Are ban lines mandatory whenever any Adult content occurs in a Moderate region?

[Jaauuwn]

I have some questions about the following knowledge base statement from Jeremy Linden on 'Managing your parcel' vs. Adult Content FAQ from Official Second Life Wiki page

This is what I consider one of the most eternally confusing subjects in SL regardless of how many past Forum topics I have read on the subject.

To address the subject of Adult content in Moderate regions does selecting the 'Must be 18+' checkbox really mean anything when meeting the definitions for 'Behind Closed Doors' as defined in the Official Second Life Wiki page requires much more stringent measures including one can assume mandatory use of ban lines?

I have always gone with the more stringent "Behind Closed Doors" definition when my parcels contain Adult content but I also absolutely hate to use ban lines if I do not have to. Not only because I hate them but because they are a nuisance to others. All other requirements are easy enough to meet without complaint.

If checking the 'Must be 18+' checkbox was the only requirement that's all I would do. The statement below clearly acknowledges a situation where adult content might occur on a Moderate parcel yet no reference to requiring ban lines per the "behind closed doors" definition. We can assume it would be a Moderate parcel as any adult content would absolutely be forbidden in a General region and the whole point of Adult regions is to accommodate adult content (making the option redundant).

Any clarification would be appreciated. Thank you.

<<The following is from Jeremy Linden's knowledge base statement>>

Age restriction

You can restrict access to parcels and estates you own or manage based on whether users are over 18 years old and whether they have payment information on file with Linden Lab.

Important: If your land contains adult content, as defined by the Second Life Maturity Ratings, it is your responsibility to restrict access only to those who are at least 18 years old.

To restrict parcel access:

1. Choose World > About Land. Alternatively, right-click the ground and choose About Land.
2. In the ABOUT LAND window, click the ACCESS tab.
   Make sure Allow Public Access is checked.
3. To restrict access to those who are at least 18 years old, check Must be 18+.
4. To restrict access to those who have registered a payment method (such as a credit card or PayPal) with Linden Lab, check Must have payment info on file.

<< The following is from the Official Second Life Wiki page under Adult Content FAQ>>

What does "behind closed doors" mean?

Adult activity on Moderate land must be conducted "behind closed doors," meaning that you must make every reasonable effort to ensure that the parcel is private. This means:

• Allow only a group or specific individuals access to the parcel. If it is group-access only, the group must not be freely open to join. 
• Hide avatars (turn off avatar visibility) for the parcel.
• Enclose the area behind walls or other visual barriers.

 

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

There are different interpretations floating about, but for what it's worth, whenever I have adult content in a Moderate region, I use an orb, not ban lines. 

[Rowan Amore]

If you check the box where avatars on other parcels can't see avatars on your parcel, any adult activity can't be seen as indicated above.  A security orb will.keep others off of your parcel.  That's all that is needed.  If erotic pictures are in your home, that is considered 'behind closed doors'   Neighbors could complain but I've never had anyone do so in 12 years.  I also either have the land around my home landscaped or enclosed in a skybox where someone would have to make an effort to see in.  

[Qie Niangao]

46 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

 Neighbors could complain but I've never had anyone do so in 12 years.

Yeah, that sounds right, but it may depend on the neighbors and, especially, any "enemies" who might discover a way to make one's life miserable with Abuse Reports. So if the OP is running a club or something similarly alluring to sociopaths, there's pretty much no way to prevent trouble no matter what you do.

One thing I wonder about is the actual meaning of "Must be 18+". (I wonder more about how the website indexing can be so b0rked that there's no way to find that string in search, and how there can be no viewer context help anymore. For anybody else hunting, the OP's cited Knowledge Base reference is here and the "official Adult content FAQ" wiki reference is here.) I'm pretty sure the parcel setting dates back to when LL tried to use a third-party age verification service, so once upon a time "18+" meant something, but even then it never meant much.

Question: If a parcel is set to disallow avatars on other parcels to see inside, and with just the 18+ access restriction, could somebody "under 18" fly into the parcel above banline height and look down onto all the naughtiness below?

[Rowan Amore]

21 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah, that sounds right, but it may depend on the neighbors and, especially, any "enemies" who might discover a way to make one's life miserable with Abuse Reports. So if the OP is running a club or something similarly alluring to sociopaths, there's pretty much no way to prevent trouble no matter what you do.

One thing I wonder about is the actual meaning of "Must be 18+". (I wonder more about how the website indexing can be so b0rked that there's no way to find that string in search, and how there can be no viewer context help anymore. For anybody else hunting, the OP's cited Knowledge Base reference is here and the "official Adult content FAQ" wiki reference is here.) I'm pretty sure the parcel setting dates back to when LL tried to use a third-party age verification service, so once upon a time "18+" meant something, but even then it never meant much.

Question: If a parcel is set to disallow avatars on other parcels to see inside, and with just the 18+ access restriction, could somebody "under 18" fly into the parcel above banline height and look down onto all the naughtiness below?

Technically, anyone under 18 is supposed to be restricted to General areas.  

16-17 years old you can access regions and search results that have a General maturity rating.

You shouldn't have to set your land to over 18 if it's set to moderate or adult.  If someone is under 18, THEY are the ones in breach of ToS.

[Lewis Luminos]

5 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Question: If a parcel is set to disallow avatars on other parcels to see inside, and with just the 18+ access restriction, could somebody "under 18" fly into the parcel above banline height and look down onto all the naughtiness below?

Only if they lied about their age when they registered. Residents aged 16/17 are allowed on only G rated land, and adult activity of any kind is not allowed there, even behind closed doors.

But someone over 18 could do that, if they felt so inclined.

[LittleMe Jewell]

13 hours ago, Jaauuwn said:

What does "behind closed doors" mean?

 

Here is a comment that Abnor made when some similar conversations came up in regards to the Linden Homes, which are on Moderate regions and do not even allow being able to set to 'group only' access (i.e. ban lines for all others):

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Jaauuwn]

3 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Here is a comment that Abnor made when some similar conversations came up in regards to the Linden Homes, which are on Moderate regions and do not even allow being able to set to 'group only' access (i.e. ban lines for all others):

Glad to hear that. Thanks for sharing. I hope SL adopts that policy for Belliseria throughout all other mainland regions.

Many people only use ban lines because they interpret their use to be mandatory for fear some snoopy individual will file an Abuse Report against them when said individual has gone out of their way to pry in or cam into their adult activities. Personally I could care less about 'Privacy' for it's own sake and feel that if someone is going to jump through so many hoops just to see what I am doing on my own parcel they should either join in on the action or shut up!!!

If I had my say I would consider meeting all other parameters of "behind closed doors" (as Linden Labs defines it) as more than adequate to keep things generally private. Security orbs are a better alternative but I think their use should be optional just for those that want the extra privacy. I welcome the unsuspecting visitor and think that's part of what makes RP interesting.

Ban lines are too much of a blunt instrument and to address one "problem" they cause a whole magnitude of other problems for the rest of the SL community.

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Jaauuwn said:

Glad to hear that. Thanks for sharing. I hope SL adopts that policy for Belliseria throughout all other mainland regions.

Many people only use ban lines because they interpret their use to be mandatory for fear some snoopy individual will file an Abuse Report against them when said individual has gone out of their way to pry in or cam into their adult activities. Personally I could care less about 'Privacy' for it's own sake and feel that if someone is going to jump through so many hoops just to see what I am doing on my own parcel they should either join in on the action or shut up!!!

If I had my say I would consider meeting all other parameters of "behind closed doors" (as Linden Labs defines it) as more than adequate to keep things generally private. Security orbs are a better alternative but I think their use should be optional just for those that want the extra privacy. I welcome the unsuspecting visitor and think that's part of what makes RP interesting.

Ban lines are too much of a blunt instrument and to address one "problem" they cause a whole magnitude of other problems for the rest of the SL community.

Also, neither ban lines nor security orbs can prevent people from camming into your parcel or home.  That is where "behind closed doors" comes in and why LL implemented the feature to not let others see avatars on another parcel.  You might still cam in and see the bed but you can't see the people on it.

[Jaauuwn]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

Also, neither ban lines nor security orbs can prevent people from camming into your parcel or home.  That is where "behind closed doors" comes in and why LL implemented the feature to not let others see avatars on another parcel.  You might still cam in and see the bed but you can't see the people on it.

Yes that makes sense but I think the big question is that when LL defines the 3 parameters for "behind closed doors" (repeated excerpt from Adult Content FAQ below) do they mean all 3 items in combination or at least 1 of them? My assumption is they mean all 3 because without either hiding avatars or enclosing the area you could still see everything from just across a parcel line. It's the first item specifying individual or group-access only that really throws the wrench in everything.

21 hours ago, Jaauuwn said:

Adult activity on Moderate land must be conducted "behind closed doors," meaning that you must make every reasonable effort to ensure that the parcel is private. This means:

• Allow only a group or specific individuals access to the parcel. If it is group-access only, the group must not be freely open to join. 
• Hide avatars (turn off avatar visibility) for the parcel.
• Enclose the area behind walls or other visual barriers.

Logically I would think 'Hide avatars' would be the only requirement unless that check box was not selected whereby 'Enclosing the area behind walls or other visual barriers' would apply. Any other adult content such as erotic art would be enclosed behind same sort of visual barriers.

As you said in most situations (assuming the only adult content is in the scripted objects) viewing from outside the parcel you just see an empty parcel with buildings and furniture. This is as tame as tame can be! I don't think anyone is going to mentally damaged at the sight of an empty bed or chair! From outside parcel everything looks like the same ghost town environment we are used to in SL.

Provided the 'Must be 18+' check box actually means something I am hoping LL will consider eliminating the ban-line requirement altogether. Hopefully now that LL removed the ban-line option in Belliseria means they might reconsider it's utility on rest of mainland. If 'Must be 18+' literally means nothing now that is like having a vestigial part.

I also understand many people that are 18+ may not care to see any sort of adult content even if just a scripted bed or chair. To that I say use some caution when wondering through other peoples parcels and be careful where you sit!

[Aethelwine]

It is badly worded but I have always read it in the context as meaning one of those in the list is sufficient. Group access\Ban lines do nothing for furniture in a skybox and unreasonable to expect them to be used ineffectively. They can't refer to or require orbs in their policy because up until recently they have always been something you bought from a third party.

Behind close doors then means at a minimum nothing more than behind a visual barrier, such as walls.

The Cheungs in the Seychelles require the additional parcel privacy option of not being able to see avatars on other parcels, so if you sail through the Seychelles with passengers your passengers and crew are constantly flickering on and off as you pass through their parcels. which is a nuisance. But then the Seychelles has a lot of daft rules like no autoreturn on objects, which however you look at it is just stupid in an area set up for sailing as the first thing their renters will have to do each day is check for stranded lost boats and planes. None of the other landlords require those settings to be compliant with the ratings. 

The ambiguity of interpretation of the policy doesn't help. Personally if I want to be exhibitionist I will go to an adult region for that, on moderate I will keep things in a skybox away from prying eyes protected by my walls and distance from the ground. I don't use banlines or any other parcel privacy options, and wouldn't use an orb either. 

I suppose if I wanted to bump pixels on my boat at ground level or a sexy deckchair, I would use and recommend the setting to not let others see into the parcel, to function then as a wall to be discrete but only put that on while I was bumping those pixels.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Aethelwine

[Jaauuwn]

1 hour ago, Aethelwine said:

Group access\Ban lines do nothing for furniture in a skybox and unreasonable to expect them to be used ineffectively.

That makes a lot of sense. I completely forgot about the context with skyboxes and the fact that ban lines only extend to 50 meters above the surface.

[LittleMe Jewell]

8 hours ago, Jaauuwn said:

the big question is that when LL defines the 3 parameters for "behind closed doors" (repeated excerpt from Adult Content FAQ below) do they mean all 3 items in combination or at least 1 of them? My assumption is they mean all 3 because without either hiding avatars or enclosing the area you could still see everything from just across a parcel line. It's the first item specifying individual or group-access only that really throws the wrench in everything.

Based on the comment that Abnor made about the Linden Homes, they cannot mean all three -- because you cannot set Linden Homes to only a specific group or set of individuals.

I did not take his comments to only be about Linden Homes, but about Adult content on Moderate land generally.

[Abnor Mole]

The operative phrase there is "every reasonable effort". If the estate does not allow you to set the parcel for group access only then you can't be expected to have done that, but the other two points should still be followed I should think. 

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

5 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Based on the comment that Abnor made about the Linden Homes, they cannot mean all three -- because you cannot set Linden Homes to only a specific group or set of individuals.

I use the LH orb to set my LH parcel to "group only". 

[Jaauuwn]

38 minutes ago, Abnor Mole said:

The operative phrase there is "every reasonable effort". If the estate does not allow you to set the parcel for group access only then you can't be expected to have done that, but the other two points should still be followed I should think.

Based on that I guess we would have to assume the conclusion is that use of ban lines is mandatory (when offered as option) when any adult content is present regardless of whether anyone wants them or not. Were LL to more actively enforce this we could see a significant increase in use of ban lines than we already have making navigation pure hell.

If the answer is that anyone with adult content should just move to Zindra I think it begs the question as to what is supposed to be the difference between General and Moderate regions?

A counter argument might be made that some people in Moderate regions should just move to a General region.

I feel this is an area where LL may be shooting themselves in the foot. Particularly when you consider the vast areas of mainland in Moderate regions that are sparsely populated and the current amount of abandoned land.

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, Jaauuwn said:

Based on that I guess we would have to assume the conclusion is that use of ban lines is mandatory (when offered as option) when any adult content is present regardless of whether anyone wants them or not. Were LL to more actively enforce this we could see a significant increase in use of ban lines than we already have making navigation pure hell.

If the answer is that anyone with adult content should just move to Zindra I think it begs the question as to what is supposed to be the difference between General and Moderate regions?

A counter argument might be made that some people in Moderate regions should just move to a General region.

I feel this is an area where LL may be shooting themselves in the foot. Particularly when you consider the vast areas of mainland in Moderate regions that are sparsely populated and the current amount of abandoned land.

You're making it more difficult than it is.  I've been renting in SL for 12 years.  Mostly on moderate regions.  No one has ever complained about anyone having adult furniture set out.  When SL implemented the "avatars on other parcels can't see avatars on your parcel" option, NO ONE can see what you're doing.  Set your security to group only, throw up some trees and done.  No one under 18 should even be in moderate or adult regions.  If they are, they can be reported, not you.  Don't create an issue where one doesn't exist.

[Aethelwine]

11 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

You're making it more difficult than it is.  I've been renting in SL for 12 years.  Mostly on moderate regions.  No one has ever complained about anyone having adult furniture set out.  When SL implemented the "avatars on other parcels can't see avatars on your parcel" option, NO ONE can see what you're doing.  Set your security to group only, throw up some trees and done.  No one under 18 should even be in moderate or adult regions.  If they are, they can be reported, not you.  Don't create an issue where one doesn't exist.

Your suggestion would put you in violation of the policies of many of the large estate owners that people rent from that ban the use of ban lines such as those created by setting group access. The CLPP specifically prohibits regions from using them, and yet operates the same way that Bellisseria does.

I think the importance is on the reasonableness... reasonable doesn't require you to restrict access at ground level when your adult stuff is up in the sky and the restriction that appears to be mandated has no effect except to cause a nuisance to neighbours and travellers. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Aethelwine

[Rowan Amore]

8 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

 

 

8 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

Your suggestion would put you in violation of the policies of many of the large estate owners that people rent from that ban the use of ban lines such as those created by setting group access. The CLPP specifically prohibits regions from using them, and yet operates the same way that Bellisseria does.

I think the importance is on the reasonableness... reasonable doesn't require you to restrict access at ground level when your adult stuff is up in the sky and the restriction that appears to be mandated has no effect except to cause a nuisance to neighbours and travellers. 

I did say set your security not your land access.  Every place I've ever lived allowed security orbs.  

Edited May 29, 2021 by Rowan Amore