

Oh yes, a user customizable interface is definitely an interesting idea.