We have the power to make SL a "big thing" again (really) and tip the ongoing narrative, let's do this! c= let's do our part (for our sake)

[Polenth Yue]

1 hour ago, lucagrabacr said:

What MLM jargon? o: 

And I read all the replies, and take them into consideration c= however there is nothing in those replies which convinces me that what I'm proposing nor my actions would be detrimental to my goals, it is an equation in which there can only be an increase in leaning toward the positive values of my predefined parameters of objectives

Basically, you seem to be saying the power of positive thinking solves everything, written in the most purple prose you can write. Which is very much a marketing thing, as they hope it'll impress people. What it often ends up doing is driving people away, as they don't know what any of that actually means. If you come at people with phrases like "the positive values of my predefined parameters of objectives" you've lost them.

I enjoy Second Life and tell people about it, but I do so in plain language and don't pretend that technical issues won't crop up. Most newbies are struggling to get things out of boxes, not looking for a philosophical discussion about the potential of virtual worlds.

[Coffee Pancake]

Philosophical discussions have a huge seat at the table when it comes to Second Life and those alone can be enough motivation to get past the rez day bumps. "This place is broken" (etc) sours the experience and becomes yet another bump the user must overcome.

Second Life isn't a simple proposition and discovering that is a part of the journey, one we're all still here because of.

[AnnabelleApocalypse]

I do think a big hurdle for most people is getting your avi looking good. Or at least not noobish. The feeling of connection to your avatar is a big "moment" on the path of becoming hooked on SL, but many never reach that point.

I came back after a few years away fairly recently and everyone had changed over to mesh bodies in the meantime. I was sooo confused with it all. If I was a total beginner and was confronted with that. pretty sure I would have given up in frustration. 

[animats]

6 minutes ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said:

I do think a big hurdle for most people is getting your avi looking good. Or at least not noobish. The feeling of connection to your avatar is a big "moment" on the path of becoming hooked on SL, but many never reach that point.

If you're a default, the big kids will beat you up and take your lunch money.

That's a real thing in Fortnite. “ In a viral video with 3 million views, one kid describes how classmates would beat him up for not having any Fortnite skins."

I have seen more than one unhappy new player at the Firestorm help island who got stuck with "70s Disco Guy With Radio". That's an insult to new players. The female default, "woman with big floppy hat and dog in purse" is at least good looking.

Since many new SL users will have played Fortnite, and think of a "default" as being bad, that needs to be handled better at entry.

[Coffee Pancake]

In SL. If you're under 30 days old, random people will assume you're a griefer, harass and ban you.

SL is broadly not welcoming to new accounts because of the activities of a tiny number of actual griefers and paranoia.

[PixelBerry]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

In SL. If you're under 30 days old, random people will assume you're a griefer, harass and ban you.

SL is broadly not welcoming to new accounts because of the activities of a tiny number of actual griefers and paranoia.

I honestly find older users more spooky in my opinion, there are bad eggs no matter how old of a user you are of Second life, I become happy whenever I see new people, but the question then is if they are an alt or not.

Edited June 4, 2021 by PixelBerry

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

SL is broadly not welcoming to new accounts because of the activities of a tiny number of actual griefers and paranoia.

I've tried in the past with new users, the biggest problem I think is that there is so much they need to know.It takes a lot of patience and I personally have about five minute's worth of it. However, I've also found quite a few new users are actually returnees, looking for a fresh start.

I am starting to wonder if SL has become specialised to the point where it can't be promoted widely to all and sundry as the OP hopes it could be, simply because there is so much to explain, starting with "How do I play this game?" and then going on to explain Gor, RP, ...

I honestly think the best thing we can do to prolong SL as an active thing is to help it financially. Spend money on land, clothes, toys, tips, ... Linden's principal revenue source is their percentage they get from all of that. So long as it's a healthy percentage they're not going to be looking for a wind-up strategy.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[Mr Amore]

What does Second Life need for sustainable growth?

New Players.

 

What happens to new players who install the Second Life viewer?

They are traumatized by the harrowing UI experience and uninstall it 30 minutes later.

 

I recently used the official viewer and even as a seasoned SL'er, I was lost. The interface is confusing and the search was utterly dysfunctional. Telling new residents to install Firestorm is not the answer, most will never stay in the game long enough to learn about TPVs.

 

Nothing will change until LL rollback the hideous changes to the official client and finally trash the 'web search' panel. Even reviving the SL client from a decade ago would result in a cleaner first-time-user experience than the present.

 

 

[Coffee Pancake]

It was always hard to get new users to commit to SL with their wallet right at the start and that resistance hasn't really changed, only now the base avatar is a obsolete distraction and a socially acceptable one comes with a bewildering array of options and a price tag.

Sure, people have gone to the trouble of showing what can be accomplished with a limited or zero L$ budget, but that's neither an accessible or scalable solution.

[animats]

21 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

I a starting to wonder if SL has become specialized to the point where it can't be promoted widely to all and sundry as the OP hopes it could be, simply because there is so much to explain, starting with "How do I play this game?" and then going on to explain Furries, Gor, RP,

I've likened entering SL to arriving in a new city. The city offers a broad range of things, gives you little guidance, and is indifferent to you. For some people, this is a challenge. (Famously, Madonna arrived in NYC at the Port Authority Bus Terminal, alone, and clawed her way up from there.) Others are totally overwhelmed.

An easy path for the totally overwhelmed would help.

There's the opposite approach.

"Can you handle the Metaverse?"

You start with a basic avatar and no money. Then it's all up to you. Second Life has the best looking avatars of any virtual world - if you can buy or make or find a good one. Second Life lets you build almost anything - if you can create objects in 3D. Second Life has roleplay - if you can meet the standards of the roleplay groups. Second Life has profitable businesses - if you can run a business.  Second Life even has sex - if you can find someone who will have sex with you.

Second Life. It's not just a game. It's a whole world. On hard mode.

[PixelBerry]

Sometimes I like to imagine myself as a new user, to imagine the first impression people would have when finding out about Second life. 

What is the first thing people usually do when finding out about a game or something along those lines? YouTube, a trailer, or something that can give people a visual of what Second life is and what you can do within it.

I'm still waiting for a video that shows Second life for what it really is, There hasn't been a video for me personally that really hit the nail for me, that made me scream "Yeah that is Second life alright! ".

The video with the most views is the video by Videogamedunkey that came out in 2016 which doesn't really paint Second life in a good way at all, shows clips of trolling, mocking and bad avatars, and the comment section of it really shows what people's first expression of Second life is/was.

On the other hand, it probably did attract "weirdos" or people who are curious and got interested in Second life, but for most part it probably weirded them out, making them not give Second life a chance at all, I do assume that most people who know of Second life thinks it's a *****ed up "game" for "outcasts" with only sex and weird kinks in mind, or "outcasts" who doesn't have a life and takes this "game" too seriously ( like the typical MC people who ends up being the victims in the trolling videos ).

Sadly the more positive videos never really get the views or attention that the other types of videos does, but even then as I said earlier, the videos that exists doesn't really show what Second life really is, they don't really hit the nail, perhaps it's only me that sees it that way.

But let's imagine as a new user, finally finding a decent video of Second life, and get's interested. Now I will have to create an account, the Second life webpage has always looked bland to me, it's probably one of the least important things to care about, but it does leave an impression, even the Second life page in my opinion doesn't showcase what Second life is about, it doesn't even scratch the surface.

As a new user, I probably expect to look alright right away, the decent videos shows decent avies, the pictures on the webpage shows decent avies... then you logg on for the first time, with a not completely Ruth but still a Ruth avatar and yeah I would probably feel tricked and confused as to why I look so different compared to what I have seen so far.

So then I probably realize, ah that is probably because they have spent money on this "game", but where the ***** do I go now? How do I do this and that? How do I make myself look better? Alright they have learned me the basics with these tutorials, but I don't know what to do now, everyone is quiet and standing there like dead penguins.

There is another issue with Second life and that is how scattered it is, for people to stay up to date with events better is via the seraphim website, for people to stay up to date with products is via the flickr website, to share the snapshots with other Second life users I will have to use the flickr website because that is the more popular alternative, we have the forums of course but it is dead compared to flickr, for people to ask for general Second life issues they have to use the forum, but from my own experience a lot of the responses that people have gotten is snarky, the forum itself doesn't get used much by the people within Second life either, so people's impression is that Second life is pretty empty, people don't know where to go or where to find people. Heck even the groups doesn't even work and made creators make discord channels to give people help and news for their products. So yeah scattered. For new users to know these things, they will need to find people or ask the forums, perhaps they don't even know if there are alternatives like that to begin with so they never ask, basically Second life turns into a confusing mess for new people that even bothered to give Second life a chance and probably scared them away right away, unless they meet someone really nice that uses time to learn them things, of course there are youtube videos but even then people have a lot of confusion and questions.

Sorry for the long post. :U

 

 

 

 

 

[Sid Nagy]

Strangely nobody talks about the adult content.
The white elephant in the room, where everybody knows about, but it is treated as if the Voldemort of SL.

Look at what the best sellers are on the marketplace.

Chairs and couches has 6 sit poses these days, dozens of cuddle poses and tons of adult movements.
Same goes for refrigerators, barbecues, boats, outdoor furniture, even walls lately.

Taken that into consideration, the vast majority must be in SL for the adult part (too).

Maybe that should be advertised a bit more.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[PixelBerry]

4 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

Strangely nobody talks about the adult content.
The white elephant in the room, where everybody knows about, but it is treated as if the Voldemort of SL.

Look at what the best sellers are on the marketplace.

Chairs and couches has 6 sit poses these days, dozens of cuddle poses and tons of adult movements.
Same goes for refrigerators, barbecues, boats, outdoor furniture, even walls lately.

Taken that into consideration, the vast majority must be in SL for the adult part (too).

Maybe that should be advertised a bit more.

I feel like the adult content part has become more normalized over the years, I mean there has always been adult content in SL but I feel like it's become so normal compared to the earlier days. 

[Sid Nagy]

5 minutes ago, PixelBerry said:

I feel like the adult content part has become more normalized over the years, I mean there has always been adult content in SL but I feel like it's become so normal compared to the earlier days. 

I don't know, I'm pretty much an a-sexual person so that part of SL is not my beer.
What I noticed is, that 14 years ago there were sex beds and some very specialized toys for adults.
Now a days it  is harder to find pg furniture than adult ones.
So my bet is that there must have been an increase in the adult activity department over the years.
Why not advertise it.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[AnnabelleApocalypse]

I definitely think there was a period of time when LL were ashamed of the adult content side of things. There were some rather unfortunate scandals. The FBI got involved if I remember correctly?

Nowadays I think they are much more at peace with it, but that's not the same as actively promoting it. Which they definitely don't do. 

[Coffee Pancake]

2 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

What I noticed is, that 14 years ago there were sex beds and some very specialized toys for adults.
Now a days it  is harder to find pg furniture than adult ones.

14 years ago the technology was still in it's infancy, today it's easy to just grab an off the shelf animation package.

[AnnabelleApocalypse]

Quote

Now a days it  is harder to find pg furniture than adult ones.

Its because they know they can just chuck some basic slex anims in there and charge (At least) 1000L$ more.

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

Do you have one for a Hawaii Burger with French fries as a side order as well?

 

 

[Sahfur Silvera]

I certainly adore LL as a company despite any of their flaws/failed ventures in the past. They implemented many things like animesh and bake on mesh to update stuff and improve things as of recent years and they are a company that doesn't step on our personal freedoms within the platform, which is nearly unheard of for a company. They give us a very long leash. They genuinely seem primarily driven by their support of the platform and potential others like it. I don't think its unreasonable for us to support the community we are a part of. If people only did stuff they were "paid to do" then stuff would fall apart pretty fast.

I do what I can at times to bring new players to the platform but it can be a little daunting for them to learn the new systems I suppose. It really comes down to what they are exposed to first - if I take them to a really cool place with cool avatars they will tend to get more interested. Some of the scripting "nerds" I try to show SL can be a bit turned off by the "limited" scripting or the latency which can make some stuff like in-world shooter games lag behind. I have to remind them about the workarounds we have, and teach them the UI, etc. The fact of the matter is nothing "better" exists unless you count full body tracking as a "be all end all" feature. There is even an updated VR viewer, now.

There are certainly many misconceptions about the platform (I think some people think the game looks dated even though some of the best screenshots from games in existence are from SL) but I think the primary thing keeping us from getting new players is the limited amount of people willing to teach those new players in a way that lets them jump the hurdle of the initial confusion they have when they start learning how to use the systems in place. On one hand a dumbed down UI would be a mistake as it kills off the feeling of immersing yourself in something more deep.. so obviously making stuff too simple is a bad idea. On the other hand, many of those players just don't have the patience to learn stuff, it takes time to learn some of the words and what they mean. 

What is an alpha? A prim? How do you link and unlink prims? Etc.. This is second nature if you have been playing for a few months/years but a new player will often either give up or as we have seen do the bare minimum amount of learning they need to accomplish whatever goal they have and possibly miss out on any room for growth that would open the platform and let it shine.

I think access to better tutorials might help with user retention, which I am sure exist but then theres the problem of getting the people to actually read the manual/watch the tutorial and most people skip those in games because most games are kind of just the same thing over and over. Even then, they won't know the spots that look good, will ignore the destinations list and end up in some area that looks like it is from 2007 (no offense) which will kill their enthusiasm.

Anyway, I certainly agree with you that spreading the platform through the users is something we should be doing, but like people have said the official advertising often avoids talking about certain things you can do and focuses entirely on the social aspect. People can already be social on whatever MMO they play or discord. That doesn't "grip" someone. Maybe it wouldn't be terrible if some adverts promoted the creation, artistic, roleplay, etc side of things - even the adult parts. Being banned from twitch is a problem as far as advertising goes, certainly. I often wish I (or someone else) could just stream exploring some of the beautiful areas but our streaming options are I guess limited.

Also, rewarding people who make high quality free nonspecific (stuff that doesn't require something else to work) stuff for new players and putting it front and center in some sort of directory/listing would probably help infrastructure too on some level. Finding free stuff isn't hard, but finding free stuff that might be useful to a new player without requiring something else is harder for a new player. Those nice gift dresses for maitreya/whatever are nice, but they don't help a new player who doesn't have maitreya (or whatever other body) and wading through the listings will take its toll on them. I often think about how like, there are so many free bodies, heads and clothing on the marketplace that are kinda hidden away and I try to keep up with those things for when I help new people but it can be hard (though we usually just end up pooling some linden from our group and buying them proper stuff instead if we think they will keep playing, usually anime stuff since anime stuff is kinda inexpensive and easy to work with for a new player comparatively).

TLDR;

If we want more new players we have to put our best foot forward during their new user experience. I don't really know how to best do that. Simplify how easy it is to get in and established while making people fully aware of some of the more in depth things they can do, I guess. People often play games on their steam list for like 5 minutes before moving to another game and never play the previous one again because it is like speed dating these days. 

Edited June 5, 2021 by Sahfur Silvera
typo

[Kittie Hexem]

7 hours ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said:

I do think a big hurdle for most people is getting your avi looking good. Or at least not noobish. The feeling of connection to your avatar is a big "moment" on the path of becoming hooked on SL, but many never reach that point.

I came back after a few years away fairly recently and everyone had changed over to mesh bodies in the meantime. I was sooo confused with it all. If I was a total beginner and was confronted with that. pretty sure I would have given up in frustration. 

This is really valid. 

I always share my mesh project WIPs on my RL social media and so many people comment things like "I tried SL because it seemed cool but I couldn't figure out how to do anything so I gave up." In my experience of hearing friends' stories, very few people actually reach the point where they love their avatar and want to log back in. For me the SL experience is at least 25% logging in to create looks with my avatar, and if I didn't know how or couldn't do it, I probably wouldn't log in either. I was fortunate that a friend brought me to SL and walked me through creating my first avatar, and fortunate in the fact that I am never afraid to approach someone and ask questions. 

[Kittie Hexem]

2 hours ago, Sahfur Silvera said:

 

Also, rewarding people who make high quality free nonspecific (stuff that doesn't require something else to work) stuff for new players and putting it front and center in some sort of directory/listing would probably help infrastructure too on some level. Finding free stuff isn't hard, but finding free stuff that might be useful to a new player without requiring something else is harder for a new player. Those nice gift dresses for maitreya/whatever are nice, but they don't help a new player who doesn't have maitreya (or whatever other body) and wading through the listings will take its toll on them. I often think about how like, there are so many free bodies, heads and clothing on the marketplace that are kinda hidden away and I try to keep up with those things for when I help new people but it can be hard (though we usually just end up pooling some linden from our group and buying them proper stuff instead if we think they will keep playing, usually anime stuff since anime stuff is kinda inexpensive and easy to work with for a new player comparatively).

 

THIS! How amazing would it be if LL would provide a space that is highly visible to new players for creators to offer gifts? I'd be so happy do offer items or even a gift card to my store for new players. All of the freebie malls are so outdated and frankly the items within suck. Honestly this is an amazing idea and I'm going to reach out to some people and see if it's something that we can make happen! 

I would also happily participate in an "adopt a newbie" type of thing to help new players get oriented. 

This is the kind of thing that the Virtual Existence Society in SL can work on to help the platform grow. ^^ 

[ChinRey]

11 hours ago, Mr Amore said:

Telling new residents to install Firestorm is not the answer, most will never stay in the game long enough to learn about TPVs.

Firestorm isn't more user friendly than the official viewer anyway, if anything it's marginally worse. You may be comfortable with it but that's because it's what you're familiar with.

 

[TheDarkhand]

with my sim payment and account  I pay 3,400 USD a year, if  you buy land (from LL not rental) and take part of the economy and pay for account that alone would help 10000x, over free accounts and novel ideas asking others to shell out more seem fruitless. They will expand marketing with more income, that is how a business works.

[Sid Nagy]

It is LL that offers free accounts. Not me.
And from rented land almost every L$ ends up in LL's pockets as well.
The landlord earns a few by doing a lot of footwork for LL in the customer service and care department.

And besides, if someone doesn't want to live on the IMO still terribly ugly and desolate mainland, there is very little other choice than to rent from private land owners. Or one has to end up in beautiful but totally laggy Bellisseria.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Sid Nagy

[FairreLilette]

15 hours ago, Mr Amore said:

What does Second Life need for sustainable growth?

New Players.

 

What happens to new players who install the Second Life viewer?

They are traumatized by the harrowing UI experience and uninstall it 30 minutes later.

 

I recently used the official viewer and even as a seasoned SL'er, I was lost. The interface is confusing and the search was utterly dysfunctional. Telling new residents to install Firestorm is not the answer, most will never stay in the game long enough to learn about TPVs.

 

Nothing will change until LL rollback the hideous changes to the official client and finally trash the 'web search' panel. Even reviving the SL client from a decade ago would result in a cleaner first-time-user experience than the present.

 

 

I couldn't agree more.  There really is no excuse for LL not seeing how useful FS was and importing THOSE FS features into the official SL viewer.  I always wonder what are the Linden's thinking by not adopting the liked FS features into the LL viewer.

I went on the official SL viewer as I believe the new EEP FS gave me a horrible bug and I have to do a clean install which sounds like a mega hassle and a half and I'm dreading it.  The LL viewer updates used to be automatic and hassle-free.

It's just weird to new residents that the company they are trusting their money with when they go payment info on file, there is another viewer for the game and their money.  

Edited June 5, 2021 by FairreLilette